New USDA breeding regulations

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

[/B]

Well.....
#1) Outlaw selling of puppies/kittens in pet stores....THAT is where the puppy mills sell their dogs! To shut down a puppy mill, you can not dirve responsible breeders out of business....hit the puppy mills in the pocket, and close down where THEY sell the majority of their pets. Also, I know personally people I used to work with that do NOTHING but sell to pet stores....at 6-8 weeks...totally under the radar, and they are making a LOT more money than I do!!!....they are going to keep flopping along, doing just fine....
2) Outlaw puppies (live animals) being sold at flea markets. This is disgraceful and hundreds of irresponsible breeders hawk their pups in flea markets....sick, dying, ill bred puppies. These stupid regulations will do NOTHING to stop this!
3) EDUCATE the public....spend all the money these animal activists line their pockets with, with flooding the market with info about what kind of dogs they are getting and what kind of people they are support when they buy ill bred babies, sold in shopping center parking lots, garage sales, flea markets, pet stores, etc.... Society MUST understand there are people that will REFUSE to get the message and will continue to support CHEAP dogs....I am sorry, but who is the bigger fool???? The fool or the fool that follows the fool????? You just can not legislate intelligence or common sense and the buying of cheap dogs will continue, and people will squeal like a pig under a gate when the pup dies on them, "cant imagine what in the world happened or what I did wrong".....Make it illegal and then enforce it, to sell live animals in open markets, garage sales, pet stores, etc. Go after the CROOKS that sell dogs on the internet and scam people, NOT honest people that sell dogs and do so honestly and stand by their dogs. Just because a person does not think it is the proper thing to do to sell a puppy off a website, if the breeder is not a crook and the puppy is exactly what the breeder claims it is, and she stands by her pup, and is responsive to the buyer, leave THESE people the heck alone! They are NOT hurting a single soul....go after the crooks, not the honest people, just because some people dont like the idea of selling pups unseen....this is perposterous(sp?)!!! This is where they couyld start, if they REALLY wanted to be effective against puppy mills....but it aint going to happen.
These people CLAIM they are trying to shut down puppy mills by stopping the buying of puppies on line or site unseen. That is stupid. If you want to go after crooks that do this, and have buyers that are damaged because they bought a puppy off a web site, PUT TEETH INTO LAWS THAT PUNISH THOSE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE. Designate someplace, say, the USDA, duh!!! where a person that has been scammed, has been sold a puppy that was sick or died immediately after the person bought the dog, cases of switch and bait, etc, etc, etc and let the USDA go after the CROOKS, making sure the people that were scammed or stolen from are compensated, and the "breeder" that sold them the puppy is raked over the coals. All these regulations have 2 purposes...generating revenue and to eventually make breeding all animals illegal.

First of all a commercial breeder isn't necessarily a puppy mill. A puppy mill is where conditions don't even meet state laws. Outlawing dogs to be sold at pet stores would do nothing to help with the problem, right now 80% of dogs are not covered with any type of regulations because they are sold directly over the internet. At least dogs sold at pet stores have had to have some type of regulations and a minimum standard of living. State law dictates the age of pups to be sold, while I don't agree with it either many here would ague it's fine.

I agree with you on flea markets, but I'm sure many would fight that too because "this is America and people should be allowed to do want they want."

I try and educate the public at how to select a responsible breeder, but visiting the home is something I believe in. If you don't think someone is responsible/safe enough to come to your home, why sell them an innocent puppy?


You seem to think we need more teeth in the laws, but do you understand that there are no laws that cover breeders who sell directly to public?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by gemy

And not to put too fine a point on it, APHIS should not have unlimited definition authority on what is a "breeding female". Where are the appeal procedures? Where are the explanations of how they define a breeding female? So they can make what-ever ruling they wish, without public oversight and or input into challenges for their definition? Balderdash I say!

Ellie we can't convert a whole home. It is impractical to say the least. Not to mention cost prohibitive!

What makes you think APHIS has "unlimited definition authority" I'll bet a vet can give a waiver, but I wouldn't just take the breeders word for it and I hope APHIS doesn't either. Again, nothing says that you have to covert a whole home, but if the animals have access to the whole home, shouldn't it be safe?

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

What makes you think APHIS has "unlimited definition authority" I'll bet a vet can give a waiver, but I wouldn't just take the breeders word for it and I hope APHIS doesn't either. Again, nothing says that you have to covert a whole home, but if the animals have access to the whole home, shouldn't it be safe?

Show me the regulations covering appeal procedures, and where-in are the regulations that a vet can give a waiver?

Safe is per AWA or USDA kennel licensing requirements. ie; all the home must be able to be sanitized for example. So do you sanitize your home from top to bottom as a pet owner?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by gemy

Show me the regulations covering appeal procedures, and where-in are the regulations that a vet can give a waiver?

Safe is per AWA or USDA kennel licensing requirements. ie; all the home must be able to be sanitized for example. So do you sanitize your home from top to bottom as a pet owner?

Do you have a copy of the actual regulations? I don't. I said I was guessing on that, they can give a waiver on rabies vaccine, so I'm guessing they can give a waiver on whether a dog can be safely spayed. How would the APHIS know otherwise? Let's not panic until we know for sure. You talk about having your home sanitized, I think it's probably important that the primary area the dogs are in can be sanitized, what if there was an outbreak of parvo? Again, we're talking of someone who has more than four females and who don't want to sell face to face. Many people have crates for their dogs, xpens, and some even have rooms, all which can be easily sanitized.


If you have any questions, here someone you can email. ace@aphis.usda.gov>. I had nothing to do with this law, I urged breeders to get involved and have a dialogue, but really, it doesn't seem like anyone understands that there's a serious problem. How can people who loved dogs turn a blind eye to their suffering? This will help thousands of dogs who come from kennels with no oversight. The law has passed, is it perfect, no, but what law is? I just would hate to see good dedicated breeders stop breeding because they think this law will effect them so seriously, and that's why I don't want anyone spreading misinformation, including me.


I feel so badly about this, I respect and admire many of you, and I feel like you are all so angry at me.

[gemy]

Ellie May: here is a link that might help with the kenneling requirements.

http://www.pabulletin.com/secure/dat...-2/26_2_rr.pdf

[gemy]

WE spoke out early. We beat the drums, we provided links, and opinions about the impact this "law" would make.

I have no confidence that this law, will do one whit to bad breeders who happen to sell over the internet.

How will APHIS police this? Who will bear the cost of policing this if even that is possible.

I will look for the link to the actual regulations again.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by gemy

WE spoke out early. We beat the drums, we provided links, and opinions about the impact this "law" would make.

I have no confidence that this law, will do one whit to bad breeders who happen to sell over the internet.

How will APHIS police this? Who will bear the cost of policing this if even that is possible.

I will look for the link to the actual regulations again.

You spoke out about what you thought the law would do, not about how to make a law that would help cover those dogs who aren't covered. No one came up with any suggestions for that. The Pdf, I linked covers one of your questions.

Q: How will USDA identify breeders who may need
to be regulated?
A: APHIS will use various methods to access publicly available
information to identify and inform those
individuals who may need an AWA commercial
breeding license. These methods include evaluating
customer complaints against breeders and Internet
retailers, as well as reviewing the marketing and
promotional materials of breeders and Internet retailers.
In addition, we will review public information available
online to identify sellers that potentially meet the
definition of commercial breeder in the AWA. By
viewing publicly available information, APHIS can
educate individuals about the AWA, and if needed,
assist them with obtaining licenses. This will ensure
that all animals that should be covered by the AWA will
receive humane care and treatment.

[gemy]

Ellie May here is another link to the kenneling housing requirements, you need to scroll down a lot to Section 3

ANIMAL WELFARE

[Ellie May]

So if a breeders chooses to have more than four unspayed females and sells a pup sight unseen they will be required to convert their house or build a kennel.

I am not so concerned with a breeder needing to be registered. I'm concerned what any inspection could put breeders through. I would stop breeding too if I felt there was any risk of confiscation of my babies!

It isn't so easy to just get a spay exemption bc mst vets only see one side of the situation and I doubt there is a waiver available. And rabies exemotions are by state. In some states there is no such thing as a waiver.

Anyway, I will look at that link. So far we know if dogs have access to the whole house then registered breeders cannot have any carpet along with a ton of other stuff. Specifically stated by the AWA all dogs have to wear collars (note it doesn't say harnesses). The AwA is meant for big businesses that don't care. That is a problem. The comfort of a hobby breeder's dogs will be traded for surfaces that can be saniized.

And there are plenty of bybs online that have less than 5 females doing awful things. These were random rules pulled out of nowhere to try to regulate something in the wrong way.

A hobby breeder could either sell no pup sight unseen or have less than 5 females. But what if a good breeder doesn't follow this and has to register? Their dogs are in for a miserable change when they are shoved to a detached kennel.

[Yorkiemom1]

[QUOTE=Nancy1999;4320363]First of all a commercial breeder isn't necessarily a puppy mill. A puppy mill is where conditions don't even meet state laws. Outlawing dogs to be sold at pet stores would do nothing to help with the problem, right now 80% of dogs are not covered with any type of regulations because they are sold directly over the internet. At least dogs sold at pet stores have had to have some type of regulations and a minimum standard of living. State law dictates the age of pups to be sold, while I don't agree with it either many here would ague it's fine.

I agree with you on flea markets, but I'm sure many would fight that too because "this is America and people should be allowed to do want they want."

I try and educate the public at how to select a responsible breeder, but visiting the home is something I believe in. If you don't think someone is responsible/safe enough to come to your home, why sell them an innocent puppy?
You seem to think we need more teeth in the laws, but do you understand that there are no laws that cover breeders who sell directly to public?[/QUOTE
Gosh...somebody needs to tell this to all the irresponsible breeders in States like Florida that have strict Lemon Laws that are designed specifically to help scammed people get compensated by breeders that have sold them sick or dying dogs, or just took their money and never sent them a puppy. ANY breeder that has had to deal with a States Lemon Laws governing the sale of puppies, is very well aware there ARE laws designed to protect buyers.

There are numerous, countless people, organizations, breed clubs, etc that focus on educating people what is essential to making certain they buy from a responsible breeder, to get a healthy puppy. Fortunately, visiting a breeders home is not a guarantee that the babies there are healthy...and fortunately, there are many, many people that have purchased healthy puppies from breeders on their website....there are definately people out there that do not like that, but that is THEIR own hang up...it does not mean those puppies are not healthy. There are hundreds of puppies sold from a breeders home that are sick and die within a month of going home to the new owner....so it is really a moot point. I purchased 3 breeding females from overseas...two out of Bel;gium, and one from Brazile....saw them only from pics and references on the breeder....these dogsa were beautiful and I would have never been able to fly to the owners home overseas to "see where they live"....
As far as people that would fight about laws against selling puppies at flea markets...too bad, so sad! Do NOT punishe me, regulate me, and allow these people to peddle live animals at flea markets! I also am free and American and should be allowed to do what I want....UNTIL I SCAM SOMEONE ELSE....then it becomes a matter for the law and the regulators to deal with....dont make it impossible financially or logistically for ME to breed my 4 mommas, while you let crooks thrive, selling and scamming people in flea markets and off the roadside, or out of parking lots, etc.....

Last but certainly not least, it is good to know now it would appear that buying puppies from pet stores are not such a bad idea.....perhaps even better than buying from a breeder....Do you even KNOW anyone that breeds and sells to pet stores????? I DO!! If you honestly believe that puppies sold at pet stores do not necessarily come from puppy mills, and that they are "at least regulated and have had a minimum standard of living"......OMG!! I know people that breed and sell to pet stores....some are just BYBs that at least keep their dogs inside and feed them once a day. But unfortunately, as we snatch percentages out of the air, fully 75% of the pouppies sold to pet stores come from puppy mills, NOT comercial breeders, and they have NO regulations and they have NO standard of care..... We get on here and talk until we are purple in the face about NOT supporting pet stores that sell puppies/kittens....and for anyone to come here and now imply that most of these dogs have at least a minimum standard of living/care and that they have some type of regulation" is so WRONG! And it certainly does not mean a pet store puppy is a safer risk than a puppy sold over the internet......THAT reasoning sends a dangerous misconception to people that are now going to think pet stores should be their source for their next puppy.

[gemy]

Here is the link to the proposed new regulation http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012...2012-11839.pdf

The APPA which is the American Pet Products Association, does a 2 year survey for their market and their members. They indicate that roughly 40% of the American population gets their dog from family, friend or neighbour. THat seems to be at real odds with 80% of dogs placed in homes are over the internet. 10% from Pet stores, etc.

And commercial breeders ship to pet stores, with small puppies at about 6-7wks old, where-in they are housed at the pet store. There was a report that the number of inspectors for USDA licensed commercial facilities is already stretched thin. Go to the AKC website to find this report mentioned. So truly what oversight does APHIS really think is going on. Relying on a puppy buyer in a pet store, to note ill-health in a puppy is quite frankly not something most folks are knowledgeable enough to do.

If you want to monitor internet sales then monitor internet sales, and search for the high volumne retailers posters what-ever.

wHAT do I think can be done? First get a cohesive state by state Puppy Lemon Law with real teeth in it. Make it mandatory to do one of two things, tattoos or microchip identification. Secure through the microchip company that the breeders name address etc must be listed on the microchip information collection. Have reciprocity agreements across all States on the Puppy Lemon Laws, so it doesn't matter if you sold your dog to Alaska, and you the breeder are in RI.
Make breeders responsible all breeders including commercial breeders, for genetic defects and illnesses in the breed(s) they are pandering to the public. That means financially responsible. Make especially commercial breeders responsible for getting CHIC'd numbers on all their breeding dogs. Full disclosure at point of sale for the potential health risks of this particular breed.
Develop an app for our cell phone that is a microchip scanner so that the prospective purchaser can scan a potential puppy to see if it has been microchipped prior to purchase of said puppy.

Then Educate Educate the puppy buying public of their rights and their own obligations.

There is approximately 80 million dogs living in homes in the USA. Even at a replacement or addition demand of 1% that means their is a national demand of 800,000 dogs annually. That is a whole lot of new puppies, so it does beg the question why are dogs in shelters? The demand is probably closer to 2% but the Stats are murky; and that is an astounding 1.6million dogs.

So the shelter rescue model needs to be addressed. If each shelter could work with grass roots dog organizations that will foster in home, train, love, until their for-ever family is found, one idea to look at.

We have some stats again murky or shakey on why ppl surrender dogs. And mostly it is the fault of the pet owner in one way shape or another. Oh I had children and now no time for the dog. The dog doesn't get along with my kids. I had to move. my dogs nips snarls and bites, but hey I took an 8wk old puppy obedience class once, and have done nothing since. My dog is sick and I can't afford the vet care.

Just some ideas, how valid are they? Don't know, I don't have access to the core research and data to even come to a viable offering of opinion.

[lynzy420]

this adopted as is? Where there any deletions or amendments?

[gemy]

Originally Posted by lynzy420

this adopted as is? Where there any deletions or amendments?

Per the AKC website:

On September 18, 2013, U.S. Department of Agriculture Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (USDA/APHIS) published new federal regulations that narrow the“retail pet store” exemption which has historically exempted many small/hobby breeders from regulation under the federal Animal Welfare Act (AWA).
The purpose is to bring internet-based pet breeders and sellers under the regulation of the AWA. However, the broadly-based regulation will also expand USDA oversight of pet breeders to also include people who maintain at least five “breeding females” of any species AND sell one pet “sight unseen.” There appear to be a number of possible exemptions available for a variety of circumstances. The AKC is currently working with USDA/APHIS to obtain more information and clarification on these and other issues, which we will share with you.
This is a regulatory, not legislative, change. The new regulations will go into effect on November 18, 2013.There was no vote in Congress and AKC has to work within the confines of an administrative – rather than legislative – process. Since the rule was first proposed in May 2012, the AKC has worked to educate USDA/APHIS about responsible breeders and dog owners and the potential impact of this rule change. Unfortunately many of our most important concerns were not addressed.
We strongly encourage you to review the resources below, including the frequently asked questions, to further understand the new rule, and to keep checking back, as we will continue to update this page as information becomes available.

[joyziegirl]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

They have us by the short hairs,

Gail....they have already thought of every out we could possibly come up with, in our effort to keep providing well bred, healthy pups, from breeders people can TRUST to be there when they need them. We cant keep them in the house, they need to be housed in specified cages with runs....it even states you can convert an extra room into a place for your dogs...I only have 4 breeding females, but that will be changed down to 2, then none in the upcoming years........now, the BYB's, that are throwing questionable dogs together, and then dumping them to unsuspecting, uneducated buyers, at flea markets and out of the back of their cars on the roadside, garage sales, or grocery store parking lots, they will continue to do just fine....they dont advertise, they dont spend a ton of money on websites or any of the other expenses that ensure these babies will live long healthy lives, they dump them at 6-8 weeks, their "ooops" ties, before vaccinations and well baby checks....no overhead, minimal expenses, probably NOT registerable.....no paper trails......and they are gone....owners are on their own.....this tears the sheet for me....it is no longer worth the effort or expense to continue what I have done with all the love in my heart and soul I possess....it never was a money making production for me...like my brother tried to console me with, "Think of the money you will save! Think of all the things you can do, and all the places you can go, anytime you want to! This is a blessing in disguise for you, sis...this passion of yours has you nailed to the house, 24/7....and you dont even make ends meet! It takes your additional income to support this business..... Move on, keep some of your own babies so you will have healthy babies to fool with and love, and let it go.....you can still have dogs, just not breeding them....all the fun and love of dogs and none of the expense and worry." He is making sense to me......I could not handle the HSUS, SPCA, and local yokel gestapo banging on my door, invading my home, confiscating my dogs, leaving me with nothing by a broken heart and huge fines for non compliance....I am done with this! 2013 will be the final act for Rosehill Yorkies.

These laws will be hard to enforce when it comes to someone breeding their personal pets. What I would like to know is how can government tell you how much personal belongings you can have. Dogs are not livestock in America, they are personal property. Big brother should not be making laws to tell you what you can do with your personal property, it's unconstitutional. You can thank the animal rights activist for this one. The HSUS pushed for this and came out smelling like a rose. For all the knucklehead that sent in their 19.00 donations to the HSUS, you gave them the power to do this to you. For all you so called do everything right dog breeders that were quick to call the home hobby breeder a BYB breeders, you did this, now its coming back to bite you in your own a$$ets. AKC is worried, as they should be because people will stop registering their litters with them and all the other registries out there so there will be no paper tail on the puppies they produce. It will go back to the era before the first registry ( the Kennel Club) was created. People will be selling their litters with a simple birth certificate and health guarantee within their own state. For all you home breeders that have a commercial looking website displaying all your breeding males and female, take it down! Best to sell your dogs through networking in private groups on Facebook, something that is becoming more and more popular. Just remember under the Economical Bill of Rights you have the right to farm your animal to support you families. I for one still believe in our constitution , and will exercise my 4th amendment rights if they ever come knocking on my door. AND IF THEY COME TO YOURS DON'T LET THEM IN WITHOUT A PROPER SEARCH WARRENT FROM YOUR STATES DISTRICT ATORNEY'S OFFICE. The USDA can't even keep up with inspecting their list of USDA breeders now. I'd like to see this broke ass governmet try to enforce their unconstitutional laws on Joe Citizen. WAFJ

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by joyziegirl

These laws will be hard to enforce when it comes to someone breeding their personal pets. What I would like to know is how can government tell you how much personal belongings you can have. Dogs are not livestock in America, they are personal property. Big brother should not be making laws to tell you what you can do with your personal property, it's unconstitutional. You can thank the animal rights activist for this one. The HSUS pushed for this and came out smelling like a rose. For all the knucklehead that sent in their 19.00 donations to the HSUS, you gave them the power to do this to you. For all you so called do everything right dog breeders that were quick to call the home hobby breeder a BYB breeders, you did this, now its coming back to bite you in your own a$. AKC is worried, as they should be because people will stop registering their litters with them and all the other registries out there so there will be no paper tail on the puppies they produce. It will go back to the era before the first registry ( the Kennel Club) was created. People will be selling their litters with a simple birth certificate and health guarantee within their own state. For all you home breeders that have a commercial looking website displaying all your breeding males and female, take it down! Best to sell your dogs through networking in private groups on Facebook, something that is becoming more and more popular. Just remember under the Economical Bill of Rights you have the right to farm your animal to support you families. I for one still believe in our constitution , and will exercise my 4th amendment rights if they ever come knocking on my door. AND IF THEY COME TO YOURS DON'T LET THEM IN WITHOUT A PROPER SEARCH WARRENT FROM YOUR STATES DISTRICT ATORNEY'S OFFICE. The USDA can't even keep up with inspecting their list of USDA breeders now. I'd like to see this broke ass governmet try to enforce their unconstitutional laws on Joe Citizen. WAFJ

No truer words ever spoken! You have hit the nail directly on the head on all counts you mentioned! You are absolutely right about registering litters....AKC says they will onlyrelease records under a court order.....if these gestapo jerks see that is one way to keep up with who is breeding, how many they are breeding, and how many they sell/year, as well as the new owners names, who they will then be contacting THEM for verification.....these people are about to fall on their own sword.....when you can no longer buy a registered puppy, understand why that has come about! And having this government directly involved in ALL your personal business is just beginning.......