I missed that episode, sounds great, and that's exactly what he does with the dogs, he redirects their thinking, to the calm submissive state, and they can handle small doses of anxiety. For the lady, it sounds like the thought of shrimp could put her into a more relaxed or better frame of mind. I'm simply amazed at so many of these training shows have episodes of people who no longer can socialize with other people because dogs rule their lives. Instead of enhancing their lives, the dog has become their life.

Of course the dog wanted Cesar to let go of the leash. I don't think the dog was lunging because he couldn't breath tho. i think he was lunging because Cesar took control and wouldn't give in to the dog. I didn't see the whole episode but i can imagine that the owners gave in to the dog all the time and he always got his way, so when Cesar wouldn't let go the dog flipped out. There was no way Cesar could have let go of the leash at that point. He would have endangered his crew, the family, and the other dog. To many bad things could have happened if he dropped the leash. Instead Cesar let the dog flip out on him so that no one else would get hurt. I really don't think there was any thing else he could have done. if he gave the dog some more slack it would have bit him, so that was not an option. Cesar rode it out and waited for the dog to tire out, and as soon as he saw the dog give a little, he grabbed the scruff and put the dog on the ground. I've been in similar situations and i would have done the same thing. If the dog is trying to bite me, i'm not gonna let him. I'm going to do whatever it takes to prevent it.

Again, didn't see the whole episode but i'm pretty sure Cesar didn't try the tap again LOL

More support and agreement. The Husky was obviously not choking or in any distress. He was pissed that Cesar "invaded his space" and interrupted his intimidation of the other dog and was going to eat Cesar's face. It is amazing how quickly Cesar's calm response diffused the situation.

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. As I said, I think the dog wanted Cesar to give him some slack on the leash, in and of itself. Not to get slack so he could bite Cesar, just to get free. How could the dog NOT be choking? He is in a choke hold! I'm not saying the dog was on the verge of death, but of course the dog was trying to get air.

It's a matter of common sense that there would be other people ready to step in to handle the situation if something happened. To NOT have that would be really stupid. What if the leash broke?

i do agree that the dog was choking itself but there was nothing Cesar could have done at that point. If he gave the dog more slack he would have been bitten. The dog was in such a crazed state that even with slack on the leash he still would have been freaking out. I do think there are other people on hand in case of emergencies but i don't think that is a situation Cesar wants to create. He won't drop the leash so the dog can run off in his frenzied state to bite some one else. Maybe if the dog was in a fenced in yard he might have done so but he can't risk public safety on the streets. we don't know if there were neighbors or anybody not involved with the show there watching. There's only so much his crew can do. Plus Cesar doesn't want them to be bitten either.

I understand how you could see the situation differently, truly I can but please watch the video one more time.

At no time did Cesar tug on the leash or deprive the dog of oxygen. He was, however holding the leash in such a way that the dog couldn't rip his face off :D. When the dog lunged or came up on his two hind feet, he took up slack out of the leash so that the dog could not reach him. Cesar had complete control of the leash at all times and the amount of pressure on the leash was directly related to the amount of aggression in the dog. AND when the Husky put all four feet down on the ground the tension on the leash was released. I didn't see one point in the entire event where the Husky was lacking oxygen. He was definately way too active and aggressive to be in distress.

If you will note, too, Cesar made every attempt to continue walking, more or less ignoring the dogs aggressive temper tantrum (except for handling the leash in such a way that he wouldn't get hurt).

I agree! The dog didnt look in distress to me either

Maybe it's splitting hairs. The dog was opening and closing its mouth in such a way that it was clearly trying to gasp. Imagine if you yourself were in that situation - someone you don't know has a firm tie around your jugular while you are walking and out of nowhere you feel a "tap" on your butt. You would naturally whirl around, and then if this stranger pulls back on your jugular, it's going to pull tight when you fall back to the ground. Would this not panic you and make you start scrabbling at the stranger to get off your neck? You still don't know what potential threat made contact with your rear.

This is why you shouldn't pull a dog away from a fight by its collar. Almost any dog worth its salt will automatically redirect a bite at this new, unfriendly restraint, in this case your hand.

I guess we have different interpretations, and I have not covered "red rocket" body language, so I'm not going to stake my life on my understanding. As yes, Cesar maintained his composure. But I don't think it should be shrugged off that there was no need to start the dog off in a high pressure situation. The owners in the clip said this dog had shown a lot of aggression towards other dogs before (Cesar said it was actually a wish to dominate), but obviously, that dog was going to be under a lot of pressure.

I'm sure hindsite made Cesar realize it was the wrong move. However IMO the way the dog turned on Cesfar is just an indication of the dogs state of mind. He had already hit red zone.

There was no way he could release the dog, he had to protect all the other people, his crew, the lady that was there with the other dog, plus the other dog.

He did what he had to do. Good or bad, he had to hold on to the dog and hold it at arms length until it stopped attacking.

To me it was just a mistake in judgement.. And I sure every trainer has done that at least once. He is human.

It is still way to new to me and I have not had enough time to get a good look at it to make any clear thoughts on it but like to de more research around it.
What we did with my girl was linited to when she took a breath, the item that concerned her left her sight. As long as they did not push into her fear zone and she stayed calm I was ok with it. Once she stiffened or held her breath I made them back off. Still not comfortable with her working inside that fear zone as under any stress as she crashs all to fast.

JL

Ok running short on time, i know you like to read and learn so try this bok oh and get it from Amazon ... no not an order just cheaper there it can be expensive.

Dogs, a new understanding of Canine Origin, behaviour and evolution.
By Raymond and Lorna Coppinger.

In short dogs in the wold do not pack up they runs in sinlges, maybe twos and usually with an adult femle and current pups.

They can hunt rodents and small game but mostly they scavenge out of dumps and garbage cans.

As to wolves and dogs not rolling.. usually the one that looks to have been rolled has rolled itself. If a wolf rolled or faught with the leader he be fighting with dad and the main food getter and therefore putting himself at risk for starving.

Now as to dogs most calming singals and rolling be one is done more by the confident dog to tell the one that is afraid that he is not going to hurt it.

JL

Muzzle, head harness, not getting so close to the other dog in the first place to cause that explosion woul have meet that Ceaser would not ahve been in over his head and got bite. Goal in training an aggresive dog is not to trigger a reaction and to teach it something else instead. Not set it off and choke the living day lights out of it and then stand lea n over it which is rude to a dog , when it is in full shut down.

JL

Breath heavy, mouthing, shut down eyes, blinking,
total lack of the abiltiy to pull focus. That dogs was not in its own head.
That body was not limp cause he was sudmitting that body was limp cause hewas not inside anymore. That is a crushed soul.


JL

Oh, please.

Unfortunately I have to stop here as I have my dog to deal with. Her health was taken a turn back to the worse and she loosing weight and she decided that just maybe it is time again to attempt a crash and burn.
So all eyes and hands are on deck to see if we can pull her through.
I am not so worried about the physical, it is the mental stuff and the lack of focus and knowing where she is that makes her a concern.
So muzzle ready and vet on stand by and here we go.
Last time she pulled this it was three weeks to get her back inside her head and thinking and going forward.
As I said somewhere in these last few days or I should have this is not a game for me. This is life and death for one little girl. one wrong move and she checks out and there is the great possibility she does not check back in.
Then we loose her for good. 7 years and no quick fixes and believe you me if there was I have done it and found it. No stone unturned.
I have looked and worked and gave up a great deal just to find one thing that one thing that makes her whole.
I give anything for this wee girl, my wee girl to be whole. She never will be. Poor breeding ( incredibally bad genetics), poor soicalization, rough start with a differnt owner and then me pulling tbe domanint crap on her,..... poor dear is lucky she even alive. No she was luck she got a vet that could help and was willing to teach and guide and a Mum that will not give up on her.
This wee girl my wee girl will still try to make it to the bathroom to have an accident and even into the shower all on her own. Without being taught. She is blind, confused and not all that happy right now. Man can we back up to Sunday when we thought we had this fixed.
MY child, my furry girl that taught me all about boucing back, over coming and trying till you can not and then coming back and trying again needs her Mum.

So consider it a pause will talk more latter..

JL

Good luck with your doggie. I hope she feels better soon.

I do not believe the dog was choking, the collar was positioned right under his chin where Cesar always puts them. If you press on your own neck under the chin you will see that it does not choke you.

Cesar could not have let that leash loose, what if the dog had attacked someone else. dYes thers might have caught him, but when a large dog is attacking someone is going to get hurt. he chose to take the fbiting himself. After all what kind of a handler would let go of the dog and leave someone else to catch him.

If he had attacked a bystander, that would have been one major lawsuit. It is ludicrous to even suggest that he should have let the dog go.

Armchair quarterbacks can always play a better game than the man on the field.

I think under the circumstances he did a good job of controlling the dog and no one got hurt. I imagine the standing over hijm when he was down was to prevent another episode. You have to realize he too was exhausted.

How would you have controlled him?

I don't know how to discuss this topic with you because I feel like you ignore the main point of what I'm trying say, and sometimes you get very hostile. It seems like you take criticism of Cesar personally.

So sorry to hear of your little girls healtrh problems. I hope all goes well with her and if that is not meant to be then may the Lord comfort you through your suffering.

i think we can all say what we would have done in the situation, or how is should have been handled, what should have been done, and what shouldn't have been done until the cows come home. Unfortunately we were not there, we did not see the whole footage of what happened. Clearly the dog has aggression/dominance/insecurity/what-have-you issues. we don't know if they had any other training (they can say whatever they want on tv), and we don't know the whole background on the dog. There is a lot we don't know.

So i think we all need to agree to disagree on how we view that particular situation.

We all like to discuss Cesar because he is on TV (as is victoria). Its easy to pick him apart because we can actually see what he is doing, good or bad, right or wrong. When dogs react he only has a second to decide what he wants to do about it.

Its great to read books and learn theory, but until you are actually doing it, and are in that situation you can't really say what you would do exactly. I'm all for learning. I have many animal behavior books (a lot are dog books) and took courses in college while i was getting my bio degree. Reading is great but i think behavior and training is something you need to actually DO to get a good handle on it.

Are you talking to me? If so I'm not sure exactly what main point you are trying to make. You see abuse, I do not. You feel he should have let the dog go, I can see why he would not take that risk. Some one, including the huskey could have gotten seriously injured. You think he should have anticipated the dogs reaction, I see a human making a mistake in judgement.

And it appears that only two of you view it as kicking hitting and choking the dog, the rest of us do not.

It's all just a matter of opinion.

As for Yorkiemother, she has made some terrible serious accusations against the Cesar, based on some face book chat room gossip. I will defend Cesar on that for all of the reasons that have been previously stated. And if they have proof then it is a crime not to report this animal abuse to the athorities.

If she does not have first hand knowledge of the abuse, than it is nothing more than gossip. If anyone does have first hand knowledge and they have not reported it than they are just as guilty as esar.

YorkieMother - I'm sorry to hear your little girl is having problems and is not getting better. she will be in my thoughts. While we all may not agree on methods, none of us like to see a dog in pain, mental or physical. I hope your girl pulls through.

Very true. Things are always much clearer in theory than in practice. Lifes experience will teach you that nothing ever works out like they said in the textbooks.

If all of these other experts have such good methods then let them come on TV and show us theirs.

i think its so easy for everyone to pick on Cesar's methods because he IS on tv. It would be great if there were more shows like his so we can see other methods of training. All the behaviorists that are mentioned in this thread would be picked apart too if they had their own shows.

My point is that you are telling me that I've said things I haven't said, that you are being rude, and I'm not sure why. I can't discuss a topic with someone who doesn't read what I write and is appears to be trying to score bitch points. If fifty more people came on and said "I agree with Quicksilver 100%", would that make me more right? If not, why does it matter if it's just "us two", like we are some kind of team? YorkieMother and I don't agree on many other things, we are two individuals.

With all due respect then, why isn't VS the topic of this kind of debate? I know she's smaller than Cesar, but wouldn't you agree her methods are less controversial?

I agree, her methods are less controversial then Cesars. Cesar is big and out there, in your face. he doesn't use treats to get the dogs to do what he wants. He gets the dogs to behave in a home because that is what they are suppose to do. He turns them back into dogs instead of what the owner or past experiences have created.

His show was first right? Victoria came about after him so i think he's still more popular and more talked about then she is. He has a few books out there as well. i'm not sure if she does.

I don't agree with some of what victoria does, just like i don't agree with some of what Cesar does.

...i've totally lost track of what i was saying here. i was all over the place. i'm distracted by this lion show on ABC. sorry LOL

Where did I say that you said something that you did not say? I reply to the post, the quote is there to show what you said.

I have not been rude to anyone. I just debate what is being said.

Out of everyone that saw the video, you two are the only ones that saw choking. It is not my fault that others, saw it differently. It's all a matter of opinion and your opinion is in the minority.

Mercury, remember, this is the Cesar Debate Thread, not the VS debate thread. I don't know anything about VS, but I am sure that some of her techniques are successful. I want to sincerely thank you for starting this thread, for the most part this has been a debate and/or sharing of information without trying to cram ideas down each other's throats.

Back to the Husky.... my speakers don't work so I am at a huge disadvantage. I have watched that short clip no less than a dozen times and each time what I see is a very directed training session. I didn't see Cesar making an error in judgement, I never saw abuse and I believe that he knew exactly what was going to happen, and what the ultimate outcome was going to be BEFORE the cameras started rolling.

As far as the dog choking and gasping for breath, I have pondered this all afternoon. Mercury, have you actually seen an animal that was choking due to a rope being too tight around his neck? I can tell you that an animal that has a rope around his neck and is choking will use his feet to try to bat at the rope, he will sling his head side to side and after a very short time his tounge will be hanging out of the side of his mouth, and he will definately not have enough energy to make lunge at the rope holder.

I truly wish that you could work with a "Cesar" type trainer in person so that you could get the whole picture. The television program only provides the viewer with a very small piece of the puzzle. And because of that it is impossible to piece together what is really happening. Only when you get a clear view of the whole training puzzle, unbiased by the opinions of others will you be able to make a true determination whether or not the methods used are to your liking. Unfortunatnely, reading what others say about an individual serves no real purpose except to prejudice one either in favor of or against that person. If I want to decide if I like Cesar Milan's methods, it would be far better to read his books, to watch him in action, go to his website, etc., and trust your own instincts about his methods rather than read someone else's opinion about him.

And when we've finished with Cesar, let's debate another great trainer -- so we can all learn even more.