What do you all think, I want an honest opinion!!! :) - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

kewtee · 12-05-2005, 08:14 AM

He is beautifull! I would take his pups in a heartbeat

But please don't cut of their tails - yorkietails are sooo cute

SoCalyorkiLvr · 12-05-2005, 08:16 AM

I am not a breeder and I am not qualified to evaluate your cute Toby for his ability to be a good stud dog. I can tell you that what these breeders are referring to I think is "LP" means Luxating Patellas or kneecaps that move out of position easily, a common fault in yorkies. I don't know why they didn't expain it after you asked but maybe they are thinking of something else. Sorry, but hope that helps and in my opinion, Toby does not have a "roach" back but he does not appear to have a level topline either. A "roach back" is one where the back is severely curved upward. If Toby is curved, it is slight, not severe from what the pictures show.

It is your decision whether to breed your male or not as you own him and there is no law against breeding a dog you own. There are a lot f breeders who breed for pet only and there is nothing wrong with that if they do it responsibly and don't breed dogs with major faults or genetic defects. We want the yorkie breed to stay the yorkie breed.

But...with that said, you said your reason for breeding was to "improve the breed" so if you are considering breeding for pet quality then you are not meeting your goal.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

YorkieRini · 12-05-2005, 08:17 AM

The reason to breed is to better the breed and keep the standard in your program. If you breed for pets it usually means a lot of the physical features that are called for in the standard will be lost or compromised. I feel Yorkies have become so extremely popular in a negative way. Bad breeders, mills, etc..are doing more than their share in producing pets. I would like to see more breeding to the standard and for the betterment of this lovely breed in additon to improving the health. LP is so rampant as is LS and LCP.

When I started breeding I didn't plan on being a 'show breeder'. I had a wonderful friend make a comment that has stuck with me. She said, showing is a way to measure my breeding program. Getting the judges opinion by winning or not winning is the way to know if your breeding program is bettering the breed. For the love of my YOrkies, I consider then all to be perfect..asking a unbiased expert comparing to the standard is going ot keep me on track. So I have a puppy that I produced that I'm gonna show and see how I'm doing. I see some faults in him (I am extremely critical of my own) but I keep telling myself there is no such thing as a perfect Yorkie.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but that's something to think about Long term with Toby. If he's good enough to breed. Does he produce those good qualities to continue the chain of the Yorkie Standard? Of course the female he is bred to does contribute. So to offer him for stud to just anything (for lack of better terms of course) may not do him justice either. Either you breed or you don't. To place an ad in teh paper or breed to your neighbors/friends Yorkie will not aid in bettering the breed. I am not saying this is what you are doing. Just giving an example of what may not work if you planned on doing it that way. What is your plan? Who would you breed him too? What are the plans for the pups? This is questions to think about.

Thanks for asking and being reseptive to all answers no matter how brutally honest they may be.

Irene

YorkieRini · 12-05-2005, 08:23 AM

<<But...with that said, you said your reason for breeding was to "improve the breed" so if you are considering breeding for pet quality then you are not meeting your goal.>>

SOOO IMPORTANT to keep fresh on your mind.No matter how cute or sweet the puppy is!!

Toby's Human · 12-05-2005, 08:29 AM

I asked for an honest opinion, and I will except what people tell me.

I guess it wouldn't be for bettering the breed you are right Kim.
But I guess what to me sticks out about him is his face. I think alot of the show dogs have beautiful bodies, perfect, but some of there faces look like rat faces to me... I know that is my opinion and I know that the Judges have theirs and so does everyone on YT. I love his face, I think that it is perfect to me. I have decided not to breed him for now--and probably forever---. I have alot of breeders in my area that I have met at the vets office and other places that have taken interest in Toby. I wasn't for sure that I would want to breed him. But this has given me insight on this subject. I know that alot of you are thinking these people must be backyard breeders if they would consider using Toby as their stud, but I have actually been to some of there houses for play dates. This was my real reason for asking.

YorkieRose · 12-05-2005, 08:31 AM

Is there anything wrong in breeding for pets? No, of course not, but do you know how you get pets?
You take two Yorkies that are excellent representations of the standard and breed them together. Most champions do not produce champions all the time.. they produce quality pets..and they produce a few show pups like themselves.
In a litter of 4, you might get one really nice show pup, one really nice breed quality and two pets! Any breeder who is putting everything in the ring isn't very discriminating..boy, I am being a BITCH today..that's oaky I love my bitches!

A male will produce himself, he will produce less then his quality, but for the most part he does not produce better then himself on a consistant basis..so that would mean we are not improving when we use a pet quality male for stud. These are just my observations and opinions, take them for what they are worth. LOL

YorkieRose · 12-05-2005, 08:33 AM

Sren't you sorry you made thsi post...LOL

We haven't mentioned pedigree...it goes hand in hand with conformation..can not have one without the other.

wnalegria · 12-05-2005, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I am not a breeder and I am not qualified to evaluate your cute Toby for his ability to be a good stud dog. I can tell you that what these breeders are referring to I think is "LP" means Luxating Patellas or kneecaps that move out of position easily, a common fault in yorkies. I don't know why they didn't expain it after you asked but maybe they are thinking of something else. Sorry, but hope that helps and in my opinion, Toby does not have a "roach" back but he does not appear to have a level topline either. A "roach back" is one where the back is severely curved upward. If Toby is curved, it is slight, not severe from what the pictures show.

It is your decision whether to breed your male or not as you own him and there is no law against breeding a dog you own. There are a lot f breeders who breed for pet only and there is nothing wrong with that if they do it responsibly and don't breed dogs with major faults or genetic defects. We want the yorkie breed to stay the yorkie breed.

But...with that said, you said your reason for breeding was to "improve the breed" so if you are considering breeding for pet quality then you are not meeting your goal.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I was going to get back with you but got beat to the point about the LP. I had to take a break get off the computer and take some medication. I am several weeks post radiation and tend to get sick when I take some of my medications.

I would suggest that you get a mentor as I stated before and talk about everything from A to Z. Go to shows let people point out structure problems to you. I have people contact me - I tell them what I do and do not like about my dogs and what I was looking for in a breeding.

Sorry Kim you are right you are not a breeder - but here it goes anyway- A roach back is a roach back regardless if being slight, moderate or severe. You can ask any of the breeders on here and they will tell you the same thing. Ask any vet or Animal orthopedic specialist you will be gave the same information it is just the degree of the problem. Yes this can be hereditay ( hope I spelled that right) and you can pass this of to your puppies.

I know that you will do what is best for you and for your little guy.

feminvstr · 12-05-2005, 09:51 AM

For someone that does not breed as close to the AKC standard is breeding pure pet quality at best. There is only one Yorkshire Terrier standard not pet standard and show standard as another member attempted to post on another thread.

Your pup does not have a baby doll face that is a true terrier expression, he does have a visable roach and appears to have a very long body.

It is good you have decided not to breed this little man and once you go to a show you will see plain and simple the reasons why.

sylvan · 12-05-2005, 09:59 AM

You have gotten GOOD advice from some of the great breeders on this site.
My breeding program has as it's ultimate goal to produce a show quality yorkie. Many pet quality pups are produced even when matching high quality yorkies that exemplify the standard. If you are starting with less than the best what you will be producing is anyone's guess.
Know matter how well read someone purports to be, there is nothing like hands-on, Mentored experience. Those who post information as fact without this kind of actual experience are reckless and should be ignored.

wnalegria · 12-05-2005, 10:11 AM

A dog can have a roach no matter how slight or severe. The other thing that we talk about as breeders is down at the shoulders a dip at the shoulders. You can stack a dog to make this go away on the table- but when he/she moves ( walks/runs) in the ring it is clearly visible. Handlers who have a dog with a bad topline work on teaching the dog how to stand to give the visual effect of a straight topline. You learn which is the best pace to help give the correct visual effect - moving your dog fast in the ring or moving more slowly. Fast is usually what is done. IMO slow just makes it more pronounced. A handler may get on the floor to stack the dog or may free bait if the dogs has learned how to stretch to correct this when in the ring. You will also notice this when they are relaxed and in their normal standing position.

puppygirl · 12-05-2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feminvstr

Your pup does not have a baby doll face that is a true terrier expression, he does have a visable roach and appears to have a very long body.

I have visited your website and it looks like you are a very experienced and reputable breeder. Please explain your comment about him not having a baby doll face. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I thought a baby doll face was a bad thing. They're supposed to have a medium length muzzle.

Jen

puppygirl · 12-05-2005, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnalegria

Sorry Kim you are right you are not a breeder - but here it goes anyway- A roach back is a roach back regardless if being slight, moderate or severe. You can ask any of the breeders on here and they will tell you the same thing. Ask any vet or Animal orthopedic specialist you will be gave the same information it is just the degree of the problem. Yes this can be hereditay ( hope I spelled that right) and you can pass this of to your puppies.

It is my understanding that a roach back is a cosmetic fault (shape of the vertebrae (sp?)and does not affect their soundness and will not cause any lameness or other health problems.

Do you agree?

Jen

sylvan · 12-05-2005, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puppygirl

It is my understanding that a roach back is a cosmetic fault (shape of the vertebrae (sp?)and does not affect their soundness and will not cause any lameness or other health problems.

Do you agree?

Jen

sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with this one. Roach back is much more than a cosmetic fault and should never be bred. Unfortunately some breeders do not even know what it is and keep perpetuating this problem.

feminvstr · 12-05-2005, 11:07 AM

Jen thanks for you sweet comments...the baby doll face was what "toby's human" called her little man. I was merely expressing that is wasnt. I much prefer the true terrier expression but with the shorter muzzle and shorter ears. The baby doll face tends to have a button nose and ears then appear out of proportion. The small muzzle and small ears keep the correct balance to the face.

As to the roach back IT IS NOT cosmetic it's a fault and will breed into its next generation. A roach back will never correct it self, it may be camoflaged as Kathy stated in a taught stack but will be ever apparent in the gait of the dog. That is a fault I would NEVER consider breeding in my program!

12-05-2005, 08:14 AM	#16
kewtee Donating YT Addict Join Date: May 2005 Location: Skagen, Denmark Posts: 769	He is beautifull! I would take his pups in a heartbeat But please don't cut of their tails - yorkietails are sooo cute __________________ Mette - proud mother of Kali - 6 lbs, born on March 18th 2004 Mare - 4 lbs, born on January 28th 2005

12-05-2005, 08:16 AM	#17
SoCalyorkiLvr BANNED! Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 8,246	I am not a breeder and I am not qualified to evaluate your cute Toby for his ability to be a good stud dog. I can tell you that what these breeders are referring to I think is "LP" means Luxating Patellas or kneecaps that move out of position easily, a common fault in yorkies. I don't know why they didn't expain it after you asked but maybe they are thinking of something else. Sorry, but hope that helps and in my opinion, Toby does not have a "roach" back but he does not appear to have a level topline either. A "roach back" is one where the back is severely curved upward. If Toby is curved, it is slight, not severe from what the pictures show. It is your decision whether to breed your male or not as you own him and there is no law against breeding a dog you own. There are a lot f breeders who breed for pet only and there is nothing wrong with that if they do it responsibly and don't breed dogs with major faults or genetic defects. We want the yorkie breed to stay the yorkie breed. But...with that said, you said your reason for breeding was to "improve the breed" so if you are considering breeding for pet quality then you are not meeting your goal. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. Last edited by SoCalyorkiLvr; 12-05-2005 at 08:19 AM.

12-05-2005, 08:17 AM	#18
YorkieRini Livin' La Yorkie Local Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 1,607	The reason to breed is to better the breed and keep the standard in your program. If you breed for pets it usually means a lot of the physical features that are called for in the standard will be lost or compromised. I feel Yorkies have become so extremely popular in a negative way. Bad breeders, mills, etc..are doing more than their share in producing pets. I would like to see more breeding to the standard and for the betterment of this lovely breed in additon to improving the health. LP is so rampant as is LS and LCP. When I started breeding I didn't plan on being a 'show breeder'. I had a wonderful friend make a comment that has stuck with me. She said, showing is a way to measure my breeding program. Getting the judges opinion by winning or not winning is the way to know if your breeding program is bettering the breed. For the love of my YOrkies, I consider then all to be perfect..asking a unbiased expert comparing to the standard is going ot keep me on track. So I have a puppy that I produced that I'm gonna show and see how I'm doing. I see some faults in him (I am extremely critical of my own) but I keep telling myself there is no such thing as a perfect Yorkie. Sorry to go off on a tangent, but that's something to think about Long term with Toby. If he's good enough to breed. Does he produce those good qualities to continue the chain of the Yorkie Standard? Of course the female he is bred to does contribute. So to offer him for stud to just anything (for lack of better terms of course) may not do him justice either. Either you breed or you don't. To place an ad in teh paper or breed to your neighbors/friends Yorkie will not aid in bettering the breed. I am not saying this is what you are doing. Just giving an example of what may not work if you planned on doing it that way. What is your plan? Who would you breed him too? What are the plans for the pups? This is questions to think about. Thanks for asking and being reseptive to all answers no matter how brutally honest they may be. Irene Last edited by YorkieRini; 12-05-2005 at 08:20 AM.

12-05-2005, 08:29 AM	#20
Toby's Human YT Addict Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 335	I asked for an honest opinion, and I will except what people tell me. I guess it wouldn't be for bettering the breed you are right Kim. But I guess what to me sticks out about him is his face. I think alot of the show dogs have beautiful bodies, perfect, but some of there faces look like rat faces to me... I know that is my opinion and I know that the Judges have theirs and so does everyone on YT. I love his face, I think that it is perfect to me. I have decided not to breed him for now--and probably forever---. I have alot of breeders in my area that I have met at the vets office and other places that have taken interest in Toby. I wasn't for sure that I would want to breed him. But this has given me insight on this subject. I know that alot of you are thinking these people must be backyard breeders if they would consider using Toby as their stud, but I have actually been to some of there houses for play dates. This was my real reason for asking. __________________ Ashley Toby

12-05-2005, 08:31 AM	#21
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	pets Is there anything wrong in breeding for pets? No, of course not, but do you know how you get pets? You take two Yorkies that are excellent representations of the standard and breed them together. Most champions do not produce champions all the time.. they produce quality pets..and they produce a few show pups like themselves. In a litter of 4, you might get one really nice show pup, one really nice breed quality and two pets! Any breeder who is putting everything in the ring isn't very discriminating..boy, I am being a BITCH today..that's oaky I love my bitches! A male will produce himself, he will produce less then his quality, but for the most part he does not produce better then himself on a consistant basis..so that would mean we are not improving when we use a pet quality male for stud. These are just my observations and opinions, take them for what they are worth. LOL

12-05-2005, 08:23 AM	#19
YorkieRini Livin' La Yorkie Local Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 1,607	<<But...with that said, you said your reason for breeding was to "improve the breed" so if you are considering breeding for pet quality then you are not meeting your goal.>> SOOO IMPORTANT to keep fresh on your mind.No matter how cute or sweet the puppy is!!

12-05-2005, 08:33 AM	#22
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	Ps Sren't you sorry you made thsi post...LOL We haven't mentioned pedigree...it goes hand in hand with conformation..can not have one without the other.

12-05-2005, 09:51 AM	#24
feminvstr Donating YT 4000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 4,405	For someone that does not breed as close to the AKC standard is breeding pure pet quality at best. There is only one Yorkshire Terrier standard not pet standard and show standard as another member attempted to post on another thread. Your pup does not have a baby doll face that is a true terrier expression, he does have a visable roach and appears to have a very long body. It is good you have decided not to breed this little man and once you go to a show you will see plain and simple the reasons why. __________________ Kimberly

12-05-2005, 09:59 AM	#25
sylvan YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Eastern PA Posts: 2,484	You have gotten GOOD advice from some of the great breeders on this site. My breeding program has as it's ultimate goal to produce a show quality yorkie. Many pet quality pups are produced even when matching high quality yorkies that exemplify the standard. If you are starting with less than the best what you will be producing is anyone's guess. Know matter how well read someone purports to be, there is nothing like hands-on, Mentored experience. Those who post information as fact without this kind of actual experience are reckless and should be ignored.

12-05-2005, 10:11 AM	#26
wnalegria Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Indianapolis Indiana Posts: 815	A dog can have a roach no matter how slight or severe. The other thing that we talk about as breeders is down at the shoulders a dip at the shoulders. You can stack a dog to make this go away on the table- but when he/she moves ( walks/runs) in the ring it is clearly visible. Handlers who have a dog with a bad topline work on teaching the dog how to stand to give the visual effect of a straight topline. You learn which is the best pace to help give the correct visual effect - moving your dog fast in the ring or moving more slowly. Fast is usually what is done. IMO slow just makes it more pronounced. A handler may get on the floor to stack the dog or may free bait if the dogs has learned how to stretch to correct this when in the ring. You will also notice this when they are relaxed and in their normal standing position.

12-05-2005, 11:07 AM	#30
feminvstr Donating YT 4000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 4,405	Jen thanks for you sweet comments...the baby doll face was what "toby's human" called her little man. I was merely expressing that is wasnt. I much prefer the true terrier expression but with the shorter muzzle and shorter ears. The baby doll face tends to have a button nose and ears then appear out of proportion. The small muzzle and small ears keep the correct balance to the face. As to the roach back IT IS NOT cosmetic it's a fault and will breed into its next generation. A roach back will never correct it self, it may be camoflaged as Kathy stated in a taught stack but will be ever apparent in the gait of the dog. That is a fault I would NEVER consider breeding in my program! __________________ Kimberly