New USDA breeding regulations

[intilis]

Originally Posted by intilis

Not a breeder, but it would seem to me that a buyer could just fly in to P/U their pup (about the same cost as shipping right?) then it wouldn't be "sight unseen". I don't know all the details from a breeders perspective. As a potential buyer, I always wondered why anyone would pay $300-$350 to have a pup shipped when they could pay a bit more & get to meet the pup parents & breeder. I know that I would feel better flying with my new pup for a little more rather than letting them fly with a courier or alone!!

I apologize if my first post made it seem as if I was not being supportive of the truly dedicated breeders on this site. I really know nothing of this law, and was naively trying to offer a solution.

[Verbena]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

I would hate to see good breeders giving it up because of these new regulations. The greeders won't care because they don't follow any regulations to begin with.

Yeah and if their dogs get confiscated they will just eat more . . This is very sad

[Verbena]

Originally Posted by intilis

Not a breeder, but it would seem to me that a buyer could just fly in to P/U their pup (about the same cost as shipping right?) then it wouldn't be "sight unseen". I don't know all the details from a breeders perspective. As a potential buyer, I always wondered why anyone would pay $300-$350 to have a pup shipped when they could pay a bit more & get to meet the pup parents & breeder. I know that I would feel better flying with my new pup for a little more rather than letting them fly with a courier or alone!!

I am sorry to say the flights are not always that cheap. A lot of the couriers work for the airlines. If I flew to pick up Galen it was going to be over $600. And then a drive 1.5 hrs to the house with a rental car. Then a room to rent. way too much. I had a wonderful courier that was used.

[Verbena]

I got Galen from a wonderful Biewer breeder. I could not find one close to my home to go and visit. I did my extensive research before even inquiring about a pup. I knew his line. I am so glad that he was brought up in the environment that he was in. In the house and underfoot. He is not afraid of anything. Not even the vacuum. That is because of my breeder. He is loving and gives lots of kisses. That is because of my breeder. I can go on pages but you get the idea. Why would they want to turn these loving dogs and their puppies into puppy mill dogs in kennels. I do not get that. Wouldn't they want to stop that. Do they not realize that these show dogs are also the family's pet, a family member. I really think they are penalizing the ones that actually follow the rules. Maybe they should really talk to show breeders and see what they do. Maybe they can learn an invaluable lesson.

[Amazing Yorkies]

I'm all for regulations that make sense to those of us that breed responsibly. I can tell you they consider a 6 month old puppy breeding age. I personally have 4 that are being watched for Show that are over 6 months old. I'm already in trouble.
I can guarantee that puppy mills and big producers will figure out some way to continue while the rest of us are a thing of the past. YorkieMom, I'm right there with you, I'm considering that this may be my last year too! You're brother may be right after all!

[gemy]

Peach Matyaszek


Rescues under the new Rule

Hi yall I feel the need to share this with you. I spoke to Craig Maybery at
USDA just now in regards to the exemption for rescues. WELLL it does not
seem as cut and dried and easy for rescue to slide under the raidar...
(misspelled on purpose LOL!) HE said that it depends on the business model
of the rescue, how many intact females in the rescue and where the dogs come
from and if they have a contract with a gov't agency or a gov't agency
oversees their activity. So since MOST if not all rescues get their dogs
from other sources have intact females on site ( up until they are spayed
hopefully) and many ship thru transports and run autonomous of any local
gov't control they WILL NOT be considered rescues but DEALERS!!!! ANd will
have to get DEALER licenses! They are called Class B licenses and include an
inspection and a sliding scale fee. The 501 c 3 will have NO BEARING on how
they are looked at by USDA THis is straight from his mouth. HOLY BAT POOP
BATMAN rescues are going to fold by the 100's Bet they do not see THIS
coming! NOr did I when I gave him the example of a local rescue (NOPE NOT
MINE NOR MY NAME!!!) I can think of at least 5 rescues within 50 miles of
here that think their poop does not stink and are untouchable.
NOw the question is do we talk to them and try to get them to see that
they are in 60 days going to be not so safe???? Or do we let them sink? THis
is enough to get many of the rescues that have done raids closed or at least
put thru the ringer.

This is a person I know and is a member of the BRTCA Black Russian Terrier Club of America.

Obviously if you are involved in rescue, please confirm this information.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by gemy

Peach Matyaszek


Rescues under the new Rule

Hi yall I feel the need to share this with you. I spoke to Craig Maybery at
USDA just now in regards to the exemption for rescues. WELLL it does not
seem as cut and dried and easy for rescue to slide under the raidar...
(misspelled on purpose LOL!) HE said that it depends on the business model
of the rescue, how many intact females in the rescue and where the dogs come
from and if they have a contract with a gov't agency or a gov't agency
oversees their activity. So since MOST if not all rescues get their dogs
from other sources have intact females on site ( up until they are spayed
hopefully) and many ship thru transports and run autonomous of any local
gov't control they WILL NOT be considered rescues but DEALERS!!!! ANd will
have to get DEALER licenses! They are called Class B licenses and include an
inspection and a sliding scale fee. The 501 c 3 will have NO BEARING on how
they are looked at by USDA THis is straight from his mouth. HOLY BAT POOP
BATMAN rescues are going to fold by the 100's Bet they do not see THIS
coming! NOr did I when I gave him the example of a local rescue (NOPE NOT
MINE NOR MY NAME!!!) I can think of at least 5 rescues within 50 miles of
here that think their poop does not stink and are untouchable.
NOw the question is do we talk to them and try to get them to see that
they are in 60 days going to be not so safe???? Or do we let them sink? THis
is enough to get many of the rescues that have done raids closed or at least
put thru the ringer.

This is a person I know and is a member of the BRTCA Black Russian Terrier Club of America.

Obviously if you are involved in rescue, please confirm this information.

Why would a rescue have to fold? They are being charged on a sliding fee IF they have to even register. Most legitimate rescues spay and neuter immediately anyway, and there are many free and low cost neutering clinics, so why would they have to have more than 5 unspayed females? Once of the newest scams are breeders calling themselves "rescues", so this name should not be enough to keep laws from applying to them. If the rescue has 5 unsprayed females and if they sell over the internet sight unseen, then they too should have inspections. I've seen too many animal hoarders who call themselves rescues and indeed they are nonprofit, but the animals are living in horrendous conditions. A legitimate rescue should have no problem with inspections. Gail you say "perception is everything, yet you pass on a message that warns 100's of rescues are going to have to fold." This is exactly the sort of thing that makes people panic before they know the facts.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Why would a rescue have to fold? They are being charged on a sliding fee IF they have to even register. Most legitimate rescues spay and neuter immediately anyway, and there are many free and low cost neutering clinics, so why would they have to have more than 5 unspayed females? Once of the newest scams are breeders calling themselves "rescues", so this name should not be enough to keep laws from applying to them. If the rescue has 5 unsprayed females and if they sell over the internet sight unseen, then they too should have inspections. I've seen too many animal hoarders who call themselves rescues and indeed they are nonprofit, but the animals are living in horrendous conditions. A legitimate rescue should have no problem with inspections. Gail you say "perception is everything, yet you pass on a message that warns 100's of rescues are going to have to fold." This is exactly the sort of thing that makes people panic before they know the facts.

And that is why I said in Red; if you are involved in rescues you should confirm this information.!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by gemy

And that is why I said in Red; if you are involved in rescues you should confirm this information.!

I'm having trouble opening the actual pdf file. http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publicatio...final_rule.pdf I don't know if it's my computer or if there's a problem with the site.

Here is the cashed version.

Questions and Answers: Retail Pet Store Final Rule

You will see many things that have been said are greatly exaggerated, for example breeders paying $750.00 a year for license, that's only if they sell $200,000 worth of animals.

Q. Won’t the costs for residential breeders lead

them to stop breeding their animals?

A. The cost of a license is highly unlikely to cause

affected breeders to change their normal business

operations. Even at the highest end of the range—an

estimated $760 for a breeder with gross revenues in

excess of $200,000—the cost of a license is less than

the sale price of many purebred dogs. The majority of

the breeders that may be affected by this rule already

meet facility standards and should incur few other

costs.

Also, claims that you won't be able to keep your animals in the home any longer.

Q. Will regulated breeders who keep their dogs in

their homes have to put them in a kennel?

A. Generally not. The AWA regulations define a

“primary enclosure” to mean any structure or device

used to restrict animals to a limited amount of space—

which means that a home can be considered a dog’s

primary enclosure. If a room of a house is used as a

dog’s primary enclosure (for instance, a whelping room

or nursery), AWA regulations and standards apply to

that room.

However, if a dog breeder allows his or her dogs to

have free run of the entire house, we have to determine

whether the home can house the animals within AWA

standards. If the breeder has a kennel or cages that

the dogs can stay in inside the home that meet AWA

standards, the breeder has satisfied the primary

enclosure requirements. A number of currently licensed

wholesale breeders maintain their animals in their

homes.

Here's the information on rescues:

RESCUE GROUPS AND POUNDS

Q. How will the final rule affect rescue groups that

participate in off-site adoption events?

A. People who engage in face-to-face transactions at

a place other than their premises, which include off-

site adoption events, are considered to be subject to

public oversight. As a result, they do not need to

obtain a license.

I think the bottom line for rescues is to get those females spayed.

[Nancy1999]

By the way, the Pdf file also answers, What is a breeding female?

Q. Under the final rule, what constitutes a breeding
female?
A. Only female animals with the capacity to breed are
considered “breeding females.” Females that an APHIS
inspector decides cannot breed due to age, infirmity,
illness, or other issues are not considered “breeding
females.”http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publicatio...final_rule.pdf

So, as someone mentioned before if a dog can't be spayed due to illness, it would not count as a breeding female.

[Ellie May]

I need to read the actual regulation instead of this Q and A stuff made to look like lollipops and sunshine.

Large rescues can easily have more than four unspayed females at a time. A lot of rescued animals are sick and can't immediately be spay. Also, as said above breeders have unspayed females around that they do not hreed. If the USDA so decides, they will be considered breeding females. Additionally, so what if a hreeder wants their females to live out their lives unspayed after retirement. That is their business. Even the veterinary organization specializing in repro belevethere are too many cons relating o spaying to orce it on owners.

I'm for rules, animal welfare, and non hoarding rescues. I hyst do not see this as a good starting place.

The kennel requirements are hard to find, but at a minumum there is fertain flooring needed, barriers, etc. So even if a separate kennel is not required breeders will be out a lot of money to convert their houses as will rescues.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I need to read the actual regulation instead of this Q and A stuff made to look like lollipops and sunshine.

Large rescues can easily have more than four unspayed females at a time. A lot of rescued animals are sick and can't immediately be spay. Also, as said above breeders have unspayed females around that they do not hreed. If the USDA so decides, they will be considered breeding females. Additionally, so what if a hreeder wants their females to live out their lives unspayed after retirement. That is their business. Even the veterinary organization specializing in repro belevethere are too many cons relating o spaying to orce it on owners.

I'm for rules, animal welfare, and non hoarding rescues. I hyst do not see this as a good starting place.

The kennel requirements are hard to find, but at a minumum there is fertain flooring needed, barriers, etc. So even if a separate kennel is not required breeders will be out a lot of money to convert their houses as will rescues.

If they are sick and can't be spayed it would be covered in "illness". Also, if they are really that large they do have to have some type of regulations to insure that the animals are being property cared for. What is so horrible about them having to register? If they don't want their animals spayed and they have more than 4 unsprayed females, then meet their clients in person and don't send sight unseen over the internet. So many people are against this, I'd like to know, what is a good starting place?

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I need to read the actual regulation instead of this Q and A stuff made to look like lollipops and sunshine.

Large rescues can easily have more than four unspayed females at a time. A lot of rescued animals are sick and can't immediately be spay. Also, as said above breeders have unspayed females around that they do not hreed. If the USDA so decides, they will be considered breeding females. Additionally, so what if a hreeder wants their females to live out their lives unspayed after retirement. That is their business. Even the veterinary organization specializing in repro belevethere are too many cons relating o spaying to orce it on owners.

I'm for rules, animal welfare, and non hoarding rescues. I hyst do not see this as a good starting place.

I had found this before, but now when I search for it under USDA or AWA I can't find the kenneling requirements. Sigh....

I did find an article talking about the requirements though. And there is no way a Whole house can meet those requirements.

Floors/ walls being sanitized, no sharp corners, sluicing requirements for dis-infecting all surfaces a dog might come in contact with....etc etc.



The kennel requirements are hard to find, but at a minumum there is fertain flooring needed, barriers, etc. So even if a separate kennel is not required breeders will be out a lot of money to convert their houses as will rescues.

And not to put too fine a point on it, APHIS should not have unlimited definition authority on what is a "breeding female". Where are the appeal procedures? Where are the explanations of how they define a breeding female? So they can make what-ever ruling they wish, without public oversight and or input into challenges for their definition? Balderdash I say!

Ellie we can't convert a whole home. It is impractical to say the least. Not to mention cost prohibitive!

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

By the way, the Pdf file also answers, What is a breeding female?




So, as someone mentioned before if a dog can't be spayed due to illness, it would not count as a breeding female.

So only APHIS inspectors can decide this? Based on what? Are they all breed and reproduction experts? WE are not talking about illness, but the risks of spaying dogs, and trust me those APHIS inspectors know not one whit for the over 300 dog breeds and what countenances risk of spaying for each and every individual breed of dog!

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

If they are sick and can't be spayed it would be covered in "illness". Also, if they are really that large they do have to have some type of regulations to insure that the animals are being property cared for. What is so horrible about them having to register? If they don't want their animals spayed and they have more than 4 unsprayed females, then meet their clients in person and don't send sight unseen over the internet. So many people are against this, I'd like to know, what is a good starting place?

Well.....
#1) Outlaw selling of puppies/kittens in pet stores....THAT is where the puppy mills sell their dogs! To shut down a puppy mill, you can not dirve responsible breeders out of business....hit the puppy mills in the pocket, and close down where THEY sell the majority of their pets. Also, I know personally people I used to work with that do NOTHING but sell to pet stores....at 6-8 weeks...totally under the radar, and they are making a LOT more money than I do!!!....they are going to keep flopping along, doing just fine....
2) Outlaw puppies (live animals) being sold at flea markets. This is disgraceful and hundreds of irresponsible breeders hawk their pups in flea markets....sick, dying, ill bred puppies. These stupid regulations will do NOTHING to stop this!
3) EDUCATE the public....spend all the money these animal activists line their pockets with, with flooding the market with info about what kind of dogs they are getting and what kind of people they are support when they buy ill bred babies, sold in shopping center parking lots, garage sales, flea markets, pet stores, etc.... Society MUST understand there are people that will REFUSE to get the message and will continue to support CHEAP dogs....I am sorry, but who is the bigger fool???? The fool or the fool that follows the fool????? You just can not legislate intelligence or common sense and the buying of cheap dogs will continue, and people will squeal like a pig under a gate when the pup dies on them, "cant imagine what in the world happened or what I did wrong".....Make it illegal and then enforce it, to sell live animals in open markets, garage sales, pet stores, etc. Go after the CROOKS that sell dogs on the internet and scam people, NOT honest people that sell dogs and do so honestly and stand by their dogs. Just because a person does not think it is the proper thing to do to sell a puppy off a website, if the breeder is not a crook and the puppy is exactly what the breeder claims it is, and she stands by her pup, and is responsive to the buyer, leave THESE people the heck alone! They are NOT hurting a single soul....go after the crooks, not the honest people, just because some people dont like the idea of selling pups unseen....this is perposterous(sp?)!!! This is where they couyld start, if they REALLY wanted to be effective against puppy mills....but it aint going to happen.
These people CLAIM they are trying to shut down puppy mills by stopping the buying of puppies on line or site unseen. That is stupid. If you want to go after crooks that do this, and have buyers that are damaged because they bought a puppy off a web site, PUT TEETH INTO LAWS THAT PUNISH THOSE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE. Designate someplace, say, the USDA, duh!!! where a person that has been scammed, has been sold a puppy that was sick or died immediately after the person bought the dog, cases of switch and bait, etc, etc, etc and let the USDA go after the CROOKS, making sure the people that were scammed or stolen from are compensated, and the "breeder" that sold them the puppy is raked over the coals. All these regulations have 2 purposes...generating revenue and to eventually make breeding all animals illegal.