Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 2750508)

Okay, then, I feel that I have expressed my opinions on this, but I'm happy to repeat myself. In my non-expert opinion, I don't think Cesar has handled all that many truly extreme, aggressive cases. Lots of his training is fine. However, he often acts in a provocative way towards dogs, and then uses their reactions to prove his original contention. In several episodes in early seasons, I saw dogs make moves as if to bite him (always accompanied by ominous music). If those dogs had really been aggressive, they wouldn't have been posturing. Cesar was actually lucky that those dogs were much less aggressive than he claimed. I'm not even sure it's all Cesar -- I think the format of the show likes to emphasize the scariness of the dogs Cesar is working with and how they are THIS CLOSE to being put to sleep.

As I have also said, most of the owners Cesar works with are c-l-u-e-less. They know absolutely nothing about dogs, most have never taken their problem dogs to a class or a trainer. Who here on YT would complain about their horrifically aggressive yorkie, make no effort to train it, and then decide it should be PTS because it was such a problem? I mentioned a show where a dog rolled on its back in an effort to pacify Cesar and the owners thought the dog was taking a nap!

It is true I have much less experience with dogs than Cesar, and I would not be able to get the kind of results he does - not even close. Maybe in ten years. At the same time, you don't seem to give any weight to people who have studied dogs for years if their opinions don't mesh with your own, so I'm not sure why I should be held to a different standard.

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 2750508)

Okay, then, I feel that I have expressed my opinions on this, but I'm happy to repeat myself. In my non-expert opinion, I don't think Cesar has handled all that many truly extreme, aggressive cases. Lots of his training is fine. However, he often acts in a provocative way towards dogs, and then uses their reactions to prove his original contention. In several episodes in early seasons, I saw dogs make moves as if to bite him (always accompanied by ominous music). If those dogs had really been aggressive, they wouldn't have been posturing. Cesar was actually lucky that those dogs were much less aggressive than he claimed. I'm not even sure it's all Cesar -- I think the format of the show likes to emphasize the scariness of the dogs Cesar is working with and how they are THIS CLOSE to being put to sleep.

As I have also said, most of the owners Cesar works with are c-l-u-e-less. They know absolutely nothing about dogs, most have never taken their problem dogs to a class or a trainer. Who here on YT would complain about their horrifically aggressive yorkie, make no effort to train it, and then decide it should be PTS because it was such a problem? I mentioned a show where a dog rolled on its back in an effort to pacify Cesar and the owners thought the dog was taking a nap!

It is true I have much less experience with dogs than Cesar, and I would not be able to get the kind of results he does - not even close. Maybe in ten years. At the same time, you don't seem to give any weight to people who have studied dogs for years if their opinions don't mesh with your own, so I'm not sure why I should be held to a different standard.

Originally Posted by kalina82 (Post 2750543)

I think we have to remember that we only see a tiny portion of the training this man does. He's worked with dogs for so many years and we only see what's on tv. we dont know what kind of cases he's done before TDW or what he does that doesn't get aired.

Originally Posted by chattiesmom (Post 2750559)

Mercury, what Cesar does is NOT magic. Or mysterious or abusive. Keeping the TV series in context, I am sure that the cases that are shown on TV are more extreme than the normal doggie problems so we see the extreme end of the training scale.

If you spent a few hours with him, or with any trainer and gave yourself permission you could glean techniques and taylor them to suit your lifestyle. It isn't about emulating a specific trainer, its about finding specific training techniques that will work.

Think about a training technique as a computer program module. You modify modules to suit a customer's needs -- there is seldom a case where a customer would buy a business application off the shelf that would work without modification. The same is true with dog training. You glean, modify, test and if it works keep it, if it doesn't work, either you debug or you ditch it and start over.

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 2750508)

At the same time, you don't seem to give any weight to people who have studied dogs for years if their opinions don't mesh with your own, so I'm not sure why I should be held to a different standard.

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2750564)

We also do not see what he edits out. Or reorders around so that things look better then they are.
We do not see him aplha roll a dog off camera. we do not see him run the dog until he nearly drops. We do no see him zap a dog until he redirects a bite.
But it is done.
When watching the vidoe did you look at the dogs body language at all what did you see for eye blinks. head turns, shake offs, etc.
All signs of stress. Dog should not have been allowed to get to the state that it went off. No good learning can happen in that state and the indicators that he was going to go off are the lip lick and shake off etc. You back up a step or two in training so the dog can not rehearse that which you do not want and get the behaviour you do want and capture that.

JL

Originally Posted by kalina82 (Post 2750589)

what we don't get to see is what happens before hand in this video. I can't find the whole episode online so this video isn't really helpful because we can't see the whole thing. its hard to judge his methods on a partial video

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2750564)

We also do not see what he edits out. Or reorders around so that things look better then they are.
We do not see him aplha roll a dog off camera. we do not see him run the dog until he nearly drops. We do no see him zap a dog until he redirects a bite.
But it is done.
When watching the vidoe did you look at the dogs body language at all what did you see for eye blinks. head turns, shake offs, etc.
All signs of stress. Dog should not have been allowed to get to the state that it went off. No good learning can happen in that state and the indicators that he was going to go off are the lip lick and shake off etc. You back up a step or two in training so the dog can not rehearse that which you do not want and get the behaviour you do want and capture that.

JL

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 2750588)

Hi, I know I promised to post in this thread, but I just wanted to clarify, I am not a professional trainer, far from it. I'm very interested in training, I try to read a lot about it, and I volunteer at a rescue so I see a lot of "problem" behaviors. It's not my job to fix them though. Maybe someday. :)

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2750599)

Humm??? I am at this time not able to even find the link in this thread.. odd.
Oh well you are right though we need to see all of it even the stuff on the cutting room floor.

JL

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2750574)

I have spent any number of hours with several trainers and behaviorists.. lucky me and I do just that pick and choice what works for the dog I working on or couching client about.
But all to many do emulate Ceaser and his macho ways and dogs are paying the price.
Actually having thought of it quicksilvers view is right most of the dogs he works with have stinking amazing bite control...hummm. now what is up with that??? Must go ask a freind.... face book calling
Oh yes I know now cherry picked.... cool why did I not think of that.

JL

Originally Posted by kalina82 (Post 2750607)

forget about the cutting room floor for a minute. here is the video posted. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/2749576-post217.html i know you wouldn't have tapped the dog but lets suppose the dog just lunged at you for whatever reason. how would you have handled it? i would like to know because i've done the same thing Cesar has done to prevent getting bitten. any other ways of handling a dog like that would be great.

Originally Posted by chattiesmom (Post 2750618)

Fortunately for me, I have spent countless hours over the past 20 - 30 years with many well respected dog trainers (obedience, agility, even a police K-9 trainer from Belgum) a few horse trainers as well as attending a plethora of teaching classes and reading countless books including Cesar's. Lucky me. I have respected and learned from all.

I have found that the best training methods involve thinking on your feet, being creative and not closing your mind to any method that will work as long as I do not get hurt, my dog does not get hurt and my dog is more relaxed at the end of the training session than at the beginning.

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2750627)

First of all I never set a dog up to lunge at me. Way I train is not to have a dog repeat and there for ingrain a behavior.
He set that boy up to fail and he is choking. That is gasping for air.
He is fighting cause he is choking.

Ton of lip licks and a ton of blinks.
As for the kick not needed if he not set him up of fail.

That was him trying to save him self and keep alive and on the ground is whipped puppy that had given up.

JL

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 2750748)

Okay, back for more scrapping.

Read a little on CAT, looks interesting. It actually looks like the "gypsy horse break" thing I was talking about before.

Watched the husky vid with Cesar. I think that's past my abilities to analyze. I do see that the husky did not turn on Cesar until Cesar kicked / tapped / nudged / sprinkled the dog with fairy foot dust :rolleyes:. Why not use a gentler technique and save yourself the cost of a new shirt? It's also well known that dogs often get more aggressive when they feel restrained (like, if you have a leash tied up behind your ears). I have made that mistake myself. I was walking a dog-aggressive boxer, and these people with their dog ran up to greet me and tell me how beautiful she was. My error, I should have warned them away, but I wasn't quick enough, and I pulled the boxer's leash tightly to keep him under control. That prompted him to snap at the other dog. I felt awful, hopefully lesson learned for me.

My guess is that Cesar wished he put a muzzle on the dog. I'm also guessing that another trainer would put much less pressure on a dog to begin with. VS generally starts by walking the aggressive dog well behind a calm one, and gradually letting the dog sniff the front dog's butt. Then maybe they start walking side by side, but 50 feet apart. If the dog begins to aggress, she takes a time out. Gradually, the dogs get closer and closer, until the dog can tolerate face to face contact.

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2750627)

First of all I never set a dog up to lunge at me. Way I train is not to have a dog repeat and there for ingrain a behavior.
He set that boy up to fail and he is choking. That is gasping for air.
He is fighting cause he is choking.

Ton of lip licks and a ton of blinks.
As for the kick not needed if he not set him up of fail.

That was him trying to save him self and keep alive and on the ground is whipped puppy that had given up.

JL

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 2750758)

Misc thought: I understand the pleasure of the power walk. I started out walking Thor this way, and I've devolved back to relaxed, sniff what you want walk (though I do not let him walk in front of me. I don't believe it means he's alpha, but it does mean he isn't paying attention to me). I want to get ready to formally teach him the Heel command. Anyway, it used to crack me up looking at him on a Power Walk, because he really looked all business. Put a little suit and cell phone on him, and he could have running late to close a million dollar deal.

Originally Posted by Britster (Post 2750924)

LOL, so true. I can see little Thor now. You should buy him a suit - that'd be great. ;)

And I usually let Jackson wander off at some point in the walk as well. I think it's only fair. He does so great walking that I like to let him sniff what he wants, mark whatever trees he wants, and then we'll go back to me being in control for the last part of the walk. Generally, I like to start and end the walk that way.

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2750938)

Cesar has let up a little on the not allowing the dog to walk in front, he has instructed people to let the dog investigate for a while.

I think Cesar is learning and and adjusting his method all along.

No trainer knows it all and there is always more to learn.

Originally Posted by Gingergirlsmom (Post 2751041)

Oh, and I know a really sad story about a golden retriever. He was a sweet dog. He was a huge retriever. He was turned into a local shelter because he had bitten his owner's hand. The doc at the emergency room said it was the worst dog bite he had ever seen.

The dog was taken in by a no-kill shelter and sent to live with a local trainer who uses only positive methods and who has had a ton of success with rehabilitating dogs. After 6 months, he attacked and bit her. He's since been put down.:(

I'm not saying another trainer might have had different results. But, I'm saying I think there is room to believe that no one method or type of training is perfect.

jmo

Originally Posted by Gingergirlsmom (Post 2751033)

I love Cesar. I also like Victoria. I struggle enough with my two angels, I think anyone who is able to work with difficult dogs and their owners and turn a miserable situation into a pleasant one must be doing something right. Even if their methods disagree. There is more than one way to skin...:eek:;)

That being said, I watched the video of Cesar with the husky several times and I saw the little tap Cesar gave the dog on his hind quarters. It was a little tap. I'm sorry, I just can't see that as abusive. The rest of the time, Cesar remained incredibly calm, I gotta tell you if that dog were coming at me like that, I'd be on the floor in a fetal position.;):D So, maybe, if nothing else, watching Cesar is teaching me to approach mine and other animals calmly, no matter what. How can that be a bad thing?

Originally Posted by Gingergirlsmom (Post 2751041)

Oh, and I know a really sad story about a golden retriever. He was a sweet dog. He was a huge retriever. He was turned into a local shelter because he had bitten his owner's hand. The doc at the emergency room said it was the worst dog bite he had ever seen.

The dog was taken in by a no-kill shelter and sent to live with a local trainer who uses only positive methods and who has had a ton of success with rehabilitating dogs. After 6 months, he attacked and bit her. He's since been put down.:(

I'm not saying another trainer might have had different results. But, I'm saying I think there is room to believe that no one method or type of training is perfect.

jmo