Great post. Your words are so much better than mine, lol.

And agree with the pennies in a can method. I've used it on Jackson. It's caused no psychological harm to him. I've also squirted him with a squirt bottle for barking and it's worked like a charm. Some may say that's abusive, I don't think it is.

Victoria Stillwell uses noises, claps, etc as well. I've seen her use a loud horn once to distract the dogs from barking at the door. And she's an all positive trainer.

Okay I can agree with you I dont like the use of a shock collar except maybe on bigger powerful dogs. I dont think anyone should use on on a smaller dog not even the electric fencing collars

I agree with this too. I wouldn't like the idea of using a shock collar on a smaller dog. Even Jackson who is 14lbs, his little neck is just soo small, I couldn't do it. I do, however, think it's not so bad on a larger powerful very aggressive breed if used properly.

I read something (I believe by Karen Pryor) that was very interesting about horse breaking. She talked about this old, mystical way gypsies broke wild horses in just a few hours. They would get in a pen with a wild horse, and the horse would go berserk for a while, and then unbelievably, he would be quietly following the human. It was very dangerous because of course you could get kicked in the head by the horse.

This method has been used since the beginning of civilization, and it is just in the past century that the technique was assessed, and it is really quite simple (though still, not recommended at home!). The horse desperately wants to get away from the scary human, and is bouncing every which way in his attempts to escape the pen. Random chance dictates that some of these wild movements will bring the horse closer to the human. At that second, the human drops her hands and backs up. The horse learns that the only way to get the human to move away is to approach her! This method (not the enclosed pen, but the reward of distance) is now used with many fearful animals. It's actually a basic application of positive reinforcement.

I just re-watched a couple of Cesar's eppy's, and it's true that a lot of them don't use insane force. I am finding them really interesting in terms of dog body language now that I know a little bit more about that. A lot of advice Cesar gives is basic, like with the pink maltese - if your dog is excited to the point of peeing, don't get her more excited.

I still do find him frustrating because I feel like his language is very imprecise, but I know that's a personal thing. It does annoy me, though. Like he flagged this dog as "in an unbalanced submissive state" because the dog was lifting his paw, and Cesar said that's a predatory signal. It CAN be a predatory signal, but it can ALSO be an appeasement gesture, and it seemed pretty clear the dog was trying to appease (it was paired with lip licking, etc). Also, Cesar's "magic" way of getting dogs to sit with the "sshhhh" noise: Sitting and laying down are both appeasement gestures.

I feel so unbalanced after I watch his show! :p

Interesting about the gypsies - I will have to read up on this...here is the gentleman who I watched on tv.

Monty Roberts Join Up, Man Who Listens to Horses, Real Horse Whisperer, Books, Biography, Train, Demonstrations, Flag is Up

I am no horse person but I just remember as a young girl watching them do what they did and then just crying. I do not believe in hurting any animal and I believe given time you can bring any animal around - even the Vick dogs except 1 (I think the dog was put down before given to Best Friends). Friends.

I believe even beaten dogs will do whatever it takes to survive (like many woman who are beaten) but what quality of life do they have?

Some people might say that my thoughts are clouded as I have rescue Yorkies but my answer would be then why do the experts not endorse Milan's training.

Argh, this show really drives me crazy. I'm watching him train a couple with two boxers, and he is using prong collars, which are totally unnecessary, AND encouraging the owners to give corrections when the dogs are not doing anything wrong, not even LOOKING at other dogs! Don't be fooled, those prong collars DO hurt. They are not magic. If someone put prongs around your neck, you'd be really careful around them too. A gentle leader is completely effective and not cruel - it puts you in charge of the dog's head.

He's also not using some basic techniques to diffuse dog on dog aggression, like keeping the dog on his far side, or just TEACHING the dog to be calm and look at its owner when other dogs pass by.

However, the owners actually said that one of the boxers had bitten several other dogs and they had been warned the dog would have to be put down if it happened again. So Cesar's method is better than the dog dying. That's where the ARGH comes in. I kind of wish I could just say I loved him or hated him.

===================

Also, I hate to say this, but you can easily tell that while one of the dogs is staying very still and submissive, she is most certainly not calm. She is constantly licking her lips, rounded back, tucked tail, ears back, AND almost the entire white of her eye is showing. She is very stressed.

Argh again. I feel bad posting this, because I do love many Cesar lovers here... but I am just horrified by what he is doing to this poor retriever. He is choking her repeatedly and she is crying out in pain and fear. It IS abusive. It is killing me, because the owners said she is a very high energy dog, probably too high energy for them -- well, why not hire a dog walker to take her on a two hour run a couple times per week! Cesar says she is sensitive to being touched in certain areas of her body. Thor was like this too, and it's soooo easy to fix - you just get the dog relaxed, and then tough the sensitive body part a little bit. That's it. I'm obviously not an expert trainer, but body sensitivity is SO common, and so is the technique I just described.

I don't believe in 100% positive reinforcement. I found pennies in a can very effective, I believe in using your body to set boundaries, I don't believe dogs should run the household, and yes, I think dogs are dogs, not people. While I don't agree with it, I'm not shocked by people who spank their dogs with newspapers or rub their noses in their waste. But Cesar is using cruel and unnecessary methods, WAY beyond a simple whack with a newspaper.

These dogs look just like the kind Victoria trains, it's just that "It's Me or the Dog" bills them as ordinary behavior problems, not shocking, can-this-dog-be-saved emergencies. I'm watching Season 3, by the way.

I love both Ceasar and Victoria. You need to use different methods with different dogs. I watch and just use the methods I think would work with my dog. What we need to realize is that the dogs both Ceasar and Victoria work with are the tough to solve cases, not your ordinary fairly well behaved dog. They both work wonders with their various methods.

Now the poor girl is sitting on her tail. :( She is clearly afraid of Cesar and trying to pacify him.

I don't think he's intentionally being cruel, but it's honestly turning my stomach.

I can't say how bothered I am by this. It really looked like this retriever was just under-exercised (her owners had to be told to walk her at least 30 minutes per day! A young retriever!), and under-socialized. Why not just let her get to know some other dogs in a calm environment? All this force was completely uncalled for.

This is my take on the dog being put down. These people watch tv and tv sells and they probably think he is the dogs only salvation..he is NOT...but I think these owners are ignorant about many different training styles and they want a quick fix. My question is, why is this dog with other dogs if it bites..DUMB...why would you put your dog into this type of situation? or is this the owners other dogs?

Makes me so angry if he is stressing out a dog and soon this family might have two dogs on their hands that bite....

I mean no disrepect but I don't agree with this and I think that many dogs that Victoria/Cesar works with are like many dogs out there. I think most owners just will not read books or get on the internet to try and even understand how dogs think. They bring puppies into their homes and think the dogs will just adapt or the dogs are taught to be submissive:eek:. There are still many owners that think you shove your puppies noise into their messes to train them. :(

How sad...why do people get dogs if they are not willing to put time into them.

I walk a lot dog-aggressive dogs at a shelter, and all of the dogs undergo a two week quarantine period when they first arrive, so they can't meet any dogs or people on the street. We can only touch them after we put gowns and gloves on. Also, we often have big, exuberant dogs that love other canines, but tend to scare people with their enthusiasm. I walk all of them easily, with a very simple method: when we see other dogs or people coming, we cross the street. If that's not possible, we go off to the side, and I give the dog a treat and distract them while the other dog passes.

I completely agree with this but different doesn't have to mean shock collars or prong collars.

I have my first rescue that goes completely insane with other dogs and it took a while to be able to get him comfortably with other dogs. He was pulled out of the pound in a kennel with several other large dogs and who knows what happened to him in the pound. Today he is much more comfortable but I NEVER put him into a situation that could trigger his fear factors.

It really is sad that many dogs end up in shelters because owners would not spend time with their dogs and now they are throw away animals. I applaud what you do and how you handle these dogs. Many people could not do what you do.:thumbup:

Thank you! Trust me, I'm no great shakes, but I know how to cross the street. :p

I know I am going on and on and on (and ON). But it's freaking me out, man! Now there is a sheep dog who keeps barking when the boyfriend plays the guitar. This dog is not alpha AT ALL, he has just never been taught that people don't want him to bark while they are playing music. Cesar comes in, jerks the dog's leash around, scares him into rolling over on his back, and everyone is happy that the dog is calm and submissive! The bf actually thinks the dog is going to sleep!!

It just seems like these owners are clueless, and Cesar is going to leave them clueless, just in a different way.

I have not seen this episode you're referring to, but I dog sit a 4 year old Boxer 4 days a week and there is NOTHING you can do to control him around other dogs, besides using a shock collar. They have worked and worked, had many different trainers over. Shocking was the last option. The first year in a half of his life was spent going to dog parks, going on walks, etc, and he was FINE. Then something set in at two years old and they have no idea what. They have been trying and trying for two years. Boxers are STRONG animals and the prong collars sometimes may be necessary. You can be very rough with them... and it will not hurt them. Sometimes simply keeping the dog on the other side is not possible. They are extremely strong. Also, in the majority of the episodes I've seen where the dogs are wearing prong collars, choke chains, or shock collars.. the OWNER already had them on the dog, not Cesar. In a recent episode I just saw yesterday (you can view it on Hulu.com, it's the dog named Bella) he actually told the owner he could get MORE control without the choke collar. Cesar generally places his little rope/leash looking thing high up on the neck for more control. I don't really see him actually BRING the choke chains, etc, to the home with him. The dogs usually already have him. And too, I'm surprised he didn't actually say anything about the dog still not being calm because in most episodes I've seen, he will get the dog in a lay down position or whatever but he almost ALWAYS points out "She's still not calm!" I always hear him telling owners "just because you made her sit, doesn't mean shes calm submissive" Also, I'm not sure what season you're watching, I started watching mainly last year... but from the re-runs I've seen, he definitely has softened his ways a lot in the recent seasons. Go to Hulu - Watch your favorites. Anytime. For free. and type in Dog Whisperer and see a few of his recent episodes. I'd actually be interested to hear your opinion on him in those! :)

By the way, how was Victoria's show tonight? I missed it.

Okay, I will watch his later episodes. I would only do this for you! ;)

I don't have tremendous experience with boxers, but I have some, and I've worked with very large, strong dogs. This rescue I volunteer at ONLY uses harnesses, though they attach to the collar for safety, so imagine trying to control a 120 lb dog in a harness. It is definitely a different perspective to walk an animal that can pull you off your feet. However, I believe Cesar should tell people not to use prong collars, and I do not agree with his high collar method at all. He was actually pulling dogs off their feet, and these dogs were not even particularly aggressive.

With a gentle leader, you have full control, because if you control a dog's head, you control its body. You pull, the head MUST follow.

I'm watching Victoria on Tivo now!

I totally love the Gentle Leader and Easy Walk harnesses and think they should definitely be used first, for sure.

Also, I totally agree. It's totally different working with larger dogs than working with smaller dogs. Cesar's shows are generally aimed towards larger dogs and some of his methods should definitely NOT be used on a 5lb Yorkie.

I think the main difference between Cesar and Victoria is that Cesar's cases are often ("often" not always) really tough cases where they're using Cesar as a total last resort or the dog could be PTS. Highly-aggressive, or highly problematic dogs. So a lot of the things he does should NOT be done by the typical dog owner watching at home. However, everyone can try to portray his calm energy and his exercise, discipline, affection rule. That can work for any dog. Victoria's show, on the other hand, focuses more on things every day normal people can do with their dogs, which would be the only reason I would like her show a bit more. They are techniques that can be used by a regular dog owner. With Cesar's cases... most people do not have the luxury of bringing their dog into a pack of 30+ dogs who are totally calm submissive. That's just not reality.

Ok will get back still having to tend to a pup but cindy as always has made some very reponsible and right on comments and I love to add more later.

One thing I briefly noticed is someone said that it ok to use on big dog a zap collar, My point of learning and reference is all dogs.

Also the easy walk harness for dog that have high end aggression not a great way to control to much room form them to duck dive and spin. Not looking for a fight just droping quick comments so I can come back and remeber what I want to get into more.

Again I not gone just cuddling a we girl with a very sick tummy. That is even more important that learning and teaching right now.

JL

I am going to watch his later shows, and I totally think Jackson is lucky to have you. If people watch Cesar's shows and get "stay calm, exercise your dog, discipline consistently, and don't spoil your dog or think it's a human", then that is great. However, I have to be honest, I was very disturbed by the shows I watched today. These dogs were not hard luck cases, they were friendly, normal dogs who had some behavior problems.

What I saw was totally clueless owners who had no idea how to communicate rules to their pets. It wasn't like the sheep dog was thinking "humans don't want me to bark, but I'm alpha, and I will do whatever I want! So woofity, woof, woof woof to you!" The dog was thinking, "I'm excited! And I'm telling the world about it! Yay! Woof, woof!"

Then Cesar came in, and basically used harsh punishments to communicate simple rules to these dogs. These dogs, being fairly gentle, just untrained, would probably have done fine on basic positive training. They responded to negative training too, it just seems very unfair to me that that was the first method used. Cesar started hurting them with the collar, and they figured out as fast as they could what they needed to do to get this guy to stop yanking them and kicking them.

Some people have said you shouldn't have to bribe your dog all the time, and I will admit, that's where I am with Thor. Treats should be used to teach a dog something, so he has a marker towards the right result, and to encourage him to perform difficult tasks. But make no mistake, Cesar is not using neutral methods, he is using negative methods.

I believe him that he's observed how dogs interact with each other, but I am not convinced that his dogs are processing his "bites" on the neck and hips as doggie communication. I think they are just processing it as unpleasant sensations they want to prevent. Also keep in mind: in dog packs, do dogs love their alpha? Would they die for their alpha? No, in fact, some dogs are scheming to attack the alpha and move up. Your dog does not see you the same way he would a dominant dog.

This is such an emotional roller coaster for me. :rolleyes: It's hard to hate a man who teaches a girl with cerebral palsy to walk her dogs. His sessions cover so much different stuff, and some of what he does is perfectly fine. Some of it really isn't though.

Here is my take on Cesar having simpler methods, because he uses the "shhhht" sound in so many scenarios. To me, this is a command that says, "drop what you're doing and pay attention to me", or maybe "take it down a notch." I would consider it similar to my "ah-ah-ah" sound for Thor, which means, "reconsider what you are doing." This command can be taught like any other. I think in this case, Cesar is "whispering", in that he is using a challenging, dominant stance that most dogs will respond to with a pacifying signal: sitting, lying down, looking away. Sometimes I think they are just startled. Karen Pryor talks about teaching paired commands, like Speak/Quiet. You get the dog going with Speak! Speak! Speak! and then suddenly you give a completely different signal, Quiet! The dog will probably look at you and think huh? I don't know that signal. What do I do? And they are usually Quiet while they think that. That's also often the start of learning Stay.

I know others here might consider this a "no reward marker" and be against it, but personally, I think it's effective.

Oh my goodness. Now he's usually completely unnecessary force on the poor spaniel. I need to stop posting in the middle of episodes. This show is certainly evoking a lot of emotion in me.

I agree thats why I said alot of his training is geared towards bigger dogs. But I do think there are things smalller dog owners can get from some of his episodes to use also. I really believe in his exercise, discipline, affection rule also

I saw an episode today with an akita that was very fearful of the leash and wouldnt walk on the leash. Cesar was very patient with him putting the leash off and on when the dog was calm and not so tense. He then took the dog to this wooded park to try to get him to walk. Cesar lifted up the dogs hind legs like a wheelbarrel effect and the dog walked a few steps then cesar dropped his legs and he walked a little bit on all fours. When the dog tensed up again he lifted up the hind legs again and repeated that untill the dog walked on the leash with all four legs. This was the first time the dog had ever been exploring anywhere but his own yard. He also took him to his rehabilitation center and had him swim on the leash. The owner was able to take him on walks, to be groomed for the first time and to go to the vet for the first time. It was a good episode

I didnt describe the wheelbarrel effect very good. Cesar lifted the dog up at the back of the stomach so his hind legs were in the air lifted up

I am no pro and just a new mommy who read's alot. But I had to share one of my childhood stories about the biting thing.:D All I know is when I was a kid(3rd grade) my grandma got a new dog we named Hippie. He bite me when I went to pick him up once and being a kid and without thinking, I grabbed his back and bit him back. Yes, I got in trouble and was told not to do that again. But me and that dog became the best of friend's for 21 years after that. Yes, 21 years! He lived to be 22 and saw many many kids during that time, but never bit anyone ever again.:D

Would I bite a dog again? No, I guess not. However, I did bite my daughter once when she wouldn't stop biting her brother. I asked if she liked the way that felt. She said no it hurts. I replied yes, then let's not do it to others.

I saw that, too! Was an amazing case.
And what I love about Cesar is HOW excited he gets when the dog makes progress! He was like "Yesss! That is so good" or something along those lines. You can tell he's very proud when the animals take a step forward. That was a very good episode. When he started leaping in and out of the truck by himself, that was awesome!

LOL, yep. And wow, 22 year old dog! Amazing. What kind of dog?

And I've done that before to my little brother... he bit me before and I did it back -- never did it to me again. My mom was apparently a huge biter as a child, well my grandpa (her dad) bit her back one day and she NEVER bit again, lol. Usually when dogs are biting, they don't know how bad it actually hurts. What's the harm in doing it back? Obviously we are NOT dogs and can not exactly portray what another dogs bite would feel like to them, but that's how they teach each other. That's how mommy dogs teach their pups about biting and why it's so important they stay with their mother until 8-12 weeks.