Hope it is all useful and helpful.
All I can find in such short notice.
Need More I may be able to pull some of the stuff I worte if I have that memory stick unpacked.

JL

Yes I agree
Cesar has studied dog packs and has studied how they communicate with each other.

That is what the magic is. Not how he handles agressive dogs.

He walks into a room watches the dog and then makes one move and the dog stops his bad behavior. That is the magic.

The rehab of agressive dogs takes much more but it still boils down to learning how to communicate with the dog.

As I stated earlier, a dog that was removed from his mother too soon does not understand dog language, so he has to figure out how to gt thrugh to them.

He first has to teach them the language and sometimes that can be difficult and takes getting physical. But if left the way they are they would have to be put down.

Other methods may work too, but this is how he does it. IMO the touch with the foot is like the sdwat on the butt of a 2 year old who refuses to listen. It just gets their attention and lets them know that yhou mean business. And no it is not done in anger.

Some people believe that spending hours in a battle of wills with a child, to get them to stay in time out, is the way to go. I believe a quick swat on the butt is much more effective and less damagiing to the child. It does not break their spirit, it merely lets them know that they had better stop what they are doing and stop it now.

And since child behavior specialists change their reccomendations every generation, I'm sure 20 years from now, time outs will be considered old school.

As for giving dogs drugs to control their behavior, I believe that is jsut as bad as giving children drugs to control their behavior. Too many kids are put on drugs when what they really need is more exercise, more sleep, more attention, and a better diet. But parents don't want to hear that.

I've got to stop reading this thread, ha ha.

Just want to say one thing about VS recommending meds for that dog. First, while I like VS very much, I don't worship her or think she is flawless. Maybe it was wrong to give the dog meds, I can't say. However, I do want to point out that I believe this is the first time on the show she has ever recommended meds for a dog, and I was happy to see her do it, because many dogs can benefit from medication, just like people do. I think more people should be aware of this option for seriously damaged dogs.

It's a very interesting area, and it gives us insight about how these drugs work on us, since they are probably affecting the same brain areas. A common model of the brain is the oldest part of the brain, our reptile brain, which is really basic stuff like fear; then on top of that is the mammal brain, which has things like social function; then we have our big crinkly cerebellum that gives us things like abstract thought. Obviously grossly simplified, but that indicates that meds that work in dogs and humans are working under the cerebellum.

Anyway, VS also brought in an experienced veterinarian to assess the dog as well, she didn't just say, this dog seems upset, let's give it some drugs.

I haven't been commenting on this thread in a few hours because I was running some errands and have been out of the house, but I just caught up. I really have nothing more to say yet, as Chattiesmom and Nancy have basically summed up all of my thoughts and are much better explaining than I am so there's no need for me to add more.

I wanted to make a comment on this quote though... I honestly don't believe a person is truly happy alone. That's just my belief. I love my alone time but would never want to live the rest of my life truly alone. I've met a few people in my life who live really sad lives really and they act as if they're happy, but you can see by looking in their eyes that they're not. I know that's a little bit O/T but I just wanted to state my opinion on that. Yes, some adult dogs would prefer to be the only dog in the house but they were not born that way; they were born in a pack. Humans create a dog who wants to be the only dog by spoiling them, and then they learn that when another dog comes into the picture, attention goes off me but I don't think it's a natural way of dogs being. Dogs are highly social creatures who, in my opinion, need interaction of a lot of friends of their own species to fully live their life.

Sometimes I think you want to either fully endorse someone or hate them, I don't think this is really necessary, since as many have said earlier, not everything is known yet. You give great tips on the training forum and I love reading your replies, but I don't care where you've learned them, if they sound like something that would work for Joey, I will try it, (as long as I don't think it's abusive). :D I do want to make it clear that I'm not against meds; I thought she should have tried training first, but all she did was remove the other dog, and notice that the dog was anxious. When the vet came he noted it too, and believed the dog could be helped with the drugs. Then after the dog was on drugs, she tried the experiment of removing the anxious dog first, and taking it out of the house, and then removing the dog's pal. Since the dog could not see the removal of his pal, when he returned, he suffered from no anxiety. It was not the fact that the dog wasn't there; it was seeing the dog removed that made him anxious. She later said that the drugs take several weeks to work, yet her experiment worked immediately. I'm saying that the experiment should have been performed before the drugs, perhaps they weren't necessary.

I've seen Cesar do the same thing, and he gets the dogs into a relaxed state, and moves the other dog further from first dog, in small steps, if the first dog shows any anxiety, Cesar backs up, and calms the dog down, and continually reinforces with this calming type of behavior, the second dog eventually goes to the next room, and finally the door is closed, the steps are tiny, and where most trainer would do this with a food reward, Cesar is using this calming stance with them as the reward. Someone else could probably explain this calming thing better than me, but I really love the idea of training without all the food rewards, or meds. However, nearly all my training with Joey has involved food rewards. They are still useful for potty training, trick training, and getting Joey use to new people.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I thoroughly agree with this! Those people who would rather live alone, have learned that is easier for them. Some people just don't have the skills to cope with other people, and many have had traumatic events and huge betrayals, by what they thought were their loved ones.

Cesars method and theory is centered around having studied how dogs communicate with each other and communicating with them in the same manner. Just like Monty Roberts does with horses.

Cesar is the leading athority on this method and he has written books on it. I am quite sure that he has read dogs wrong and has learned along the wayd. That is what life is all about.

He says he is not a dog trainer, he trains people, he rehabilitates dogs..

How can you work on the issue of the dog attacking other dogs, unless you bring in another dog? The dog was just fine until the other dog came into the picture. He tried to get the dog to refocus by bumping him. Well the dog refocused allright. He refocused on Cesar. I'm sure every trainer has misread a dog if they work with enough of them.

Not sure why researches would need to follow him around, and maybe they are, how do you know they aren't?

He has written all there is to know about his dog psycology. not much more to be said if you agree with it. Of course there is a lot to be said if you don't agree.

Why not just put the whole world on Prozac and then there wouold be no wars, everyone would be happy.

Now there is a situation that has been studdied to death. But nothing being done. Too many people on anti depressents, and mind altering drugs. Many of them just need to get a life and to stop expecting the world to make them happy.

Children on drugs, sit in classrooms like zombies.

Now you think we need to drug our animals as well?

That is a matter of opinion. I'm sure he doesn't always get it right, but then I'm sure that you don't either. It's all learning all the time, with everything in life. When you get older and wiser you will realize that you don't know nearly as much as you thought you did.

Drugs would not been given by her without a vet or a behaviorist able to write the prescription doing so.
Which requires blood tests and a check of the thyroid and blood count as well as a full physical to rule out other causes of the problem.

Dogs can and are chemically imbalance just like some humans are so they need help.

Some go on it short term so the stress level is down and learning goes up. Some have to be on it for life and some can use while training bio calm or rescue remedy to help take the edge off.

Some do not need drugs at all.
But for those that do , thank goodness there is.

If You have a look at Temple Grandins work on animals and autistic humans it very interesting how the brain is very similar. Like the same simalir between a dogs and a autistic person.

JL

How do you know they aren 't studying it? But it is rather difficult to test because each dog is an individual and depending on how they were raised and what their issues are they require different things. no two dogs problems are exactly the same. So you are not comparing apples to apples.

But the real issue here is whether or not he abuses dogs. that is what the original accusations were.

Whether or not his methods are new or out dated or old methods revised is not the issue. My guess is that his methods were used a few hundred years ago when people knew their dogs and dogs had a purpose and were not beaten and abused and were not penned up in apartments alone for 12 hours a day, and their owners were not on Prozac and were not taken from their mothers at 6 weeks old and sold at flea markets to idiots that have no bsiness owning a pet rat let alone a dog.

but none of that is the issue. Yorkiemother accused him of abusing dogs and claimed to have top secret insider information on the matter from people who had signed silence contracts and therefore cannot report to the authorities that they saw Cesar abuse dogs.

Apparently you missed the sries on the Wolfman, where the mqan lived with a PACK yup I said PACK of wolves. he lived with them slept with them hunted with them and ate with them and HE was the PACK leader. As LEADER he could come and go, only the leader can do that. Other members must stay with the pack.

When i remove one of my dogs from the PACK, for a trip to the vet etc. and then I return it, they all get on it as if to say, where have you been.

Years ago, I had a very smart little dog that would nip at me when ever I was gone and came back. Cesar and his theory were not around at that time, so I did not realize that this little dog was the leader, and I was not. This little dog also tried to be the leader of a litter of kittens and of a new born colt.

Oh I thought I was the leader cause I would tell her to sit, and she would sit and i would giver her a treat, I would tell her to lie down and she would obey and i would give her a treat. She obeyed all the commands and did all the tricks, but she did them for the treats.

Now I know that I am the leader of my PACK because Cesar taught me how to be, and my PACK responds just as he predicts that they should. I tell them to wait at the door and they sit in a row and wait until I say OK, and they get no treats, they just get me.

That is proof enough to me that his theory works.

:thumbup:

I think WAY too many people are on prescription drugs. Yes, some people DO need them but the fact that so many American's on are on anti-depressants is really quite sad. There's sooo many people abusing them and it makes the people who really need them look bad. We can never seem to find our own happiness and everyone always depends on something/someone else to make them happy, but deep down, YOU can only make yourself happy.

And believe me, I've had plenty of experience with anti-depressants/anti-anxiety medicine. A lot of family are on them. I 100% understand the feeling of just being completely lost and depressed in your life. It's the worst feeling in the whole entire world. I lost my 5 year old brother to a drowning incident in 2006 and an entire year of my life was lost during the grieving process of my little buddy. We've been through the terrible lawsuits where we had to hear every last detail of his dying minutes and how much he suffered, and sit through an 8 day trial watching a douche bag defensve attorney make my mother and stepfather cry, talk down to them, and talk as if my little brother were an object and not a human being. I still deal with it every day. I never once took any drug (prescription) even though offered to me and I'm now doing better than ANY one in my family, 3 years later. My mom is still slowly weening off of Xanax, as is my aunt, my step-dad continues to take sleeping pills every night, etc. I prefer to face my problems on my own. But yes, I completely understand in certain times, they are necessary. Losing a child is the worst thing you can go through in your life so I don't judge my parents for it. I see "ADHD" kids who were thrown on Ridialin at the tender age of 8 because they're "ADD".... no, they're EIGHT years old! EVERY single person I knew who took those ADD pills growing up in elem, middle and high school are ALL wacked in the brain. I knew about 8 people who took that medication. Some are suicidal, some are loners, some just got into bigger drugs, some played into the whole ADD thing and used it as an excuse, or thought they were dumb or stupid.

I'm totally going OFF topic and on a tanget. But drugs in general just irk me. Yes, sometimes they're absolutely necessary but only to a certain extent. I don't like so many living things depending on drugs to get through their every day life and don't think dogs should have to, either.

OK, making my post a little back ON topic.... I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advantage of the medical veternarian field for animals. Hey, we've got it, so let's use it, right? Cesar even had an episode where he used accupuncture to calm a dog... but I'm sure someone will come in and say he was being abusive because OMGGzz he stuck needles in the dog! I don't think it's wrong per say to give a dog drugs, but I definitely think the issues should be addressed VERY clearly and evaluated very thoroughly beforehand.

See post #315 in the Wolfman, the wolves did compete with him for status, and he had to prove himself.

But even without other dogs, they still have the humans so they are not alone. Dogs left to run the streets will join a pack.

Yep!

I find it way more instinctual than anything else. Jackson just GETS me. He will not walk out of the door before/ahead of me, I've never alpha rolled him, I've never poked him to get him to do that, I just use my energy to show him what I want. He does not walk in front of me on a leash, not because I give violent jerks or pulls or shoves or kicks or whatever else people claim Cesar does, I simply am calm, redirect him in the right direction, and he walks right beside me, proud as can be. And honestly, it sounds cheesy, but I do feel proud walking Jackson too so I know he can sense my energy. I walk with my shoulders up usually, dog walking right beside me, and it does feel GOOD, to know we've all got this under control. If we walk past a fence with two barking crazy dogs, he does not bark back, may get a bit excited for a minute, but he continues walking right beside me no problems. When I take him for a walk with my dad's two dogs, they definitely walk like a PACK. They enjoy being close together while walking... if Jackson is too far ahead, he waits up for the other two. However, the Jack Russell who I consider the dominant one of the bunch, is ALWAYS aiming to get in the lead and be in front. She pulls sooo hard on that leash. My stepmom has been working with her but she surely rules the roost. Jackson turns into a different dog around her energy! It's amazing, really.

I just 100% believe that dogs are pack animals. Yes, a lot of people can only own one dog (I myself only have Jackson but up until last week, he lived with at least one other dog 100% of the time) but that dog still has YOU. You two form a pack, form a bond, it's just what happens. If you think your dog would rather go live alone, I think that's totally wrong and untrue. They thrive off of the pack and they help each other. Other dogs have taught Jackson so many things (good & bad, LOL) and I can't imagine what I'd do without Jackson having canine friends.

I feel like we are going really far afield here, and methods for training dogs are getting compared to entire value systems and commentary about modern life, which I don't know how to address. The only reason I brought up the meds thing was as an example of VS continuing to use new discoveries to help dogs. It at most tangentially related to whether Ritalin is over-prescribed.

I feel like there's this undercurrent of "progress is bad" or "people are too soft" which somehow means that all research done in the past 50 years on animal behavior is meaningless, and there's no point in trying to learn anything more than we already know.

I honestly do not think Cesars methods are totally new, my father used to trian our own personal dogs using Cesars method of understanding. Oldtimers had a much better understanding of dogs horses etc. They lived more closely with them, they were not treated like people, they were dogs or they were horses not pampered pets.

Our dogs did anything and everything my dad asked them to do. and he never abused them and if he scolded them he always made sure to make up with them before walking away. He also trained horses, back when people actually used horses to work.

He also raised 6 kids and yes we were spanked, and we too would have done anything that our dad asked of us. Well except for those awful teen age years.

if you watch Cesar and then watch Super Nanny, their way of thinking is not so different. In both cases the dogs/children are out of control because the adult humans failed to provide clear leadership. it's as simple as that. once they instruct the parents on how to take back control, the dogs/children change their behavior.

As the old addage goes, don't keep repeating the same act and expect different results. In order for the situation or relationship to change, you first have to change yourself.

That is Cesar's magic secret.

Well I can tell you I do not believe progress is bad, and the good old days were much better, but I can also tell you that life experience has taught me that the experts often change their minds, not just expert opinion, but the individual experts. I don't think people are against new methods, as much as they are against someone saying that a method they have personally found successful is worthless and barbaric. I never see any posts criticizing other famous trainers, or methods, but I see plenty of posts where people criticize Cesar and his methods. I would never tell anyone, you have to believe in Cesar or you don't know anything, yet the reverse is often said here. It's not that we are pushing for Cesar; we are defending him.

JeanieK, I guess I would compare how I feel about training with what you are doing with Partis. What if someone said to you, "yorkies don't need improvement, why fix what's not broken?" Actually, I'm sure many people HAVE said that to you.:p But there must be something pushing you to want to move forward in this area, explore new possibilities, etc.

I think this is so true, and again she does not believe in spanking/hitting, but she often uses physical force to carry the child to the time out room. I think children who rule the house are extreemly unhappy, and I think the same is true for dogs.

I have seen people here say, "if you aren't pack leader, you cannot train." I've read many books that say if you take a dog's abused background into account, you are continuing its abuse. People make all kinds of statements, basically. I personally don't understand how everyone and their mother is shocked when someone comes on and says they rub their dog's nose in their waste (again, not something I would ever do), but they don't say boo about a trainer who has been filmed lifting dogs' feet off the ground with a prong collar. Honestly, I think a dog would rather smell poop - a lot of us try to get our dogs to stop eating it!

I get that people can present their ideas in a very rigid way, and that makes other people respond rigidly.

I have said nothing about your beliefs on training. I am just saying that Cesar does not abuse dogs. That is what the original accusation was. I have never said that other methods are not effective or wrong, just that his are not abusive and they do work.

I have never worked with an aggresive dog, I aimagine in doing so all sorts of things can happen. You cannot isolate a dog agressive dog and claim his behavior has been corrected if he has not be brought before another dog.

Extreme cases take extreme measures. I have asked what others would have done in the same scenerio. I never got an answer, except thqat he should not have put the dog in that circumstance.

I do not know what your methods are or how many agressive dogs you have rehabilitated, or seen you work. I have seen Cesar work and seen his successes and know that his theory has worked for me, and I'm guessing that he hs handled one or two more red zone cases than you have.

You are probably very good at what you do, but so is Cesar, and I will never believe that he abuses dogs.

And if his shows are edited and cut and all mishaps end up on the editing room floor as yorkiemother indicated, why was the episode with the huskey aired on NGC.

But I do not believe in drugging dogs or children to alter their state of mind. Anyone can calm a drugged dog. I believe that wearing them out with exercise makes much more sense.

:thumbup::thumbup:

I've often thought of raising children, and I guess this would also apply to dogs, like going to another planet where you don't know the rules and you get a guide that allows you to do anything you want, never tells you that you are doing anything wrong, then after 18 years, you are told that you have to be on your own now, and suddenly you have no idea of what is expected of you, everytime you do something it is wrong and you are always getting into trouble.

Or would you rather have a guide that explained things to you and made you do the right things and made sure that you were equipped to make it on your own.

Which guide would you rather have? Well the same is true for children.

Okay, then, I feel that I have expressed my opinions on this, but I'm happy to repeat myself. In my non-expert opinion, I don't think Cesar has handled all that many truly extreme, aggressive cases. Lots of his training is fine. However, he often acts in a provocative way towards dogs, and then uses their reactions to prove his original contention. In several episodes in early seasons, I saw dogs make moves as if to bite him (always accompanied by ominous music). If those dogs had really been aggressive, they wouldn't have been posturing. Cesar was actually lucky that those dogs were much less aggressive than he claimed. I'm not even sure it's all Cesar -- I think the format of the show likes to emphasize the scariness of the dogs Cesar is working with and how they are THIS CLOSE to being put to sleep.

As I have also said, most of the owners Cesar works with are c-l-u-e-less. They know absolutely nothing about dogs, most have never taken their problem dogs to a class or a trainer. Who here on YT would complain about their horrifically aggressive yorkie, make no effort to train it, and then decide it should be PTS because it was such a problem? I mentioned a show where a dog rolled on its back in an effort to pacify Cesar and the owners thought the dog was taking a nap!

It is true I have much less experience with dogs than Cesar, and I would not be able to get the kind of results he does - not even close. Maybe in ten years. At the same time, you don't seem to give any weight to people who have studied dogs for years if their opinions don't mesh with your own, so I'm not sure why I should be held to a different standard.

Okay, at this point I think I have (finally) said all I can say, and I'm going to try to keep my mouth shut.

I'm going to try to read all the links posted in this thread, and also watch the Cesar eppy on the Akita.

i've been gone all weekend and finally finished reading through all the debating that has been going on. i would like to go back to the main topic and not the little off shoots.

I do have to say that i agree that Cesar does not abuse dogs. I just watched that video with the husky and i thought he did a great job. I've worked with dogs like that husky and what he did with the leash is exactly what i would have done as well. if he held that leash any other way that dog would have been all over him. that dog was jumping up at him and biting, if Cesar didn't shorten the leash and hold it as far away from him as possible and with out much room for the husky to move that dog would have gone for his face. Huskies are very snappy dogs. They bite without warning or reason sometimes. their jaws are quick and when they get you, they get you quick and usually multiple times. Some will say that if he didn't tap the dog to refocus his attention that the dog would never have turned on him. if it wasn't going to be that tap that turned him, it would have been something else.

I watched the video first with the sound off. I saw him stare and posture towards that other dog. Cesar tapped him to get his attention off the other dog...he didn't kick the husky. I also did not see the dog being jerked into the air. the dog was lunging up into the air. when the dog's four feet were on the ground the leash was taught but not suffocating. When you have a dog on a leash that is trying to jump and bite at you, what would you do with the leash? hold it loosely at your side or would you tighten up on it and hold it as far up and away from you as possible? He was not struggling for air, he was out of breath from the struggle. he was not blue from lack of air, i've seen dogs lose color from lack of oxygen. he took 2 or 3 large breaths and recovered quickly. Immediately when cesar had him on the ground he loosened the leash on his neck and probably would have liked to do sooner but the dog was too busy trying to bite him. Nor did he lose control of his bladder... it appears that it just rained because everything was damp. I don't agree with what that vet wrote at all.