I agree also and He is a cutie pie for sure!

Ha, have to agree with all that! I DO think that most behaviour problems stem from lack of exercise and stimulation. So "exercise, discipline, and affection" is a perfectly fine place to start. I've heard that sled dogs are some of the happiest dogs in the world because dogs find it deeply gratifying to run together. Now, is the average person going to have an extra six hours per day to exahust all potential mischief out of a dog? Maybe not.

I think what YorkieMother was saying about watching the show with the volume off is that the dogs' body language often signals fear and appeasement towards Cesar, and he misses it. I have a bunch of eppy's saved, but I haven't looked for that yet.

YorkieMother, I respect your experience and knowledge very much, but sometimes your posts do come off very strong and somewhat belittling to people who have different opinions. I think if you softened your language, people might be more open to different methods, which is your ultimate goal, right? Just a suggestion. :)

Why anybody that is successful always gets a lot of criticism?

Dogs have to know who's boss otherwise they want to become the boss.

I don't think Cesar is abusing the dogs. Usually the dogs he deals with are very aggresive, spoiled rottens by us humans.and after he is done they love him!

let me put it this way, when we humans are out of control and do wrong things, we are send to jail, or a judge made us do community service to brings us down to a "submissive state of mind" (using cesar's words lol). or we are taken to a hospital for crazy people and you could be place in an isolated room. Othertimes, we are taken to a doctor that sometimes prescribe meds to makes us submissive. the point is nobody thinks this is abusive, we deserve it or it has to be done because we have been "bad".

why is it abusive when extreme methods are use on a extreme behaving dog?

I wasn't going to post again in this thread but I have to say, VERY good point! :thumbup:

It is not that he is successful that there is a need to be critial.
It is that he is far to rough and over bearing and does not read body language at all well of dogs.
As for him working with aggressive dog there are any number of trainers, vets and PHDs including the guys in dog town that work with far worse and never zap, poke or shove fists in mouths. Ever.
The guys aT dog town have a few of Mick Vicks pit bulls and they are out or about to go out in the world with rehab and be well.
I did not see Ceaser work with or be allowed to work with any of those dogs.
Those are the worse of the worse.

Extreme methods are not needed to rehab a dog it your willing to do it slow and easy and get there in the dogs time not yours.

Dogs do not want to rule the world they do what works and what is or makes them comfortable with the least amount of work.
Many are looking like my girl for the world and it just does not make sence to her how it all works. She needs the structure and the support that comes with understanding but inflected and rick solid with no flex when she was a bad day is not a good thing. LEader ship show be flexable. and give when needed and the way ceaser does it there is not give.
WHen this girl of mine goes off into space the last thing she needs is someone pulling at her leash going do it. She needs to chill and be left to settle so she can go back out and learn. Shut down is an ugly thing in both humans and in dogs and it not helped by getting tough. It is helped by support and drugs.

JL

Totally Agree:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I like Ceaser very much and I've learned alot from him:D I watch him every week. I do use his methods and they have worked with training my furbabies. I can definitely say that my furbabies are alot more balanced and calm then before :thumbup:

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Great post I totally agree

I tried last night to post this but a nice little summer strom got in the way.


Quicksilver although I quote you to start this is not directed at you just trying to shorten up the posting time for me. Thanks for the I respect thing, Thank you.

So again as I may have quoted you at the start of this post this is a finishing general comment to the thread and directed in total to you.

While I do understand what you are saying. It is next to impossible for me to take it down anymore or it will turn into mush. I not sure how to soft petal it anymore then I am.

It to me is like someone telling me after all these years that they bought their dog from a pet store and they did not know it was a mill dog.

I do wonder what rock they have hide under. Believe me it happened this weekend and I had to leave the room.

With this fellow it has been going on since the day he rolled onto TV and he is still around cause well he is cute and he makes for dramatic reality TV.

I not out to change the world or get him off TV but if one person reads this and thinks hard and goes a different way from him. I've done what I set out to do.
One will ripple to another to another to another and one day just like puppy mills are going out of business he will too.

While I understand I get laughed at or beat on I also understand that it is part and parcel of making change and others coming to a better understanding. What one does not know or understand or may make you feel uncomfortable or in the wrong means the messenger carrying that info gets beat on do to ones discomfort with the info.( I am not saying that you beat on me I am saying in general) I am ok with that.

Example the person that first said the earth is round
That puppy mills are bad.
That the biewer breed will be a breed.
That wolves are not pack animals.
That women should vote and should be equal.
That slaver is wrong.
That beating your child is wrong...why the SPCA came about in the first place was to stop child abuse ( yes I know it still happens but back then children where owned).... they all got beat on and look things changed.

For me it is truly one dog at a time. One owner at time.

If many in the board want to laugh go right ahead and do so, but humbly that is it in a nut shell. For me it is not ok to hurt a dog in the name of training and doing so is not anything less then abuse. Just cause we can make a dog do something does not mean we have the right to do so or should. Does not mean we let them run wild either we can control without force.


JL

I really agree with quicksilver and it also always seems you like to have the last word.

Yeah but you're whole idea goes right out the window for one important reason... he doesn't abuse or hurt dogs. The end.

First I do not need to have the last word I just come back and comment on someone else posts like this and the one that says I need the last word. When a post one like this in the face of continued facts it just silly.
This is a chat and a chat is two sided means that one person says one thing and another post something else and it goes back and forth. All this is,is a chat.

Blister when the Board that govenrs the vetss in the USA says he does.
When there are a boat load of PHD and behaviour DVM that do. Along with far more experinced dog trainers then I say he does
When the american Humann soicety says he does.You are flying in the face of facts with the comment that he does not. You may not want to see it you may even have to look hard at the way you have done things in the passed.

We do the best we can with the informantion we have at the time and when we know better we do better. Does not mean that we need to beat on ourselves or others as they did it the old way. Does mean we need to keep on learning. Someday as sceince contiunes to progress the way we do many things will change again and become out dated. We have to change and grow. We stand around with our heads in the sand things like global warming and many other needed changes be passed over cause we are to afraid that we made a mistake in the passed. That is not it at all. It is the fact that science is fliud and we learn things everyday so we cange to.
Maybe one day this suppossed new way of dogs will be out dated and we have to I do not know use a speical comunitaion device to train. I hope yet again if I am around for what ever changes there are that I have the courage to crossover and change too.
And if someon comes back and comments again on my post or tries to belittle me and tell me to be quiet as tehy are afraid I may be speaking a little truth I will post again. Not a thing to do with having the last word is call self defence.

JL

I totall agree. NOT raising or training your dog properly is abusive. Just like spoiling a child, they have a much easier time in life if they are corrected right from the beginning.

It's all just common sense. He has studied dog behavior and he knows how they communicate and he copies it. Plain and simple.

Ive never seen Cesar abuse any dogs either and Ive seen some episodes where hes dealt with pretty aggressive dogs

So you used a different method and it worked. No one ever claimed that Cesar's method is the ONLY way. It's just a very effective way.

What is cruel about learning a dogs language and speaking to them in thier own language? You can take the time to teach them ours and go that route too.

Dogs become vicious when they have been handled in a way that does not make sense to them. It takes someone who understands their language to get through to them.

If you have handled an abusive dog, good for you, but that does not make your way the ONLY way.

It's the end result that counts.

As for the Michael Vick dogs, they went to Dog Town and they rehabilitated them. That does not mean that Cesar (or you) could not have done the same.

I understand this is a debate thread, and debates can get passionate (get out! :p)...but please try to be respectful of each other. It's anyone's right to either support or not support Cesar...but, let's not take it out on each other for having differing opinions.

I think good info will come of this thread if it can stay open...:)

Exactly what I was going to say! This is a great debate, and I like reading info from both sides of this. We do need to remember that Cesear works with the worst, who otherwise would have lost their home or more than likely been euthanized!!!!

Cesear isn't from America where people treat their pets are part of the family. He learned from an early age that their must be a pack leader. I see so many people who their pets rule them, and then they wonder why they have behavior issues. As much as my animals seem like a part of the family, they are ANIMALS and they don't think like I do! I have learned alot from Cesear and have had great results. I have never watched Victoria so I can't say who I would like better.

There are alot of posts here that I completely agree with!

When I first got my lil' guy 2 years ago I discovered "The Dog Whisperer". My mother and I were HOOKED. There will always be some who hate him, and always some that absolutely love him.

I think he is great at what he does, and he has performed very touching reunions for pets and their owners (the Katrina episodes).

The only thing I disagreed with was one episode in which he put the lead (you know, the string type of leash/collar he uses?) on the yorkie's neck. It didn't seem to hurt that particular yorkie, but I know I wouldn't use that just because I believe in using harnesses (again, just an opinion). My baby has the collapsing trachea issue, so we are very careful about that. Anyway, i'm veering off.......Just wanted to put my two cents in here.

Britt & Uno

There is a ton of great info here and thanks for leaving it open.
Ok so I do not have to quote everyone and do a dozen more posts.
Actually no Mick Vicks dogs had to go to very specific groups that could manage these dogs under the laws in the states they went to and the guys that in took them first had to do an assessment and with those place them only those meeting highest standards.
I actully would not have been about to intact a vicks dog at the time that they where in need as I was in a place that does not by law allow this breed.

That be a whole other debate thread on breed bands and dogs bites and I not ready to open that can of worms. LOL

As for Ceaser these dog where looked at by vet and PHD behaviourist for liabilty reasons and for sure they not be allowing him to work with them.

Ceaser is not the only one that works with the worse of the worse there are any number of trainers out there from Dr Dunbar, Dr McConnell, Dr Bourque, Dr Dodman, Dr yin, Dr. Overall, Pat dennsion, Pat Miller, Emma Paresons,
Lesile Mcdermitt, Terry Ryan, Jean Donaldson, Brenda Aloff, and many many many more that can and do work with these guys . Oh yes the folks at dog town.

You say he does not abuse I keep saying shock collars are abuse and he uses them. NowI find he uses static mats.The collar he uses the one he made been cited for choking dogs, cutting of air to the brain of the dogs and their for rendering harm to them.

I just not sure how one can say that is not abuse. But then again it only a dog not anything packing the ability to think feel or reason at any level worth building trust and respect. Humm that was once said about wait couldit be the female humans at one time.
.

JL

Okay, I'm going to make one more post about posting, and then I will be quiet (about this). This is directed at everyone, including myself.

When you are debating a topic, you have to find something to respect about the topic of debate and those you are debating with. Otherwise, it will devolve into tit for tat comments. For instance, everyone who posts on this thread loves their dogs and is interested in training, otherwise they wouldn't be reading this thread. Lots of people don't care about training their dogs, so I respect people for just being interested, and thinking about how their dogs think.

I respect people who have studied canine behavior, who have read up on the subject, and who have degrees in different aspects of animal biology. I respect people who volunteer at shelters, and people who work with abused dogs. So even though I disagree with many of Cesar's methods, I don't think he is a bad man, because I believe he does genuinely love dogs and wants to help them.

I can agree with you on he is not a bad man and he does try and We all make mistakes at times and we can learn from them.
But billing him by others as the saving grace of aggressive dogs when he causes some to fall apart is not ok. I have seen a few changes in him as if he is looking at other methods but he still goes back to shock.

When someone is in the room that was more experince and understanding of behavior and is trying to explain and share, sometimes it be a good idea instead of attacking them that one could listen and look at what is being brought to the table instead of going I see no abuse, I see not abuse........Cause one does not have the skill set as yet to see it.
If one would listen and read one would get those skills.
I can respect that one is willing to try to train and is intrested in training and always a good thing as to many dogs are not soicalized and are not trained leaving to many of us to clean up the mess.

When I started out I was and still am a crossover trainer.. been there done the old way which I find fun as the new way if I am correct been around since about 1999. in the form it is now and a ton longer then that to skinners work.

When I first saw his show I though great but it took a freind saying turn down the volume use your eyes not his words to see really see and I was shook. His haert may be in the right place as is all of ours when we take on a tough dog but sometimes he needs to slow it way down and step back. His one size fits all method is not a good thing for many dogs.
Postive gives you a ton of angles to come at a dog.

Thanks been a nice chat.
I am sure someone raeding this was learned a great deal.
I know I keep up my practice of saying the same thing in differnt ways doing these threads. i amazed that I can keep my cool and not say half of what crosses my mind. LOL

JL

I watched an episode the other day where he used a shock collar on a HIGHLY aggressive American bulldog named Bella. The shock collar was literally on a vibrate, he did it on himself, he let someone else get "shocked" by it, the highest level was like 170 and he used it on a 50. You can tell it didn't hurt the dog, it just made her be like "oh man, better not do that anymore!" With dogs like that big and strong, I don't really believe it's doing any damage to them. I do think shock collars should only be used as a last resort, though. I would never use a shock collar on a little dog. And he wasn't abusing the shock collar. He used it a few times to get the lesson straight, and then the dog clearly understood so he didn't have to use the collar anymore. I just don't think it's that bad in certain cases but it all depends.

Then it will not work... goes back to please read excelarted learning( I can pull the right spelling and name again if you need it. To use the collar and make it work you need to zap it once and blow the dog right off its feet. You do zaps at ever slowly increasing ok that word will not come out my fingures....humm resay. ok if you start mild and get stronger the dog darn another word I can not spell resay.... gets used to it so that they do not get effected by the zaps at all and the coller does not have the efect you think it should. Now I can back that up with research out of ok that name gone too. I can pull it if you need to.

Zapers need to be set high very very high for them to stay working and then turned down.

What I am saying it that zapping works but the very first correction with it needs to darn near kill the dog to have a lasting change... and you better do it on the right dog or the wrong one will rediect a bite and get you or the dog will crumble. Wrong dog spends it life cringing at the beep warning that their is a zap coming or a phone beep that a messsage is waiting.. I seen it and we have one that will go to a bite on a beep cause of a zap coller. ( times out of ten that zap that strog will end it it is the tenth time that the dog crubles and you have to repair and work with the rest of your and its life that makes then not ok.

Ok I think that made sence.

JL

I'm not sure I entirely understand what you are trying to say... do you mean when using a shock collar, it must be turned ALL the way up in order for it to 'work'?

Here's the episode I was referring to, where I think the shock collar was used properly, and the dog needed something of the sorts. I would NEVER agree with using a shock collar on a puppy, small dog, or a dog who is not highly and extremely aggressive.

Episode: Hulu - Dog Whisperer: Bella - Watch the full episode now.

I think the problem with shock collars is people abuse them. Regular dog owners should not be allowed to purchase shock collars, in my opinion, because yes, then you may very well ruin the dog or get bit back, as you stated. You have to use them properly and not very much.

THIS is the WRONG way to use a shock collar... (As V.S. describes here:)

Well that explains why you think it is cruel. Cesar uses it to get their attention. Don't blow off his methods just because you don't use the tools the same way.

That is like saying a swat on the butt of a child won't work to correct their behavior, that you have to beat them for it to be effective.

Agree :thumbup:
Very good point.

Hang in there we are coming to an understanding... you have to know I am not trying to talk down to you. it is tough when I, ok that much not ahead but more into the reseach end of things to keep it simple without it being seen or misread as put down so stay with me.

You can get an dogs attention without zapping many of these guys with aggression it is lack of focus as well.. Like an ADHD kid but not totally.
I tough to as the research I have is at my house so give me a chance to log back in later as I have a vet run to do.. have a sick one here and will get this cleared up.

But in part yes you do for the coller to do what it was designed for it needs to be turned up full.
Now that said I have limited understanding of it in the use with hunt dogs and they do use it for attention and that is not needed either. So ceaser maybe coming at it from that end but in true aggression to stop attacking and bites they need blown off their feet.

When I get back I can. Sick kid comes first. no not stalling we are talking and all talking makes for good lerning.

JL

Yorkiemother I'm sure you have training information to share that many of us would find of value, but I do feel like you are beating us with a stick on this Cesar issue, and, as you know, beating someone with a stick, doesn't produce effective learning. I understand that you are strongly opposed to his methods, but I think you are focusing too much on what you don't like, and some of his work with dogs who were thought to be hopeless. I don't think any of us think Cesar is the only trainer who can offer us something, but you seem to be suggesting that if we accept any of his suggestions, we are abusing our dogs, and this makes me very uncomfortable. The same thing with other trainers who join Yorkietalk, I see the frustration in their writing in debating with you. Not that you shouldn't be allowed to offer your suggestions, but I think you sometimes aren't offering suggestions, but just saying, your wrong, and I'm right. Remember, much of this is just different people's opinion, and we are free to choose what we believe to be the correct method. I wish you could focus on how you believe to be the correct way to do something, instead of just focusing on how Cesar abuses the dogs.

As far as saying shock collars must be set on high before they will work, my knowledge is just in theory, not applications, but I can tell you there are two views to this. Some believe that a punishment should be given at extreme force the first time, because the organism acclimates to the punishment over time, but many believe that it does not have to be given at extreme force, that it can be used just as an attention method. The extreme force causes the "fastest" learning, but excessive force can cause other much more serious problems. For example, I use pennies in a can to reduce Joey's barking. Some would find this inhumane, but I try to produce an aversive sound that's just loud enough to demand his attention, but not so severe that it causes pain.

I am very interested to see some episodes of The Dog Whisperer now to see his training methods for my own eyes but unfortunately I do not have the channel his show is on.

Since I have never seen his show I can't really debate but I have been hearing that he works with the worst dogs.

I would be very interested to see him and Victoria both work with similarly sized dogs with the same behavior problem and see who is more effective. If her method without shock collars and static mats is just as effective or more effective then I think we can all agree that it should be done way.

Does Cesar try the positive-based and then move on to his method if it doesn't work?

This is what I don't understand...and I wish someone would explain to me why people are disagreeing with the experts that have studied dogs all their lives and have come out against his methods? Head of canine behavior with Tufts Vet school for one. If some of what Cesar endorses was done to any of my Yorkie rescues then the dogs would be dead as they bite first and ask questions second. I also don't understand why it is okay to zap a bulldog but not a Yorkie...why? I cannot endorse this type of training no matter what kind of dog it is used on.

As a side note I spent my summers at a girls ranch in Wyoming and they broke horses in a couple of days by beating the crap out of them and using a lot of cruel methods. This has gone on for how long until the horse whisperer came along and showed a whole new method to train horses - sure it takes longer but the same results without hitting the horses or hitting them with jackets or riding them until they almost collapse.

I get that he is interesting to watch (I watch from time to time) and I like his noise training to get their attention etc but for any of us that have dogs with issues I do not agree with his Alpha Roll method or his collar methods. Neither do the experts.

I think all of us can pick up different little methods but if the experts (animal behaviorists) that have their PhD’s in studying animals tell me that different theories are no longer applicable then I am going to listen to them.

I have posted what the experts have to say and here are a few more and obviously this debate is not just here at YT...it is on almost all dog forums. WOW!

The Anti-Cesar Millan | PetRescue

There is a quiet battle being fought in dog-training circles, and Dunbar, though he didn't pick the fight, represents one side. The mild, very mannered Dunbar is armed with degrees and scientific study: a veterinary degree and a Special Honors in physiology and biochemistry from the Royal Veterinary College of London University, a doctorate in animal behavior from the psychology department of UC Berkeley and a decade of research on the olfactory communication, social behavior and aggression in domestic dogs. All this, plus decades of dog-training experience.

Impressive, yes, but his opponent in this training controversy is backed by big business, Hollywood celebrity and, even worse, some say, the power of charisma. Cesar Millan, a.k.a. the Dog Whisperer, has his own television series on the National Geographic Channel and is churning out a burgeoning enterprise of videos and books. The subject of a recent New Yorker profile by Malcolm Gladwell, Millan is often photographed on high-tech in-line skates, leading a pack of pit bulls, rottweilers and German shepherds. The sexy Millan's dog-handling credentials include an upbringing on a Mexican farm, an "uncanny gift for communicating with dogs" and his Dog Psychology Center in Los Angeles. There, with a pack of 50 dogs, he rehabilitates wayward canines.


Cesar Millan: The Dog Whisperer? continuation page
Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Anti-C...an/97584126794

Anti-Cesar Millan's Photos - Other pictures | Facebook

Cesar Millan exercised a dog to death? - snopes.com

An interesting article regarding training & Cesar Milan [Archive] - Cavalier Talk: CKCS Discussion Board & Forum

Also give me a chance to change computors this one is hicuping and farting and doing strange things... ok another thing I hate when that happens with a computor. LOL
Cindy as alway well said but of course not read it all got to go.
Nancey will get back to you have you read the stuff by dr I think it is Leacher is his name if not will get it for you when I get back. Sick pup got to go.


JL