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Old 09-24-2009, 12:03 PM   #1
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Confused Biting issues.

Hello everyone!

Bentley, my yorkie, is about 5 months now - and he, for the past month and a half, has had issues with nipping and biting. I was told and read everywhere possible that it is "normal" but that you want to "nip" it is the butt before it gets worse...

He didn't have ANY aggression issues what-so-ever until he started to become a "man" and now has testosterone flowing through him. We are non-violent people so even flicking his little mouth when he is biting is not something I can even think of doing.

I have tried putting him on his back to show dominance, firmly saying "no", and placing my hand around his entire mouth (as requested by our vet) while saying "no" - I have been ok with this act due to it's non-violent nature, putting a toy in his mouth instead, and removing him off the couch.

I am not going to lie - Bentley is my baby... so he gets on the couch, but he is crated at night (which has gone REALLY well). I know I spoil him, I am just afraid that this biting, growling issue could become worse as he matures.

When he is doing these random acts of badness, he is always wagging his tail - which I assume makes him think that he is playing... We play with him often, never tugging toys, and take him on at least 2 walks a day. While walking he is very calm, and never shows aggression towards others... just my fiance and myself while we are in the house and he wants to play.

Does anyone have any advice? I read a few forums, but I am just worried that he will be a mean dog - though he is loving 95% of the time. Is this an age thing? Will it change when I have him neutered?

Thanks! I really appreciate the help!
Melissa and Bentley
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:36 PM   #2
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It is not aggression, it is just rough play. And at his age not even likely that it is hormones.

Do you plan to have him neutered?

As for the biting and him being spoiled. There is good spoiled and bad spoiled. If you hold him a lot andbuy him lots of toys, that is good spoiled. If you do not correct bad behavior, that is bad spoiled, and just as with children, it will only get worse.

It is your job as the pack leader, to show him what is right and what is wrong. If you refuse to discipline bad behavior because you think it is mean, then you are in for a world of trouble.

It sounds to me like the dog is ruling the house. You need to learn to be a good pack leader and take back control. A dog will not bite the pack leader.

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Old 09-24-2009, 01:07 PM   #3
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Thank you for your comments.

I will have to say that it is a "good" spoiled. He gets toys, love and treats when he is being a good boy. He is crated for sleep and is also put in the crate when I am away at school (only an hour or two at a time). He is potty trained, which took a lot of work, and he only has accidents if we do not watch him - which has happened twice in the past month and a half... other than that he sits by the door, rings the bell and goes potty outside.

We have done a good job of letting him know who's boss, but I think what we may be doing wrong is not being 100% concrete in our punishment of bad behavior. This is our first dog, ever, and I feel that I am only worried that he will be aggressive.

Yes, we plan to get him neutered, though he has amazing blood lines and all papers. I just do not wish to have a sire - he is for companionship, not mating, in my eyes.

We are trying our best to correct bad behaviors, but really do not wish to result to violence to get the results. As I had stated, I will hold his mouth closed, saying "NO" and he seems to get it at that moment... I was mainly asking for advice to see if others have had this issue and what they had done to rectify the situation.

My fiance and I have no children, this is our child, and we are doing what we can, but seem to need advice from others.

Thanks.
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Old 09-24-2009, 01:52 PM   #4
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I do not believe in the dominance theory and do feel that it is outdated based on the following:

The original alpha/dominance model was born out of short-term studies of wolf packs done in the 1940s. These were the first studies of their kind. These studies were a good start, but later research has essentially disproved most of the findings. There were three major flaws in these studies:
1. These were short-term studies, so the researchers concentrated on the most obvious, overt parts of wolf life, such as hunting. The studies are therefore unrepresentative -- drawing conclusions about "wolf behavior" based on about 1% of wolf life.
2. The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model" comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos.

For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?

There is a great deal of research out on the internet about this and you will have to decide if you agree or disagree. I have included a few books you might also want to read to help you on your journey with your little one.

Donít Shoot The Dog by Karen Pryor.
On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas.
The Other end of the Leash by Patricia McConnell.
Bones Would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier.
The Dog Whisperer by Paul Owens.
Click For Joy by Melissa Alexander.
Click to Calm by Emma Parsons.
Clicker Training for Dogs by Karen Pryor.
Fight by Jean Donaldson.
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson.
Dominance Theory and Dogs by James OíHeare.
Outwitting Dogs by Terry Ryan.
Clicker Training for Obedience by Morgan Spector.
New Work of Dogs by John Kazt.
Getting Started Clicker Training For Dogs By Karen Pryor
Little Dogs: Training your Pint Sized Companion by Deborah Wood
Quick Clicks By Mandy Book and Cheryl S. Smith.

Unless you are training an aggressive dogs these are very expensive so may not be the best buy.

Aggression In Dogs, Practical Management, Prevention & Behavior Modification by Brenda Aloff.
Canine Body Language, A Photographic guide by Brenda Aloff
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Old 09-24-2009, 02:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BentleyB View Post
Thank you for your comments.

I will have to say that it is a "good" spoiled. He gets toys, love and treats when he is being a good boy. He is crated for sleep and is also put in the crate when I am away at school (only an hour or two at a time). He is potty trained, which took a lot of work, and he only has accidents if we do not watch him - which has happened twice in the past month and a half... other than that he sits by the door, rings the bell and goes potty outside.

We have done a good job of letting him know who's boss, but I think what we may be doing wrong is not being 100% concrete in our punishment of bad behavior. This is our first dog, ever, and I feel that I am only worried that he will be aggressive.

Yes, we plan to get him neutered, though he has amazing blood lines and all papers. I just do not wish to have a sire - he is for companionship, not mating, in my eyes.

We are trying our best to correct bad behaviors, but really do not wish to result to violence to get the results. As I had stated, I will hold his mouth closed, saying "NO" and he seems to get it at that moment... I was mainly asking for advice to see if others have had this issue and what they had done to rectify the situation.

My fiance and I have no children, this is our child, and we are doing what we can, but seem to need advice from others.

Thanks.
It is very important to be consistent when trying to correct a problem, if not the dog gets confused.

I'm not sure that holding his mouth shut is very effective. Your reaction must be quick and short.

If he were playing too rough with playmates, they would yelp loud andthe refuse to play with him. If he were playing too rough with his mother, she would snap at him, not hurting him, just to let him know to stop.

You could try either of those methods. It also might help to find him some play mates. They will let him know that he is being too rough.

Try to picture dogs playing and how they communicate.
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Old 09-24-2009, 02:42 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livingdustmops View Post
I do not believe in the dominance theory and do feel that it is outdated based on the following:

The original alpha/dominance model was born out of short-term studies of wolf packs done in the 1940s. These were the first studies of their kind. These studies were a good start, but later research has essentially disproved most of the findings. There were three major flaws in these studies:
1. These were short-term studies, so the researchers concentrated on the most obvious, overt parts of wolf life, such as hunting. The studies are therefore unrepresentative -- drawing conclusions about "wolf behavior" based on about 1% of wolf life.
2. The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model" comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos.

For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?

There is a great deal of research out on the internet about this and you will have to decide if you agree or disagree. I have included a few books you might also want to read to help you on your journey with your little one.

Don’t Shoot The Dog by Karen Pryor.
On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas.
The Other end of the Leash by Patricia McConnell.
Bones Would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier.
The Dog Whisperer by Paul Owens.
Click For Joy by Melissa Alexander.
Click to Calm by Emma Parsons.
Clicker Training for Dogs by Karen Pryor.
Fight by Jean Donaldson.
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson.
Dominance Theory and Dogs by James O’Heare.
Outwitting Dogs by Terry Ryan.
Clicker Training for Obedience by Morgan Spector.
New Work of Dogs by John Kazt.
Getting Started Clicker Training For Dogs By Karen Pryor
Little Dogs: Training your Pint Sized Companion by Deborah Wood
Quick Clicks By Mandy Book and Cheryl S. Smith.

Unless you are training an aggressive dogs these are very expensive so may not be the best buy.

Aggression In Dogs, Practical Management, Prevention & Behavior Modification by Brenda Aloff.
Canine Body Language, A Photographic guide by Brenda Aloff

Great post! Many pups who bite are doing so out of fear, and to reinforce that by rolling them over on their backs only makes it worse, imo.

I have a foster who came to me, biting people and other pups. He was found in the woods and was a fear biter. I consistently put him in a crate in the beginning, since it was difficult to pick him up due to the biting. Every time he went after another pup, I put the crate in front of him and let him sit in it for just a couple of minutes. Simply a time out. I then started leading him to a bathroom and that is where his time outs were. He actually would go readily...almost as if he understood and really wanted the time out!

He lives here with us now and while he still has some issues, he has come a long way!

I have a couple of females who, about once per month, get into little squabbles. I grab each of them and put them in time outs in separate rooms. It only takes a minute or two. Just enough to tell them that if they misbehave they cannot be with everyone else. They DO get it! Oh...they revert back in a few weeks, but are easily snapped back into compliance.

Personally, I think these little guys are just like toddlers. I did not handle my toddler in a rough fashion and will not a pup either!

Oh...and I have a six month old puppy as a foster right now. When she gets a little rough with her mouth, I simply say "Ouch" in a loud tone and she stops!
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Old 09-24-2009, 02:45 PM   #7
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And...yes, I know the original post is not about fear biting! I was simply posting that in response to the posting about the roll overs.

Puppies do use their mouths and it is up to us to let them know it HURTS! They need to be taught not to do that in a firm, consistent and loving manner.
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Old 09-24-2009, 02:52 PM   #8
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She said she was not in favor of physical discipline, so I think we are all in agreement on this issue.
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Old 09-24-2009, 03:08 PM   #9
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I do something that may sound truly strange, but it works for me.

Imagine what "hey!" sounds like...without the "h" sound. It's not especially loud in volume, but high up in the back of my throat, quick, sharp and positively ear-piercing. Not at all like yelling. It's instinctive on my part and it has caused every dog I've ever had to immediately stop whatever they're doing...and, um, shall we say, reconsider. This sound clearly horrifies them and causes an instantaneous "STOP" reaction.

Obviously, it's not what I say...it's the sound I make. And since it really is my automatic response to all bad (or dangerous to them) behavior, there's no delay between their action and my reaction. Perhaps you can find something like that within yourself that will be equally effective for you and your little Bentley.
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Old 09-24-2009, 03:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
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She said she was not in favor of physical discipline, so I think we are all in agreement on this issue.
Yes, I know that. As I said, I was simply adding on to what Cindy said. Others might read it and find it helpful!

I also responded with how I handle my goofy puppy with her playful bites.
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Old 09-24-2009, 03:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toke View Post
I do something that may sound truly strange, but it works for me.

Imagine what "hey!" sounds like...without the "h" sound. It's not especially loud in volume, but high up in the back of my throat, quick, sharp and positively ear-piercing. Not at all like yelling. It's instinctive on my part and it has caused every dog I've ever had to immediately stop whatever they're doing...and, um, shall we say, reconsider. This sound clearly horrifies them and causes an instantaneous "STOP" reaction.

Obviously, it's not what I say...it's the sound I make. And since it really is my automatic response to all bad (or dangerous to them) behavior, there's no delay between their action and my reaction. Perhaps you can find something like that within yourself that will be equally effective for you and your little Bentley.

Exactly! Enough to get their attention. My ouch is like that! They really do understand. As soon I say ouch and Isabella stops, I tell her what a pretty girl she is and pet her. She does not think she did something bad, per se, but does "get" that it was stopped.
I am a firm believer in redirecting and positive reinforcement.
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Old 09-24-2009, 08:07 PM   #12
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I took the advice of saying "ouch" this evening and he seems to get it... So, I am going to try that for a while - My fiance and I will also work to improve the consistency to 100%, not 97%... I think that will make all of the difference.

I do appreciate all of the feed-back, but I feel that I do have to come to my offense on this matter. I have only tried turning him around on his back one time and this was at the request of a well-respected vet in Seattle, Wa. Bentley didn't seem to do anything other than lay there, calmly... but it just made me feel that the action was not being tended to quick enough - I seemed to get the "mommy, why am I on my back" look.

The holding around the mouth - it is instant and you just cup around the mouth with your index and thumb - obviously not covering airways - this was also suggested by many people I know and the vet said that it just may work. I have done this about 4-5 times, he seems to respond, ok, but really it seems to more confuse him.

Bentley is a really smart dog and he was potty trained a lot easier than I was told he would be - he sits, heels, stays (well, we are working on stay). He just seems to think that this playing aggressively is "fun" to him.

I do have "play dates" with a border collie, my parents dog - they play amazingly well and love one another. Bentley seems to be submissive with Jess (my parent's dog) but they play well. He also plays with a few labs and other dogs because we own a house that is private and on the same road as a very large park.

I was just asking for advice - I wanted to see what others do, and I received some pretty great responses and will definitely try them out. I know that I am at fault for not being 100% consistent, but I have fallen victim to his cute face he looks like an ewok/teddy bear and he is so loving, other than this one issue.

As far as dominance: I know he understands that we are the "leaders" of the house, he just pushes boundaries and we are working on that. I feel that we are first time dog owners trying to do what we can.

As far as violence: I just can't bring myself to flick him, I respect that this has worked with others, but I just cannot bring myself to do this. I also will not pick him up by the back of the neck and/or "spank" him - this may be my doggie-parent downfall, but I feel that that is pushing a limit that I just can't bare to cross.

I am sorry that I explained all of that, I just wanted everyone to know some of my background to asset what the issues are.

I truly am grateful for this site - I know that being a first time dog owner and Yorkie owner, that I have a lot to learn.

Thank you all for your advice and I will definitely try a few things out if "ouch" doesn't continue to work... Bentley is cuddled up on me asleep, so I am going to sign off - thank you!!!
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Old 09-24-2009, 08:36 PM   #13
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I know that I am at fault for not being 100% consistent, but I have fallen victim to his cute face he looks like an ewok/teddy bear and he is so loving, other than this one issue.
hahahhaha They are hard to resist! I don't think anyone could be 100% consistent!

Bentley is lucky to have you!!
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livingdustmops View Post
I do not believe in the dominance theory and do feel that it is outdated based on the following:

The original alpha/dominance model was born out of short-term studies of wolf packs done in the 1940s. These were the first studies of their kind. These studies were a good start, but later research has essentially disproved most of the findings. There were three major flaws in these studies:
1. These were short-term studies, so the researchers concentrated on the most obvious, overt parts of wolf life, such as hunting. The studies are therefore unrepresentative -- drawing conclusions about "wolf behavior" based on about 1% of wolf life.
2. The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model" comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos.

For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?

There is a great deal of research out on the internet about this and you will have to decide if you agree or disagree. I have included a few books you might also want to read to help you on your journey with your little one.

Donít Shoot The Dog by Karen Pryor.
On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas.
The Other end of the Leash by Patricia McConnell.
Bones Would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier.
The Dog Whisperer by Paul Owens.
Click For Joy by Melissa Alexander.
Click to Calm by Emma Parsons.
Clicker Training for Dogs by Karen Pryor.
Fight by Jean Donaldson.
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson.
Dominance Theory and Dogs by James OíHeare.
Outwitting Dogs by Terry Ryan.
Clicker Training for Obedience by Morgan Spector.
New Work of Dogs by John Kazt.
Getting Started Clicker Training For Dogs By Karen Pryor
Little Dogs: Training your Pint Sized Companion by Deborah Wood
Quick Clicks By Mandy Book and Cheryl S. Smith.

Unless you are training an aggressive dogs these are very expensive so may not be the best buy.

Aggression In Dogs, Practical Management, Prevention & Behavior Modification by Brenda Aloff.
Canine Body Language, A Photographic guide by Brenda Aloff
Thank you so much for this post!! Just when you think you know everything you find out you don't! I was always under the impression that the rollover was good as well to establish the alpha role. Looking at it again makes me understand more why I felt so strange doing this to Teddi recently. I did it once - could tell he was very uncomfortable and have not done it again. The last thing I want to do with our new little one is make him feel unsafe. He has bared his tummy to me without forcing it so I think he knows he is not the alpha but he is definitely pushing the limits (as any young being would). His biting is getting a bit crazy as well and seems to only do it with me. I think he is rough playing as well and not being aggressive so I will definitely try the loud ouch approach since 'NO' is definitely not working. It has been so long since I have had a baby pup in the house it is difficult to remember all the things I did right with Gizzy. He never had any aggression issues and was always a sweet, loving, compassionate boy. I hope I can pull the same off with Teddi.

Thank you again!
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