I block with my foot, and Thor does not flinch or get physically moved from the force. I'm honestly a little surprised that people are so sensitive to the word. Let's call it what it is. No, Cesar does not kick dogs like you would kick a football, but there is force behind it.

As for sssshhhht thing, as I said, I think that's basically like teaching one generalized command of "pay attention to me" or "stop what you are doing." That's fine.

Saying I don't like Cesar doesn't mean that I am attacking a poster here personally, or saying you've trained your dog badly. If people had complaints about Victoria being abusive, or associations had issued warnings about her methods, I would want to know about that. The real issue is training dogs, not our personal feelings about television personalities.

I hope you mean on TV and you are right about that but there have been many fabulous trainers that never were put on TV. It is no secret the pet industry is over a 95 billion dollar industry and NG jumped on the wagon. I believe you will see more and more as time goes on.

Oh, if you're talking about me, I didn't think you were attacking me personally at all! Or saying I trained my dog badly or anything. I hope you didn't take my posts as that ;) That's why I said it wasn't directed at you personally Quicksilver, I was kinda just rambling and posting. You know I love you! lol. I think you're incredibly knowledgeable in dog training and absolutely always look forward to your posts and what you have to say. I always learn a great deal from you and think it's awesome how far you have come with Thor especially since you haven't owned him since he was a puppy and you got him pretty much completely un-trained! Whatever you're doing is obviously working! ;) That's why I just think this debate is just going to come down to different strokes for different folks. What works for some won't work for others, what one likes, others won't, etc. It's just what happens! Debates can get heated though, I'm definitely a debater at heart so sorry if I start coming across as mean or one-sided, it's just what happens to me sometimes, lol. And I do watch both V.S. and C.M's shows and really love them both. I just prefer the TDW but I always flip on VS's shows too and record both on my DVr. I truly learn soo much from both!

Okay! Cause I don't want Cesar to interfere with our net-love. ;)

I also want to say generally... as an amateur trainer, I do find it overwhelming sometimes because there are different training techniques and people are so vehement that only theirs really work. I've read to gently push a dog's hind quarters to force a Sit if they aren't minding you, and I've read you must NEVER do that (literally, NEVER) with a small dog, because you could break a bone.

It's not like if you want to learn algebra, and all you have to do is pick up a textbook, because basic algebra isn't a growing body of knowledge.

However, just because there are conflicting opinions and experts who are of course biased - they're human, they are going to be biased - doesn't mean there is not a lot of really great information out there. I urge anyone who is interested in training to read online articles, watch videos, read books, take classes, go to sessions, etc etc etc. You may have to sort out what you believe and what you don't, but without a doubt, you WILL learn a lot. That's my experience anyway.

Well that is what it all boils down to is personal preference. I think we can all agree that beating a dog is not acceptable, and untrained dogs are not acceptable. It's all that grey area in between that is very subjective.

I agree that now a lot of it is subjective, because there is still a lot of research to be done, but my guess is that in 20 years, we will have more definitive answers on how animals learn. I think it will have wide implications for farm animals, dogs, and human education as well.

As you learn more, you may find that your opinions change. Some things are not purely subjective. I'm going to toot the book

Amazon.com: Canine Body Language: A Photographic...

because it is SUCH a great source of information on canine body language. This is a big reason why I feel more critical of Cesar than I did a few years ago, because I can see the dogs' stress reactions more clearly. It's also made a difference volunteering at a rescue and seeing a wide range of "bad" behavior (and we don't take aggressive dogs as a rule). Of course a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and maybe as I learn more, I'll change my mind again. But I do feel a lot more confident about watching dogs in the park, or watching Thor, and getting a sense of how they feel and what they plan to do next.

I am not sure what generation you are talking about but the generation I think you are talking about the woman had no choices...it was expected that their only role in life was to be a stay at home mother. More woman were on prozac in that generation than ever. If a woman didn't have a husband then she had to go to work and support the family but guess what she didn't get paid for the same work or she was only good for entry level work.

I am 60 years old and grew up in the household you are talking about and trust me we all talk about how wonderful it was and I believe this is only because we didn't have everything rushing at us on tv, radio, news, internet etc. My mother was valedictorian of her high school (what did that matter her only role in life was to be a caregiver) and married my father during the war (very romantic as the story goes) and they had 6 kids. My mothers life was cleaning the house, taking care of the kids, and doing whatever her husband decided they should do. My mother loved my father for over 50 years but I can tell you when the last child left for college my mother finally claimed a life for herself. My father had a rude awakening when his wife stopped making his breakfast everyday and doing his laundry...she told him it was time he took care of himself while she read the newspaper...what a hoot.

Since I was a product of the 60's I can tell you my generation paved the way for you to get into industries that never allowed woman. It has allowed you to have choices in your life that our mothers didn’t have. My girls friends had to quit their jobs when they got pregnant as it was not allowed. My girlfriends and myself burned our bras in protest because we knew we were more than just caregivers and we wanted more in life than just be a "Leave It To Beaver" mom.

I think it is wonderful you believe those were wonderful times but you would not have had the backlash in the 60's if they were. I think you would learn a great deal if you read about the woman's movement during this time and why it happened...and no it wasn't because of drugs.:p

I think each person has to decide what they want into their lives and how simply they want to live. You can't blame society if you are the one that wants all the clothes, cars, vacations etc. When I got out of college I traveled the world with my job as a travel agent. I had to do this alone as my friends could not afford it but it was important to me. As an adult I have worked in a male industry and I was one of the first woman hired for the job I do/did...going to retire in a couple of weeks. I had a great career but a number of years ago I knew it was not fulfilling my soul and I needed to give back. I was lucky and met a wonderful woman who I joined forces with to rescue Yorkies in AZ. We saved over 50 dogs before I was transferred to Colorado and I am not doing rescue here. I can tell you in my experience in AZ there is no way in hell that a dog should be pronged, zapped, hit, flooded etc. I was the one who took the biters that were going to be put down and I have been bitten more than I care because of how frightened these dogs became because of abuse, children, poor dog ownership etc. I still have two of these dogs and they no longer bite but do I trust them a 100% - No because they were beaten and when I raise my hand to close to their heads I can see the fear in their eyes.

In terms of kids getting spanked..yes I was spanked (even at 50 I would duck if my dad swung his arm up and we would laugh )but I also know of a number of kids beat within an inch of their lives. I also know many adults that have never gotten over the beatings they took as children. Kids were property just like dogs are now and maybe children were beaten to death and laws were finally put in place to stop this and I can only hope stronger laws are put in place against cruelty to animals. My sister has her PHD in child psychology and has an active practice. It is known that if people beat their children then they beat their animals (from a little bit to almost killing). My sister never spanked her kids (even if at times I wanted her to because they mouthed off) but her kids turned out fine and are very intelligent, concerned for the world young adults). My nephew who is only 22 years old travels to Nepal to help out the people in a certain village. My niece (28) is an aspiring actor (been on 5 tv series) and now is helping other young people that hit Hollywood and are lost.

I think we are a quick fix society and also a throw away society that wants everything now…that is why everyone ran into trouble with the economy because they are using their credit cards to buy, buy, buy. Very few people (including myself) wait until we can pay cash for the house, car, computer, etc. Where I stop at is, throwing away living creatures because people won’t put the time into their animals or even understand the commitment behind buying an animal that will be with you for 10 to 15 years. I will never forget a heated debate here on YT when a person (young) made the comment to me that I bet your Yorkies are ugly and I said “what is your point”? These animals do not live with me because they are pretty or make me pretty or cool but because they were abused and when you look into their eyes and understand where they have come from and where they are now…they are beautiful. Life is a never easy no matter what the time frame you grew up in…When my father died he wanted to be buried in Arlington (which he is) because during WW II he lived life to the fullest because he never knew if he would make it through each day. Each day was very special to him. My father earned the Distinguished Flying Cross as a pilot in the Navy - it really is a miracle that he came home but my point is that many of us would not consider living through a war as the best of times in someone’s life. Right before my father was killed at 75 he was contacted by the Navy to help write a book on one of the worse battles in the Pacific of which he was part of. Sadly he died right after 2 chapters were done.

I am sure all of this is the reason I do not believe in any form of fear training for animals. I know they are animals first but they only want to give back love and total devotion to us and look at what society does to them - 4/5 million pets put down every year.

I am sorry if I am rambling on but you know how we old people :p do this.

Great book. I also love Whole Dog Journel and Cummings school of veterinary medicine at Tufts University "Your Dog" magazines...they always have great articles on dog behaviors along with advances in medicine to what is healthy food and healthy living. I think you would like both.

There it is in a nut shell.
Totally the whole point.
You can not teach a dog anything while it is under stress.
They can not learn it will not stick.
They are doing everything out of fear or stress and under non stress they will not remeber or the stress kicks in and a dog under stress lives a markedly shorter life... Yes so does an aggressive one. Stress kilss. Cortisaol.

I said this better before but the post poofed yet again. must remeber to copy and then send.

As for shoke coller stuff my complete dislike of his using them comes from the knowledge he pushes a dog to a directed bite and that was left on the cutting room floor and if it had not been for the governing body that is a watch dog for animal use in films and TV we would not know that he is abusing animls and has been asked by them to stop.
We do not kow in the clip posted here what is on the editing room floor at all. We do not know if things went as bad as the other time.
That he covers up and does nto admit to his mistakes is not for the betterment of himself or the dogs he works with.

Here is an open letter by a leading world PHD Behavioiurist on shoke collers
shockcollars

Want to read more

Say No to Shock Collars
Harvard Gazette: Brain changes in learning measured
Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy Study Group - Electronic training aids
Shock Collar, the Dangers of Illusion, Pinch (prong), Choke and Shock collars

JL

I do not believe that Cesar abuses dogs.

Certain groups of people will say or do anything for attention. I believe that if they had evidence of abuse that he would be shut down, locked up and lose all sponsers.

Don't believe everything that you hear.

I'm not sure what your agenda is but you do not have me convinced of anything except that you would do or say anything to discredit Cesar.

if you look long enough you will find something to support your theories, however just because someone wrote a book about shock collars does not mean that they know any more about it than Cesar does.

One person says one thing another person says the opposite. Who do you believe. You believe what you want to believe, we all do. Does not make us right or wrong, just our own beliefs.

You don't like Cesar, I do, and you are not going to convince me that he abuses dogs or that you know more about dogs than he does.

Hey, no I don't mind you rambling at all! Thank you for sharing your story and I love hearing actual stories of people who grew up in that time, as I did not, so I definitely don't have as clear-picture view that someone like yourself would have. I actually believe it was the '60's when things started going downhill, LOL. I also wanted to point out that I don't believe things were perfect, by any means. I feel like every generation has their weaknesses, as well as their strengths, but lately I've just been disgusted by the human race in general. However, I need to sit back sometimes and remember how grateful I should be to be living in such a place as America. Actually, when I graduated high school, I decided to travel all over the place with a great group of friends and it was the best time of my life. We went all over the US, going from Ohio to Seattle, into venturing into Vancouver, BC and Victoria, BC. It was an absolute blast and I'm extremely grateful I was able to do such a thing.

Everything I bolded I totally agree with (not that I disagree with your non bolded statements, the bolded ones are just ones that stuck out to me!) I think animal abuse is absolutely horrifying and terrible as well as child abuse. I do NOT agree with it at all. But that's where I differ I guess... spanking does not seem cruel to me. Could I do it to my own child? Probably not! I'm not that kind of person. I'm just saying I don't find Cesar abusive so I guess that's why I can't make a clear argument here. Because I agree with everything you're saying... yet don't. Argh! lol. And here I sit defending Cesar but I've never actually DONE any of these techniques really because I've never had to. I don't own a larger dog currently and I have never trained one. I've grown up with them, but never trained them. I occasionally volunteer at a shelter where we rescued my dad's dog from, but they also don't take aggressive dogs generally.

Basically, I think Cesar is a good person with a big heart, who loves dogs and means well. I don't think he is abusive but I don't think he's "soft" either. I think he's done a lot of good for the dog owners of America and I really enjoy watching his program and learning different methods. Have I ever alpha rolled my own dog? No. Have I ever so called "kicked" my dog? No. But I most definitely portray his calm assertive energy and his exercise, disipline, affection. On the other hand, I do look at Jackson like he's my child, but I still treat him like the dog that he is at the same time. I let him sleep on my bed and he doesn't think he's Alpha. Even Cesar does different things for different dogs, most of the time he teaches that the dog walking in front of you is bad but other times he will allow it depending on the case. He differs his methods every case. So, there's always exceptions to rules and ways and it's just how each invidual decides to go about it. I'm always up to hear others training methods as well.

YOu can believe what you want but I can tell you that Joy has studied and learned from some of the top behaviorist in the USA/Canada because of her little dog and the issues she has. Please do not disrespect her opinion and try to say she has an agenda. You do not have to look long or hard to see the top behavorist and the Humane Society are against some of his methods. You do not have to see abuse to understand mental abuse of dogs and this is what many of these people are against.

:thumbup::thumbup:

[QUOTE=livingdustmops;2748801]Besides tons of great books out there I also subscribe to Whole Dog Journel and Tufts University Vet School Newsletter "Your Dog". Great Stuff and both magazines always have a training section...June issues has an article on Keep them entertained and engaged as they age...it actually shows you how to teach them to play an electronic keyboard..what a hoot.[/QUOTE]

That is soo funny you say that (what a hoot) because I have one friend who says that ALL the TIME and I always laugh because I hardly ever hear anyone say that phrase, lol.

I can't seem to shut up on this thread!

WRT the bulldog episode... I did not think the bulldog seemed exceptionally stressed, and I didn't think Cesar was abusing her. I do think he was unnecessarily rough, as he often is, and he is often provoking the aggression he says he sees in the dog. Use the right tool for the job.

Compare this with Victoria's latest episode -- there was a chihuahua named "Killer" who was extremely people aggressive, and had bitten not only the owner, but the owner's two-year-old daughter. Bella the bulldog had only one bite to her name, and that was in a food-guarding situation. I'm sure NG could have shown the Chihuahua and blared "the dog actually named Killer... she's out of control... she's bitten children... will this dog have to be put to sleep?". And of course, showing lots of slo-mo shots with this dog snarling and lunging at people.

Instead, Victoria said, "this is a very stressed, fearful dog" and yes, gave her treats to bond with her, gave her a nice little house, and told the owner to spend more time with her. That's it. Would this dog have submitted if Cesar grabbed it by the scruff of its neck and pinned her to the floor? Probably. But again, why do it the hard way when you can go easy?

========================
Basically, I think Cesar is a good person with a big heart, who loves dogs and means well.

Yea - high five - we agree on this. I don't think he is a bad person either...IMHO he is just using old skills that my fathers generation used.
=====================

I agree with this too. :)

I like Cesar i think his methods in training are the best i seen. I don't really like Victoria though her methods seem to ... idk the word but if you have a dog that needs a lot of training you cant just keep giving it treats. Cesar seems to find better ways to reward the dogs then just treats like so many other trainers that rely on that too much.

:confused::eek: and if there was one for falling over laughing my head off at just how wrong that is I put that up too.

Seriously... to funny. You all but had me thinking you meet this.

NO one at the level I hang with and learn from or tend to deal with in my life in this area would very think this was anything but the complete desire to learn and teach and share.

We all are far to busy to find things to support us and our beliefs when it right there on the TV screen in each and almost every pain filled stress filled second the dog is on the screen and even off.

Please do not belittle me, my leg work the hours and hours of study and the complete and total sacrific I have made for the life of one dog by say such things.

JL

Cesar also has had several episodes with nasty little chis. Apparently this is normal behavior for these little dogs. He did not have to use anything on the dog, nor did he bribe the dog. he simlpy did the Chhhhhht and by the end of the show the dog was letting the baby touch him, which he never did before.

Different dogs, different problems, require different tactics. With Victoria, I get the feeling once you run out of food the dog ill no longer behave. She has them feeding the dog everytime it does the right thing. He corrects when they do the wrong thing and rewards with affection when they do the right thing. And that is more in accordance with what happens in the dog pack. If you behave I won't snap at you. The top dog does not run around with a bag of treats.

Sorry - what does WRT mean? lol. I can't seem to get out of this thread, either. I keep popping in from my iPhone too, lol.

I never saw that episode you're talking of with Victoria (damn! I need to catch up!) but yes, I guess you could consider maybe he is making it harder than it truly is. But in all honesty, I'd be a lot more comfortable trying to train an aggressive Chihuahua than a large American Bulldog. It'd be a lot easier for me to get myself to slowly give treats to a tiny "evil" chihuahua than trying to cozy up to a 80+ pound Bulldog in the nice way, lol. I don't know.

Oh, the one thing I do like about Cesar's show more is how the owners send in updates on the dogs he worked with, and they're honest... sometimes the dog has not improved at all, sometimes the dog is doing good on most things but still working on others, but others the dog is 100% different. I like seeing the updates from the owners home videos and not TDW camera crew because then you know it's real. That's just something I've always liked about the show.

One thing that actually annoys me about Victoria's show is the way they shoot it, the camera angles and views. Maybe that's just me being my weird geeky self but I don't like the things that seem "acted" out... like when they show the owners in the kitchen arguing over the dog or something, that just irks me because I know some camera crew was there trying to tell them what to do and it's kind of acting. It just bugs me. (We've been on the news many times for my little brother's foundation we started and they do this stuff to my mom and stepfather - make them do normal stuff in the kitchen and film, or something, lol, it's so awkward) And when they do a shot from down from the dogs point of view with Victoria saying "stay" and holding her hands out or something. But I don't know, I think that's the main reason I like TDW better than IMoTD - it always seemed to have a more "real" effect to me. I know it's all just part of television, both shows, but that's just something I picked up on.

One thing I actually love about Victoria though - I love when she brings her clients gifts, lol. The one I watched today she bought them a whole new bed spread and said there better be no dog hair on this when I get back! I've also seen her many times come into a pee stained house and bring a steam cleaner and help clean the house, etc. I think that's really cool of her.

CHHHHHT is an interuptor and it on its own will not fix a behaiour. What went on in the background off camera that hit the floor of the edting room????? right we do not know.

Joy

I actually would really LOVE to be able to talk to someone personally who has been on the show. It's too bad the Yorkies owners who have been on it don't belong to this site! ;) I'd love to hear their opinions since they had first hand experience.

I'm not belittleing you, making fun of you, or falling off my chair laughing at you.

Just exactly what did I say that wasn't true? I have watched hours and hours of TDW and at the end of the show I see happy dogs and happy people walking and playing with their happy dogs.

Quicksilver, on the other hand is trying to teach, and is also open minded and trying to learn.

You can't teach someone who already knows everything.

:thumbup:

We do not know that there was anything cut. As long as you're convinced that there is more going on behind the scenes, there is no reasoning with you.

Maybe Victoria switches dogs, and the bad dog is removed and the well behaved trained dog is put in it's place.

The chhhhht stops the behavior and redirects them. It would not be very effective if a dog were lunging at your throuat, but it does stop unthreatening bad behavior.

He's been in Omaha. maybe I should call him to come to my house.

I agree with that. I do find it funny when in some cases when it's from the dog's perspective, but I really hate the new format where she watches the owners on tv, exclaims over everything they are doing wrong, and then has a catchphrase like "I better get back there are help them out." I'd be happy to see that go.

WRT = with regard to. :)

WRT (ha!) treats - Victoria uses treats appropriately, and often does not give treats. Like with that little Pomeranian who lived with the Aussie Stains, she simply did not respond to his barking. When he stopped, after 20 minutes, she paid attention to him. She also used body blocking to keep both dogs out of the kitchen while the owners ate. And she used negative reinforcement with Stains (remotely scolded him) when he tried to steal food. So it's not like she is showering treats out left and right.

I DO think it can be hard for owners to work treats in and out of the learning process, and I am struggling with this now. Treats should be used to teach and guide the dog, and then once it's a habit, treats should stop.

I certainly hope people read this (Joy posted it) and understand what is going on.

http://www.learningdog.com/articles/...64436/7096.htm