Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 2740221)

Let me add what I know here about packs vs. families. First, interestingly enough, we do not fully understand bird pecking order. Bird A can beat Bird B for a good food spot, Bird B can beat Bird C for another spot... and Bird C can beat on Bird A for the first spot. So dominance is not clearly defined, and even in wolf packs it is acknowledged to be fluid. Some wolfs are dominant in some situations but not others.

WRT to wolf packs vs. families, I think this is a valid criticism. The claim is that most of our studies are done on wolves (or dogs) forced to live with a large number of unrelated individuals. This can cause behavior that wouldn't be seen otherwise. In the wild, wolves are extremely shy. They generally only live in one family unit of two parents and one or more children. The father ranks over the mother, the mother ranks over the children, and the children rank by age. There is no question as to who is boss (note that baby wolves will still ferociously guard their food from everyone, suggesting that resource guarding is not a dominance behavior).

To demonstrate how different this is, I remember watching a wolf pack on APL where a female alpha wolf had killed her father to take control of the pack. Clearly this a night and day extreme, and one of the many things that makes me question dominance theory - how many people worry that their dogs may try to kill them in a bid for dominance?

I personally subscribe more to the idea that dogs see us as their mommies and daddies, which means that we automatically rank above them. That also doesn't mean discipline doesn't exist. This may be different when a large number of dogs live together, in which case pack theory may be more relevant.

To give another example, there are many "guard" breeds. A rottie may believe you are alpha, but still think it is her job to defend you. That's what they were bred for. At the same time, people will tell you that if a dog defends you, it thinks it's alpha. That doesn't make sense to me.

To use another example, I believe that insisting you walk through doors first has no analogue in the wild. How often are wolves squeezing through spaces single file the way we do for doors? However, I believe the discipline of telling your dog to position himself anywhere - front, side, behind - basically provides structure and rules, and that's why it has an effect.

Finally, we can take dolphins as an example, which are what Karen Pryor, the mother of positive training worked with. Dolphins are EXTREMELY rank oriented with each other, and often use force to maintain rank. Additionally cows are quite tough on their calves, in some cases even flipping them out of the pool for infractions. HOWEVER, you simply cannot train a dolphin with negative methods. Any kind of force won't work in the water, and they die of dehydration pretty quickly if they aren't fed regularly (they get their water from fish). So even though dominance and force are "natural" for dolphins, consider the amazing behavior we can train using different methods.

Okay, that's enough rambling for now. :)

Originally Posted by Britster (Post 2738161)

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...t=cesar+millan

This was one thread

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2742761)

Where to start.. ok birds are a straight line hierarchy and dogs and wolves and even dophines are not and chickens are the only being that is a stright line hierarchy.

I suggest you look into domiance theroy by james O heare and also there is a great DVD by jean donlason I think it is and Ian dunbar on dog training in a ceaser world. When i get home again ffrom the this trip will find the real title.

JL

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2742769)

One poster here said I hate training...... I can not find that post to quote.

What I wanted to say is that is so incredibally sad.

The way I train once you get the hang of it is fun and it can be done in the comerical breaks of an hours TV shows.

DID I say it is fun.
Once we and I include me cross over from the make them to ask them and wait and let them sort it out. There is nothing like the light bulb that goes off in thier heads and wow they are off.


JL

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 2742786)

Are you saying that birds are, or are not a straight line hierarchy? I was agreeing with you that dogs and wolves are not. :confused: I'm going to disagree with you on dolphins, because I've read quite a bit on this, even dolphin biology textbooks. Dolphins sleep according to rank. The higher ranked you are, the closer to the surface you sleep. It's better to sleep higher, because dolphins need to breathe air. I will caveat this by saying that dolphins in the wild are very hard to study, and they appear to form different pod structures. Also, of course, there is still the "forced pack (pod)" problem when studying them in captivity.

Karen Pryor mentions this in her book, "Lads Before the Wind". One researcher was trying to study dominance theory, and they isolated one or two dolphins. Unfortunately, by doing this, they disturbed the rank order, and when the dolphins were returned, they had to start on the bottom again.

Anyway, I think I was largely agreeing with you that dominance is complex and fluid, so it's a little weird to find you disagreeing with my agreement.

Originally Posted by chachi (Post 2739016)

I really like Cesar but I dont think all of his training methods work for small dogs. Some are geared toward bigger dogs. I enjoy watching his shows though

Originally Posted by Britster (Post 2738357)

I don't agree with static mats, however in the episode that Cesar used one, the dog constantly jumped over a ten foot fence. He would climb and really injure himself and get loose. I believe it was a Boxer. He placed a static mat where the dog would always jump over the gate. And since then, he has not been loose. I feel like in a case like that... What else are you supposed to do?

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2743057)

YOu got it!!!

Alll dog training is geared to the big dogs it takes time to bust it down to work with the little ones.

the majority of my time is taken up by spinning things down to work for the little ones.

I keep hoping that Emma Parsons will take my suggestion and write a small dog aggression book as I asked her.

That said many have thought it cute that they have a fiesty little dog and have allowed them to get away with to much.
It was only been in the last few years that even with the little guys it no longer ok to have them fiesty and not follow rules. So there needs to be a catch up in this area.

JL

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2743065)

There it is fast and lazy and causing pain.

No reason that dogs needs to be outside unattended to get out. Where are the owners. Where is boundry training.
Why is it the dog wants to get out. It is Bored.
Why not set up the are to give the dog some mental stimulation... wait that be work on Ceasers part. Hide food. by kongs, make puzzles.

Wham bam zap you man is not training that is abuse.
That is not training and not acceptable.

JL

Originally Posted by Britster (Post 2743035)

I was kidding and being sarcastic because there are so many debates and different ways to train dogs. That's why I put a funny face with a tongue next to my post because I was really kidding. I don't think I would be in this thread debating if I hated training. I get great enjoyment out of training my dog, actually.

Originally Posted by Britster (Post 2743075)

I totally agree with you on the bolded parts. But, sometimes dogs simply want to get out... also, I know the Kongs, Puzzles, etc, do not keep Jackson busy at all. He won't play with them... he prefers to sleep while I'm gone. And I've watched him on camera once so I know that's all he does, even when I left him a Kong, etc.

However, I disagree about having to watch the dog all the time outside in a fenced in yard. Come on. Dogs enjoy being outside, that's the point of having a fenced in yard. We have a large fenced in yard over at my dad's house and they have two dogs and I bring my one over, and we let them out the door when they have to go potty, etc, and we stay in the house. Every dog owner I know does that. That's not necessarily "lazy"... it's just what you do.

And they did go out with the dog so he wouldn't jump the fence. That's why they called Cesar because they didn't want to have to stand out there all the time, they wanted to feel safe with him in his own backyard.

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2743090)

Well here we disagree if you have a fence jumper then you need to watch.
If a dog wants out of an area. Why? If not bored then what the female down the raod is in heat. the kid walking by waves a treat in its face and over the dog goes. WHY?
Find out why and fix the way. If yo can not figure out why or take the time to find out why that is lazy.
Zapping a dog to stay in a yard does not make it feel safe it makes it feel afraid to try to get out. It gives it limits but it done by fear.

Yes I have a dog that sleeps all day to in a very large kennel as she can not settle do to anxiety when left free to roam the house.
In her very large kennel she can not jump of, she has room to play if she chooses to or eat or sleep but when left to run she will pull things apart do to her anxiety. This girl is a 10 pounder and she can climb over things like they are nothing with a lib she settles down. In a kennel she blocked from seeing the nieghbours dog at the window trying to pick a fight or the gopher that must be chased or the person she fears walking by she must go kill. She is calm and resting.

JL

Originally Posted by ARCHIE (Post 2743089)

What I wanted to say is that is so incredibally sad.

The way I train once you get the hang of it is fun and it can be done in the comerical breaks of an hours TV shows.

DID I say it is fun.
Once we and I include me cross over from the make them to ask them and wait and let them sort it out. There is nothing like the light bulb that goes off in thier heads and wow they are off.

They end up glowing and waiting for the time ti train it so fun and they know they are a partner in learning not the one that must follow.

Nothing like engaging the brain and seeing it work wonders.

It hurts to watch a dogs eyes turn off and stop that glow when trained in the manner that ceaser trains.

Once crushed that soul that will to try is very hard to heal.

JL


Obviously your a trainer, however, you can't knock Ceaser for his ways.
I have watched his show for over a year and totally respect him for his
way's in not only saving dog's but training them to be happy dog's as well.
I have never seen the light taken out of any dog that he has trained.
Perhaps the light was not there in the first place because they did not
know how to be a dog due to thier owner's lack of training in the first place.
I have seen dog's so vicious they would have been PTS if it had not
been for Ceaser. Give the man his due. Look at his dog's, no one looks
unhappy to me. He does get dog's with crushed souls as you have put
it and it is he who brings life back into them.
To have fun while training is important yes but when you have a vicious
dog you can't have fun in training it until it totaly respects you as it's
trainer. I have never seen him injure a dog or it's spirit's.
If you have never had an aggressive dog and only a little lap dog that
only gives you kisses then you have not a clue what it can be like to
have an aggressive dog. If it means saving a dog's life then I would bite
it myself it that's what it took to bring it back.
Everyone will have his or her own views on any subject but when you
actually see dog's being saved and rehabilitated you can't knock the
trainer for his way of training. You may have a different way but that
does not mean Ceasar's way is wrong.

P.S. You can't train a vicious dog during a commercial break!
IMO

Originally Posted by ARCHIE (Post 2743089)

P.S. You can't train a vicious dog during a commercial break!
IMO

Originally Posted by Britster (Post 2743102)

Wait, are you saying that you have a dog that sleeps all day in a kennel, and stays in that kennel to eat, play, etc? If that's what you're saying, I'm sorry, but that's terrible. A dog cannot be kept in a kennel. I don't care how anxious or fearful she is, you have to get her to experience the world and get over that fear. Just like a depressed person who stays in their house all day... it makes them worse. That is NO life for a dog and if I'm understanding you correctly and that is what you're doing to a dog, that is way worse than what you're claiming Cesar apparently does to his dogs. If you're a trainer, why would you not train her to NOT pick a fight with the neighbors dog or a gopher? You're going to keep her secluded from the world instead?!

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2743111)

No not saying that at all.... she running around here right now free as a bird but when I leave to go anywhere she is kenneled. When she goes outside to play soccer or fetch or just sniff she is with me.

More times than not free to go where she wants as she got an amazing recall.
But when left unattended she is kenneled in a manner that allows her a ton of freedom to move and to play just not jump out and panic.

JL

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2743107)

Actually what you seeing is a cooking show for dogs. It takes more then one day to do what he does it is edited down to a 1/2 hour show that makes it look simple and easy.


JL

Originally Posted by ch774 (Post 2743112)

I love him and have tried some of his methods and they have worked. I get encouraged by his love for animals. I watch him everyday.



Love Him and his work

Cheryl

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2743107)

Actually what you seeing is a cooking show for dogs. It takes more then one day to do what he does it is edited down to a 1/2 hour show that makes it look simple and easy.

As for working and living with an aggressive dog how does 7 years of living with an aggressive dog work for you.
I have one that is as bad if not worse then many Ceaser deals with as it is genetic based and chemially made worse aggression and can not be worked in the manner at all that Ceaser does it as she would be dead.

7 Years or hard work with a dog that should have been put down and that methods just like ceasers made far worse.
When I speak training it is from the point of view of keeping a very aggressive fearful anixety dog alive and proventing what happened to her happen to another.
Oh and before you come back and go well it is only one there are others I have helped over the years as well.
I play with the ones that will bite... 5 time biter before the age of a year in one dog. So please do not try and say i do not have a clue.

JL

Originally Posted by Britster (Post 2743118)

I think most people know and understand that they can't show everything in a 1 hour long show. Every television show is edited. Cesar states many, many times that the dog will not be rehabilitated if the owner does not continue to work with the dog. He never claims to be like magic and change the dog within a matter of 10 minutes! He just shows them how it can be done, and gives them tips, and they always usually show a home video from months after Cesar was at their house and updates on how the dogs are currently doing and what the owners have been doing.

Originally Posted by YorkieMother (Post 2743121)

i am glad you like him. Want to learn more from him. Turn the volume down.

Watch the dogs. count the lip licks, head turns, eye blinks, yanws, shake offs.. as in like a dog shaking off water. Once you have a total have a look at Turid Rugrass book On talking terms with dogs and find out what those mean.

Then come back and tell us all what you have learned. Should be that Ceasers got thos dogs under so much sttress that they are pleading for him to stop. There is very little that the dog is learning to do but to give up and give in.

JL

Originally Posted by ARCHIE (Post 2743123)

Obviously you have a thing for Ceaser and think only your methods
are the correct methods. If it works for you great but Ceaser is Ceaser
and I have total respect for him because I know his methods work.
I have been using them on a Yorkie for 2yrs and know for a fact, if
followed daily, yes they do work.
Good luck to you in your training, however, I must say I don't think
it professional of you to knock another trainer's methods especially
when he is world known for his accomplishments and has saved
countless dog's from death.
Done on this subject.

Originally Posted by ARCHIE (Post 2743123)

Obviously you have a thing for Ceaser and think only your methods
are the correct methods. If it works for you great but Ceaser is Ceaser
and I have total respect for him because I know his methods work.
I have been using them on a Yorkie for 2yrs and know for a fact, if
followed daily, yes they do work.
Good luck to you in your training, however, I must say I don't think
it professional of you to knock another trainer's methods especially
when he is world known for his accomplishments and has saved
countless dog's from death.
Done on this subject.

Originally Posted by Britster (Post 2743128)

Oh, God. This is so ridiculous. Yes, this is a debate thread, you can say whatever the hell you want, but why you have to be like this is beyond me. Some people are going to like Cesar, and there is nothing you can do about it. Why on earth you would tell someone who comes into this thread to watch the show with the volume turned down? This is a debate thread, not a total put down thread.

Originally Posted by ARCHIE (Post 2743123)

Obviously you have a thing for Ceaser and think only your methods
are the correct methods. If it works for you great but Ceaser is Ceaser
and I have total respect for him because I know his methods work.
I have been using them on a Yorkie for 2yrs and know for a fact, if
followed daily, yes they do work.
Good luck to you in your training, however, I must say I don't think
it professional of you to knock another trainer's methods especially
when he is world known for his accomplishments and has saved
countless dog's from death.
Done on this subject.