What training style do you practice?

[Whirlgirl]

We do not have a Yorkie yet (but goodness, patience is difficult when waiting for a new family member!), but the method we practice with out beagle is positive reinforcement, and also this new technique we've read up on called "The Third Way". We've just started using this technique and it's really nice! We're practicing.

Here is an excerpt of "The Third Way" method from http://www.unleashyourself.biz :

"THE THIRD WAY is about motivating your dog to perform the desired behaviors on a voluntary basis. We do not make the dog do anything. Instead, we teach you to create situations in which your dog chooses to perform the desired behaviors. Rather than coerce or arouse your dog, we focus on giving your dog information and reinforcing your dog for being calm and focused, even in the presence of distractions. This results in better trained, more reliable dogs and better dog/owner relationships. THE THIRD WAY eliminates the problems caused by using suppression, arousal or luring to make a dog perform.


A dog has to be doing the desired response in order for it to become voluntary


They have to be performing that response and not be lured into it. This is why we do not use lure training. Lure training doesn't allow for habits to happen. Lure training teaches the dog to get into the habit of following the food; it doesn¹t get them into the habit of performing the behavior. It is not as effective as THE THIRD WAY."

[MikaTallulah]

Caesar Milan had an episode on last week that had Yorkies. I did not see him use a collar on the dogs at all but I did get up at one point to take "Cozy" out. I like his techique and have a friend that used him for her Shepard. Her Shepard was nuts before and had even attacked other dogs in the home. The one dog that her dog attacked was in puppy ICU for two months. Her dog is so sweet and well behaved now. But he is not for everyone.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by browniesmom622

everything becomes a debate !

Debates can be very enlightening as long as it remains civil. I love a good argument with a worthy opponant. I should have been in debate.

I'm Actually enjoying the whole thing, mainly because I don't really care one way or another. I just want to know why Erin feels so strongly against Cesar Milan, when she really hasn't watched him enough to make a judgement.

I like his ability to change a dogs behavior just by educating the people on how dog packs work. As for training, I use a variety of methods, whatever works. I am interesting in loooking into the method that Whirlgirl mentioned. I've never heard of it. But if it works, hey I'm game for anything.

Right now we are working on down, that is a hard one, but the method I'm trying is one I had never heard about before. So we'll see.

[Erin]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Debates can be very enlightening as long as it remains civil. I love a good argument with a worthy opponant. I should have been in debate.

I'm Actually enjoying the whole thing, mainly because I don't really care one way or another. I just want to know why Erin feels so strongly against Cesar Milan, when she really hasn't watched him enough to make a judgement.

I like his ability to change a dogs behavior just by educating the people on how dog packs work. As for training, I use a variety of methods, whatever works. I am interesting in loooking into the method that Whirlgirl mentioned. I've never heard of it. But if it works, hey I'm game for anything.

Right now we are working on down, that is a hard one, but the method I'm trying is one I had never heard about before. So we'll see.

Jeanie,
First of all, how am I not being civil? Second, there is no way that you "don't really care one way or another" or you wouldn't continue this and argue with me on every thread. I just try to give my best advice and let you give your nonsense about a puppy doing puppy things because he doesn't respect them. I just hope my advice helps the person out.

The problem is that the research does not agree with what he says and does. So he is "educating" people incorrectly. The other problem is that I absolutely DO NOT agree with his methods. (The "bite your dog with your hand like a mouth" thing is ridiculous. Dogs KNOW we are not dogs. Some viewer is going to get their hand bitten if they keep that up.) You have to understand that these are OLD methods that most trainers do not follow any more. That is why positive trainers dislike him so much - they have come so far in helping dogs and the Cesar makes it "cool" to intimidate your dog. Why would you indimidate your dog into doing something rather than simply asking him? And if you don't believe that is what he is doing, then all I can ask you to do is your own further research because you will not believe just me saying it.

I have seen about 3 episodes. I choose not to see more because they make me sick. He uses flooding and other techniques that I consider to be cruel. I don't know how you can possibly expect me to like a show where the dogs physically show how stressed they are and Cesar is doing terrible things to them. I'm sorry but I suppose we will never agree. I have posted many different articles and book references to support my opinion. Others have posted similar things, saying they also dislike Cesar but you continue to attack me personally. You have posted nothing to back up your claim, you simply want to accuse me of being wrong. (I stopped posting over a day ago and you continue to try to provoke me.) Why should I continue to argue my point? I'm sure that no one else is reading this thread and gaining much from it any more. If I'm going to get attacked on every thread for giving positive training advice and pointing out obvious holes in Cesar's methods when they are suggested, I'm not going to post here any more.

If you *really* are interested in both sides, READ Patricia McConnell's The Other End of the Leash. It's not a "how-to" training book. It's a book about how to understand your dog better. That book belongs on every dog owner's book shelf.

I'm sure you'll have the last word, so go ahead...

[judyeve]

I've been reading this thread and the thread abut choke collars with great interest. Max is now 4 months old and my trainer, who I do trust, last week said that we have to put him on a choke collar, but just for training, because he has taken up the position of dominance in the house I had already started feeling that way. He won't eat if he doesn't exactly like his food, which I've changed about 5 times and he has begun going all over the house after a very good start with the paper. (I now have about 5 wee wee pads all over the house and he goes on the rug). He was really into the pad and the treats and then reverted. He has a very strong pesonality, which I love about him, but so do I. I think he and I are going to have to work out many compromises as we learn how to deal with each other.

As a high schol teacher of "urban youth", as they say in the movies, I have learned that there are infinite paths to heaven. Each child is an individual, as is each dog, and each has to be treated in his own special way. It is a process, You can learn some things from books - ideas at best - but not entire training ways. And...yes, your students have to be trained to behave properly in class, mostly because that sets them up for how to properly behave at work, in life, etc. I have found that I use a combination of who I am, who the child, or, in this case, dog, is, as well as what behaviors I absolutely must get from them. I really don't care about all of their behaviors, so I just let them be and concentrate on what I feel is essential.

However, at the end of the day, a good teacher MUST be the dominant one in the classroom. This is more for the safety of all of her children than for any other reason. For example, if I yell "Line up right now, there's a fire drill," they absolutely have to get that I am totally the "pack leader," no questions asked. In this sense, I love Cesar Millan's philosophy and I do agree with it. The ways that he carries out this philososphy may not be your cup of tea, but you don't have to do anything his way. I'm only suggesting, again from my experience as a classroom teacher, that there must be a pack leader who controls the pack in the way he or she's most comfortable. I love my students and my students love me, and for many, I am their favorite teacher, but they always tell the new ones not to mess with me and they they must do it my way in the end. They understand this, don't mind it at all, and even feel safer around me, because they know I'm there for them.

Now, if I can only learn to apply my own knowledge to this little 4 1/2 pound tyrant, Max, who I absolutely adore. Nobody ever said it was going to be easy!

Judy

[Big T]

Treats and A LOT of praise have worked for me so far. Also, before you give him his food, make him earn it by doing a command or trick and then reward him with his food.

[FirstYorkie]

Originally Posted by daimbert

Just wondering why form of training you guy do with your yorkies. What are the pro's and cons if any.

Clicker Training and other positive methods for us.
Pro's - it works, it's fun for both dog and handler
Con's - there are none that I am aware of
Here is a link to some (poorly photographed) video of Joey. It needs to be updated; he's much better at some of these things than he was when I taped him:
http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?use...cdate=20060121

The first two clicker training and positive reinforcement I've heard that dogs become to dependent on treats to do anything.

Actually, that's a myth. Dogs who are clicker trained correctly will respond to commands in the absence of treats. However, clicker trainers generally choose a high rate of reinforcement. This may be done with whatever the dog sees as rewarding - food, a game of tug or fetch, praise and/or physcial affection, etc, etc. When Joey and I are at the park, correct responses to cues are best rewarded with the command "go see" - his chance to go sniff to his heart's content.
You will note in the above videos that Joey *is* rewarded with food treats (pieces of his kibble). I personally believe in paying for a job well-done. I, for one, wouldn't work at my best at a job that didn't pay me (granted, sometimes that payment isn't in the form of money but is instead in good feelings about myself - ie for volunteer work).

Also I love reading so recommend any books you like..

Click for Joy by Melissa C. Alexander
Culture Clash By Jean Donaldson
Don't Shoot The Dog By Karen Pryor
Bones Would Rain From The Sky: Deepening Our Relationship With Dogs
By Suzanne Clothier
The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training by Pamela Dennison
Calming Signals: On Talking Terms With Dogs By Turid Rugaas
Calming Signals: What Your Dog Tells You By Turid Rugaas
Power Of Positive Dog Training By Pat Miller
The Other End Of The Leash By Dr. Patricia Mcconnell
Mine! by Jean Donaldson

[FirstYorkie]

Originally Posted by judyeve

However, at the end of the day, a good teacher MUST be the dominant one in the classroom. This is more for the safety of all of her children than for any other reason. For example, if I yell "Line up right now, there's a fire drill," they absolutely have to get that I am totally the "pack leader," no questions asked. ... I love my students and my students love me
Judy

I agree 100%, Judy, that the teacher must be seen as the "leader".

But, do you accomplish that by physical domination and force? I expect not. I expect that you accomplish this by earning your students respect, by being fair, by giving clear guidance, and by controlling the resources. I don't know you but I bet you rarely use physical dominance and I bet you rarely use positive punishment (aversives). I expect you use alot of praise and when you have to "get serious", your discipline involves removal of the goodies (time out away from the group, lost recess, etc) rather than using aversives.

There is a difference between being a leader and being dominant.

[FirstYorkie]

Oh, Judy, one more thing. Have you questioned your trainer about the safety of using a choke collar in a breed that is prone to tracheal collapse?

[FirstYorkie]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

It would be foolish and dangerous to take a large breed untrained dog out into public without a choke or prong collar.

Actually, I agree with you.

I would change your wording a little though. How about this: "It would be foolish and dangerous to take a large breed untrained dog out into public without using a method to control him." Choke or prong collars aren't mandatory. Gentle leaders and no-pull harnesses are equally effective.

The question I have, though, is why take a large, untrained dog out into public in the first place? Why not train the dog? It can be done, you know. And, it can be done using positive methods.