Well, I'm totally against spanking, mainly because when it's done, the parent is angry, and it can excalate. A parent should never punish in anger, but wait tell emotions are controled. I also don't think we should ever hit someone, except in self defense. You are teaching a child it's ok to hit someone when you spank them. I do not see how this has anything to do with Cesar, he strongly advocates not hitting animals. How we each define abuse, is subjective, some people think crate training is abusive.

Yes, that's very true. The number one thing Cesar always teaches is to be calm so when parents are spanking, they're not going to be calm. He never punishes out of anger - he just disciplines calmly.

I think it got brought up because people are claiming that Cesar hits and kicks his dogs and I was just trying to show the difference, because I don't believe that he abuses animals, but some say he does. As for the spanking, I guess my main point is that it never psychologically damaged any of my relatives who were spanked as kids; however, I don't think I could ever get myself to spank my own child.

I have and that is why I have studied many of the different methods out there because I have dogs that bite first and ask questions later...this is what abuse will do to a Yorkie. If I did the things he does to my biters I would be destroying these dogs. I know it for a fact...I do not believe in flooding, I don't believe in choke collars, prong collars etc because dogs are dogs no matter the size and I don't think you can have different standards based on the size of the dog. I don't believe in the Alpha role because I don't believe in that theory because they have proven it is bunk.

If you worked with a fear aggressive dog you would understand why what he did to that Akita was what I consider abuse. I consider it abuse to chain a dog in the backyard (state laws don't) I consider it abuse to keep a dog locked up in a kennel only large enough to move around in (state laws don't) I consider it abuse to keep pumping out puppies year after year (state laws don't)..I could go on with the list of things that I believe are abuse ..

I consider all those things abusive, too.

What did he do wrong with the Akita?

Cindy

Take a very deep long breath and look at what is being said...
See aggression ??? what do we do in the face of aggression???

Best way to solve this is to do that.
You can not teach in a space that is not open to learning and one that can not see abuse in its face for fear it maybe wrong.
We can chatter at them all day but they are not willing to read and see the evidence for what it is.
See fear again and aggression.
So let them as the law allows to own thier cretures great and small and let them do as they wish.

Our best recource is to pray either they get one as bad as we have and learn cause they must or pray they never do.
Oh this does mean I will stop talking about Ceaser and his abusive ways but I am not allowing anyone to beat on me in such a manner to long.
I not burning out there are to many dogs that still need and owners that still need my care.
My advice Cindy is burn out is not worth them.


JL

I could say the same thing. You're not very much willing to read what we Cesar supporters have to say, either. So, follow your own advice.

I've stated many times I enjoy both Victoria and Cesar's techniques and learn from both shows. But, the reason I'm here is to defend Cesar which may make me look more one-sided than I truly am. I'm kind of trying to play Devil's advocate here and just look at the other side, just as you are. You're not very open to learning yourself.

dog training gone bad

Dog Whisperer | Shadow, Jake & Riley and Norton | National Geographic Channel


Many of you may be aware of a National Geographic television show featuring a charismatic individual who helps dog owners. I recently came across this video on the website and I urge you to watch it (preferably without the sound so as not to be distracted by his talking) and keep your eye on the dog. Here is what you will see:



Within the first 5 seconds, the handler kicks the dog in the abdomen. When the dog turns toward him he is jerked off his feet. A struggle ensues where the handler gets bitten several times and the dog is seen to be struggling for air. Finally he gets the dog onto the ground and the dogs tongue is blue and the dog is gasping for breath. When he finally gets the dog up it appears that there might be urine on the ground and that the dog voided his bladder in distress.



What you have witnessed is not dog training but abuse. Not only does the dog suffer, but clients are at risk if they attempt these interventions themselves. These are not appropriate measures and compromise the welfare of the dog and the safety of people. His explanations are false and not based on science as we know it. We as veterinarians must make our voices heard and let National Geographic and most importantly our clients know that these types of interventions are wrong and not in the best interest of dogs or people.



As a veterinary behaviorist I have dealt with behavior problems in companion animals for over 25 years and would never confront a dog this way. Not only would it be dangerous for me and the family, it would be harmful for the dog. My goal is diagnose the problem, and design humane treatment plans that help the family change the behavior of their dog so that they can safely live together. I hope all veterinarians can agree that this is the best approach.



I would love to hear your thoughts. Most importantly, go to the link and scroll down the page to “contact us” and click on that. Let National Geographic know what you think.



Thank you for your time





Debra F. Horwitz, DVM, DACVB

I just watched the video and I didnt see him kick the dog in the stomach and I didnt see anything I would call abuse. Im gonna watch it again

Very true. He teaches that an angry person is an unstable person and you can not be pack leader if you are unstable.

Right away he kicks the dog and then he cuts off the air supply for this dog...I would fight also if someone was choking off of my air supply. The dog can not even swollow.....this video makes me very angry....If I did this with one of my rescue's I deserve to be bitten.

Would you allow this to happen to your dogs?

P.S. I was wrong it was not an Akita but a huskey.

Yeah kickings not abuse nor is choking it is just a dog.
Said shaking head and tongue in cheek.
As long as it behaves all is fair.
JL

Exactly my perspective. What I did see is Cesar bumping the dog in the stomach to get his attention back on him. This very volatile dog was zoning in on the other dog being walked and Cesar simply bumped him with his foot. I would equate it to me tapping someone on the shoulder who was in an intense conversation.

The gross exaggerations by animal rights people do more harm than justice. It is like Peter crying Wolf - so when there really ARE cases of abuse way too many people just write it off as more of their blowing smoke.

Yorkiemother is claiming that Cesar is guilty of physical injurous abuse. That is what we are discussing.

I suppose anytime you do something that a dog is not happy with could be considered abuse. Some people consider eating in front of a dog and not sharing the food to be abusive.

And they h ave not proven anything of the sort. They just have their own theory. Nothing has been proven.

When ever there is a group of animals or people living together, there is going to be a leader. In the case of dogs, the leader eats first, the leader leads the pack. Where ever he/she goes, they go, by choice. If an unstable dog enters the pack, the leader will take care of him/her. he/she will either conform or be run off or killed.

They could not live together if there were not rules and a leader to enforce the rules.

The problem arrises when a pup has been removed fom his mother at 5 to 6 weeks of age before he has been taught proper dog behavior and language. They are taken into homes where they are cuddled and pampered until they mess on the floor and then theyh are kicked and chained outside. If they are fortunate, someone feeds and waters them regularly.

They do not understand human ways ecause nothing makes sense to them. hey do not understand or exhibit normal dog body language because they have never learned it. It must be awfully difficult to work with those dogs because they do not exhibit normal dog behavior, not do they know how rto read the trainers body language.

No matter how many aggressive dogs you have worked with, I doubt that it is anywhere near the number that Cesar has.

Are you talking about the same Akita I'm talking about? There was an episode featuring Roscoe, a fearful Akita, and I thought Cesar handled it wonderfully. That's what I thought you were talking about since it was mentioned earlier in the thread. That dog shown in the video is a Husky, not an Akita. I was wondering your opinion on the Akita you referred to.

As for the video you posted, I watched it first with no sound, and then with sound. What the author failed to mention was that the Husky first looked at the other dog, which could have triggered a possible attack, and at the moment that the Husky turned it's attention to the other dog, that's when Cesar nudged him with his foot in the dogs side to re-direct his attention elsewhere. Then of course, the dog flipped out on Cesar, which is expected, really. Cesar had to hold the leash up high as he was doing in order to not get injured himself worse. He wasn't purposely suffocating the dog, he was just getting it under control until he finally got the dog calm and in a surrender state. I also did not see any urine. Once he got the dog laying down, the dog looked totally calm and relaxed. However, I really do not like to judge one clip without seeing the episode in it's entirety.

:thumbup:
You all posted while I was typing my message, lol.

We have made no personal attacks toward you nor have any of our comments been aggressive.

No one has beaten on you. you made some very strong serious allegations about Cesar and I told you that if this is true and someone has first hand knowledge that it is a crime not to report it.

I always know when someone has dug themselves in too deep. They always start with the personal attacks or accusing me of things that I did not say or do.

I do not believe that Cesar kicks or hits any dog ever.

Your sarcasm is not very flattering. I do not believe that he has ever kicked or hit a dog.

I watched the same video as you and I wouldnt call that a kick I would call it a nudge. There was no force behind it

The actuall purpose of Ceasar poking the dog in the stomach(with his foot) is to get
his attention immedately and breaking the dog from going into what
Ceasar calls the Red Zone. Once thier there, there is no turning back.
Aggression begins. This is only one of the things I do do with Buddy.
It works every time. As soon as I see Buddy look at a large dog he gets
a poke in his side, with my finger, to break his concentration of going after
the other dog. It works immediately and does not harm the dog. Would I
harm my dog, of course not and I will continue to poke him if it means
a peaceful walk and an obiedent dog at the end of my leash.
Believe me a 16lb Yorkie can be as aggressive as a 85lb pit.
Of course not do as much damage but they can still get in the Red Zone
just as fast. Believe me I've seen it more than once and this method
has almost put a hault to it unless I'm not paying close attention during
our walks. If a poke here and there keeps my Yorkie from going into
the Red Zone than a poke he will continue to get.

Yorkiemother, you just don't give up do you?
You don't have to love the man but once again give him credit for
all the good he does.

Exdactly what I saw. I consider a kick to be a kick with the toe amied at the dog. he tapped the dog with his foot. I use my foot to control my yorkies all the time. To move them back away fromn the door, or to get them to stop jumping at my legs from behind.

Never did I hear the dog cry in pain. Also with the leash postitoned where it was he was not even choking the dog. had he been choking the dog would have been gasping for air and wheezing.

And exactly what would you have done in that same situation? He laso had to defend himself, without injuring the dog.

I give up....since not of you have ever had a fear aggressive dog you would not understand. I had a yorkie that if I raised my hand slightly by his head he turned and attacked. In order to groom him we had to go to the vet to have him put to sleep so we could shave him down at first. This poor dog had been passed from home to home and beaten and let me tell you that if anyone of you walked into the house and took his leash and brought your foot around from the back and "nudged" him (however you want to enterpret the word)he would have turned and done the same thing. You do not scare a dog that is already into a nervous state as this Husky was IMHO.

I believe you remove the dog from what is making him nervous, scared, red zone whatever you call it and work with the dog with patience and understanding...not cutting his air off...instant fix and I bet you this dog would do it again...

Describing that episode as Cesar kicking the dog in the stomach is such a gross exaggeration, in my opinion. Also, implying that he is saying that we should handle our dogs in this manner is inaccurate; don't you read the cautionary statement he makes? "Do not attempt this behavior yourself without consulting a professional." This means that a person needs much more information to do this correctly than what is shown on the video. This would be very dangerous for most people to do, but did you notice the way he kept his composure through the whole thing, even though he was out of breathe, he seemed to be so calm.

If nudging a volatile dog in the side to redirect his attention constitutes kicking, then I agree. Not only that, I have no confidence in the credibility of the "behavorists" that have been listed in this thread who discredit Cesar.

:thumbup:

Amen Sista! This dog appeared to be dangerously aggressive.

As far as the safety factor goes, there is a huge difference between dealing with an aggressive 5 or 10 lb. dog and a 100 lb. dog who stands up face to face with you.

I only care about the dog...and okay...if you don't like the word kick...fine...he nudged the dog...but guess what..people will do what he does to their dogs.

I am sorry but I am done but hopefully this long discussion opened a few minds that everything you see on TV is not real. I have said I am not absolutely against him but I do listen to the experts (posted at the beginning of this thread) and read what they have to say. For those of you that like quick fixes go for it and enjoy his show for entertainment.


Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers“Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”

Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO"A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about “dominance”, are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."

Vyolet Michaels, CTC, CPDT (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ "Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."

Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Author of the book, "Dogs Bite""On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."

Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC
to National Geographic before airing “The Dog Whisperer”:
“The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead.”

I will admit I'm one of those people.
Ceasar does not Kick the dog but uses his foot to touch the stomach
to break the dog's train of thought immediately. I use this method on
Buddy daily if necessary only I poke him in the side with my finger to
break him of getting aggressive when he sees a large dog. I don't
POKE him hard but all it takes is a touch with my finger to redirect
his thoughts of going after that dog. It works like a charm and gives
both myself and my dog a peacful enjoyable walk. There is nothing
what so ever wrong with doing this.
It seems like his methods have gotten blown out of porportion.
I may have missed some episodes but I try and watch most of them.
I have yet to see this man cause injury or harm to a dog.
I guess we each believe what we believe but without Ceasar I would
be up $hit$ creek without a paddle:rolleyes:

Bottom line, I, personally do not have any confidence at all in the professionals you have listed (over and over again). If I had the time I am sure I could fine as many like qualified experts who supported Cesar, but alas, I have more important things to do. It is enough that I believe Cesar is a qualified trainer and is not abusive. I don't need anyone telling me what to think.



I have a tremendous amount of respect for the rescue work that you do and I believe that you have definately made a difference. And I thank you from the bottom of my heart for caring enough to give so much of yourself to help our beloved yorkies.