Latest "Incident"... Need opinions...

[globemaster]

I don't view you guys as wimpy Yorkie owners at all. Y'all havegiven me so many wonderful ideas. If fear will help (it already has - he no longer squats right in front of me and I've already adopted the idea of movement restriction) I'll use it or any tactic that doesn't hurt him. I WANT him to be uncomfortable when he goes inside.

As for bell training... I know nothing about it, but would love to know what to read or where to go. I'm open to any ideas at this point, but I think it's all pointless without my girlfrend's help...

Originally Posted by Erin

Every 3 hours may not be enough. I said that if my dogs don't *ask* to go out and they haven't been out in 2-3 hours I will send them out, even if it means waking them up. They often ask to go out much more often than that. It's 11:15 and they have been out at 7:30, 9:45 (after a nap) and are now asking to go out again at 11:15...

Get a cleaner (I like simple solution, i think it smells better) and clean up the carpets and furniture. Confine or monitor him at all times, taking many potty breaks. Teach him to ring a bell when he needs to go outside. If you do this consistently for a few months, he will figure it out. DO NOT rub his nose in it!

By the way, marking outside does not mean you have to allow marking inside. Loki was neutered at 6 months, before he even learned to lift his leg. He is house trained but he still marks when we go on walks outside. He just pees twice in every yard. Actually, a walk is a good way to housetrain because not only will he pee until he is completely empty, but he will be tired and take a nap for a while so don't have to watch him so closely. As soon as he wakes up, go back outside. If you fall into a pattern like this you will learn when he needs to go. Also, you don't mention if pooping is an issue but if he is fed on a schedule he will poop on a schedule which is very helpful too.

I also agree that you should hire a dog walker. That way you can reinforce training during the day when you are not there and give him a potty break. He will also be a lot less hyper in the evenings if he gets a good walk mid-day.

Finally, you are not going to win the argument of rubbing his face in it - not because we are a bunch of wimpy Yorkie owners, but because it's scientifically unfounded. You never want your dog to be afraid of you. I know you said you have trained other dogs that way, but those dogs probably would have been trained no matter what methods you used. Yorkies take a lot longer to train, although being 18 months old at least you are talking every 2 hours not every 30 minutes! There is no reason to make the dog hate you when other methods are MORE effective.

By the way, what is the dog's name?

[globemaster]

He is the appropriate size - about 2.5 to 3 pounds. I'm not sure what his exact weight is but he is small and from what she has told me, he's the perfect size. I doubt she's considered the other things, but I'm gonna copy/paste this post and email it to her. It would make things so much easier if shed just have him fixed...

Originally Posted by Erin

P.S. - Beauty has nothing to do with breeding. Sammy is absolutely beautiful. She also doesn't conform to the standard (she is too long, Yorkie bodies should be a square) and she has grade 3 LP's. If your girlfriend didn't understand that sentence, she should not be breeding her dog. Breeding just to sell puppies is wrong. Did you know that often times Yorkies only have 1 or 2 puppies and vet bells and other expenses (like genetic testing, she will have him tested, won't she? oh and a C-SECTION) can far outpace the "profit" from the puppies.

There are the usual problems that come up, like liver shunt or luxating patellas. There are also rarer genetic conditions. Loki has a genetic disorder that requires medicine that costs $130 A MONTH. For the rest of his life. Is she prepared for something like that?

Also - typically the owner of the FEMALE is the one who sells the puppies. The owner of the male traditionally gets a small stud fee OR pick of the litter. The stud fee *will* be small since your dog is neither a proven "breeder" meaning no one knows what quality his puppies will be, nor is he a champion. You don't have to be on Westminster to be a champion - people who show their dogs attend local competitions to see if their dog measures up to the standard. Someone who has been breeding for a long time can pick out these qualities, but someone who is just a "dog owner" typically cannot. I love both of my dogs and I think they are gorgeous but I would never breed them.

I don't mean to pick on you - SHE is the one pushing this. But you should bring up these issues to see how educated she is on the subject. For example, you say she think she will get $800-$900 a puppy (which she won't, since she owns the male) but what if the female has 2 puppies and needs a C-section, does she know how much that costs? She should call a local vet and ask. More importantly, an owner of a female who will breed to an "unproven" male is likely as uneduated as your girlfriend on the subject, which complicates matters even more. I would strongly encourage you to bring up these issues with her, because perhaps she will re-consider getting your boy neutered which will help tremendously with your problem!

[Erin]

Originally Posted by globemaster

I don't view you guys as wimpy Yorkie owners at all. Y'all havegiven me so many wonderful ideas. If fear will help (it already has - he no longer squats right in front of me and I've already adopted the idea of movement restriction) I'll use it or any tactic that doesn't hurt him. I WANT him to be uncomfortable when he goes inside.

As for bell training... I know nothing about it, but would love to know what to read or where to go. I'm open to any ideas at this point, but I think it's all pointless without my girlfrend's help...

I get it - you want him to be afraid of going inside - HOWEVER please buy that training book recommended "The Loved Dog" You are making a common mistake in thinking that dogs understand things the way humans do. Dogs are extremely smart, but they have limited understanding of cause & effect.

The bottom line is that this dog has not been trained to hold it (many Yorkies are not good at this part, they are tiny!) but he has also not been trained to NOTIFY you that he needs to go out. THIS is something I believe all Yorkies can learn.

Bell training is simple - you can buy a bell (google Poochie Bells or TellBell) or you can just hang a jingle bell from a ribbon and tie it to the door. Before taking him out, take his paw or nose and have him ring the bell. Act all happy and immediately open the door and go outside. After a week or so he will be curious to try it out and he will ring the bell himself. IMMEDIATELY RUN to the door and take him outside. Do this a few times and he'll figure it out. See, he probably tried something like this - walking by the door, circling, barking, etc. and was ignored because it was a subtle signal (walking by the door) or an undesirable one (barking). You need to introduce an acceptable and encourageable signal for him to tell you when he needs to go. When I introduced the bell with Loki (my bladder-problem dog) he went from a few accidents a month to NONE. He understood he needed to pee outside - he just didn't know how to ask to be let out (25 times a day, but hey, whatever works!)

[Erin]

Originally Posted by globemaster

He is the appropriate size - about 2.5 to 3 pounds. I'm not sure what his exact weight is but he is small and from what she has told me, he's the perfect size. I doubt she's considered the other things, but I'm gonna copy/paste this post and email it to her. It would make things so much easier if shed just have him fixed...

True, his *weight* is good, but there is proportion to consider. How long and tall he is are important too. So is head size and shape and his bite (under/over). There is a LOT to consider. Maybe she has done her homework and maybe he is a show-quality dog from show-quality parents (who often only have pet-quality dogs, so that is not a sole indication he is of breeding quality.) I just want you to ask her these questions, that's all.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by globemaster

Ok... Some of this might be too much info, BUT... I need opinions and feel more comfortable at internet distances...

Things have been going well. Its been a month since he's gone inside on my watch, but I travel with my job and am not always around. We've managed to restrict his movement and the praise/punish system has gone well. I haven't been very physical with him with the accidents, but he gets his face rubbed in it for a LONG time when he messes up. Good behavior is always rewarded with treats EVERY time he waits to go outside.

TONIGHT... I was having some... "intimate" time with my girlfriend and we left him out during. At the end of it during pillow talk, he left a nice little puddle on the floor that I heard and I yelled at him. The scene of the crime was about 10 feet from the bed. He ran away, hid and was visibly scared when I found him, so I've obviously impressed upon him the penalty for peeing on the carpet (a minute or two of face rubbing in pee). It happened about 4 hours AFTER he'd been let out last. Was this a jealousy thing or did we wait too long to take him out and he was in pain?

Thanks for the help and sorry about the unnecessary details!

You taught him ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about peeing on the floor. he reads you body language and can sense your anger so he runs and hides.

You have taught him to fear you but he still does not know that he is supposed to ask to go outside.

he methods that you are using are failing to convey the message to him.

Try something different and practice patience.

Try using a bell or some other touch method so he knows that when he does "whatever" you will let him out. and stop rubbing his face in it. that doesn't work.

[QuickSilver]

I think it's great that your gf is taking good care of her dog's physical health and appearance. I think it's even better that you are on here doing more research on his training.

Since he is not your dog, I hope you can convince your gf to think about some of these other things. I'm sure she loves her little buddy, and it is not easy to hear criticism about how you care for your animals. It would be great if you can think of an effective approach here, especially since you mentioned that she is digging her heels in.

Maybe lure her into YT with the grooming section - people sell some really cute top knot bows and little boy outfits here. Then she'll absorb all this other info without even realizing it.

[globemaster]

Thank you so much. I'm gonna cut/paste this to her too. One question though... We can't see the door for where we will normally be located. If I still want to restrict his movement will it work to place the bell where he's in our line of sight or does it have to be at the door for him to get it?

Originally Posted by Erin

I get it - you want him to be afraid of going inside - HOWEVER please buy that training book recommended "The Loved Dog" You are making a common mistake in thinking that dogs understand things the way humans do. Dogs are extremely smart, but they have limited understanding of cause & effect.

The bottom line is that this dog has not been trained to hold it (many Yorkies are not good at this part, they are tiny!) but he has also not been trained to NOTIFY you that he needs to go out. THIS is something I believe all Yorkies can learn.

Bell training is simple - you can buy a bell (google Poochie Bells or TellBell) or you can just hang a jingle bell from a ribbon and tie it to the door. Before taking him out, take his paw or nose and have him ring the bell. Act all happy and immediately open the door and go outside. After a week or so he will be curious to try it out and he will ring the bell himself. IMMEDIATELY RUN to the door and take him outside. Do this a few times and he'll figure it out. See, he probably tried something like this - walking by the door, circling, barking, etc. and was ignored because it was a subtle signal (walking by the door) or an undesirable one (barking). You need to introduce an acceptable and encourageable signal for him to tell you when he needs to go. When I introduced the bell with Loki (my bladder-problem dog) he went from a few accidents a month to NONE. He understood he needed to pee outside - he just didn't know how to ask to be let out (25 times a day, but hey, whatever works!)

[globemaster]

Originally Posted by Erin

True, his *weight* is good, but there is proportion to consider. How long and tall he is are important too. So is head size and shape and his bite (under/over). There is a LOT to consider. Maybe she has done her homework and maybe he is a show-quality dog from show-quality parents (who often only have pet-quality dogs, so that is not a sole indication he is of breeding quality.) I just want you to ask her these questions, that's all.

I'd love to ask her any questions about it. I'm against it but she's dead set on it to spread his genes. If she's doing it for profit then I'd PAY her $1,000 not to AND I pay for his immediate neutering.

[Erin]

He needs to associate the bell with going outside. If you have stairs that you have to go down or something to go outside, place it at the top of the stairs. Otherwise, yes I would place it at the door - just make sure you can HEAR it. We have a 2 story townhouse and I can hear the bell all the way upstairs in my bathroom. Obviously, if you are confining him he can't ring it - but put it by the door that you take him out, if that is a place he will have access to eventually. Get him used to ringing it now. You can teach him the word "bell" and after a week or so you can place him in front of the door and say "bell" and encourage him to ring it himself. If he does, then you can be pretty sure he's got it!

Also, there will be a point where he will be ringing the bell for everything. Loki is ringing the bell right now because I just put my shoes on and he knows we are going in the car and he wants to go NOW. But, the way to discourage that is to ONLY take him outside when he rings the bell. The bell doesn't mean "Oh, do you want water/food/attention?" It means POTTY. So even if he was just out and now he is ringing the bell for water, take him outside FIRST and then wait a few minutes to get whatever else he needs. The ONLY thing he gets when he rings the bell is a trip outside!

[globemaster]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I think it's great that your gf is taking good care of her dog's physical health and appearance. I think it's even better that you are on here doing more research on his training.

Since he is not your dog, I hope you can convince your gf to think about some of these other things. I'm sure she loves her little buddy, and it is not easy to hear criticism about how you care for your animals. It would be great if you can think of an effective approach here, especially since you mentioned that she is digging her heels in.

Maybe lure her into YT with the grooming section - people sell some really cute top knot bows and little boy outfits here. Then she'll absorb all this other info without even realizing it.

I like it... She's always looking for a new outfit.

I'm wanting to love this dog too, but it's so hard when my standard is that of my female English Setters that were perfect in my eyes. I just want the little guy to learn to hold it better and my girlfriend to be more considerate of both me and the dog.

[Erin]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

You taught him ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about peeing on the floor. he reads you body language and can sense your anger so he runs and hides.

You have taught him to fear you but he still does not know that he is supposed to ask to go outside.

he methods that you are using are failing to convey the message to him.

Try something different and practice patience.

Try using a bell or some other touch method so he knows that when he does "whatever" you will let him out. and stop rubbing his face in it. that doesn't work.

LOL! Jeanie and I agree on something! That rarely happens!!

Seriously, TRY the water trick. Put water on the floor/carpet and act like he did it. I guarantee he will run and hide. I just want you to understand he is not making the association you think he is. It's a COMMON misunderstanding and he's not even your dog so it's not like you two can read each other very well yet. That will come with time. Loki and I did 2 years of obedience and sometimes I know what he's thinking (and he knows what I'm thinking) just with a *look*

[luvfla]

How long have you & your girlfriend been together? From what I'm reading it looks like less than 2 months. Is that right?

[globemaster]

Originally Posted by luvfla

How long have you & your girlfriend been together? From what I'm reading it looks like less than 2 months. Is that right?

We've been together for almost 7 months now. Over the last 2 months I've started looking at her as wife material as she's eliminated any of my issues (getting rid of her filthy cat and quitting smoking - i realize I'm not perfect). The only issue left is the dog's housebreaking habits and I refuse to believe he can't be trained. Between the dog and cat they've desroyed her appartment's carpet (which I understand I will probably be paying for one day) and most of her furniture. I can't allow her dog at my house 2 hours away because I know he'll destroy it and I also have a roommate who essentially pays my mortgage...

[luvfla]

I'm am trying hard to bite my tongue BUT...first 6 months is too early to know if someone is marriage material & second, it sounds like you have spent the majority of that time trying to CHANGE her. Is see control issues all over your posts.

[QuickSilver]

I respectfully disagree. At a certain age, if you AREN'T thinking marriage after six months, it's probably time to move on. And if I met an otherwise wonderful guy who had an unneutered dog he was planning to breed and hadn't potty trained, I'd be working on that too!