honest question to breeders

[topknot]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Oh, I wouldn't think that any breedings would repeat themselves but you would be able to recognize traits from this or that line. Right now, I have a litter of 7 week olds from Roger and Bonnie and I see the family resemblance. It's way too early to say anything for certain and I'm constantly eye-balling them, but I feel really good about them.

This pair has some nice bloodlines but it would be considered a broken line of champions. I'm very confident in my dam's background and the sire's paternal line is good, but the maternal line is kind of a wild card. I did keep a girl from their first litter and just had her bred back to her Mom's line. She's due late April/early May and I'm very excited.

What's your kennel name? I am always looking at pedigrees and studying.

I pretty much breed only to champions. I like nice strong lines so I have a better idea as to what I might get. Mary is right - genetics are hard. You can do a repeat breeding and get one look and then breed the same again hoping to get a repeat and may get a total different look. I like my pups to all be about the same look, very typey. And usually they are. I have done line breeding and sometimes go with an outcross if the dogs are exceptional. I look at both dogs to match - and want them to be an excellent match. You have to know their faults well and never double up on them and never to have a bad fault in either. Faults are very hard to breed out - like the large ears we mentioned before on another post.

When evaluating a pup - there is a lot that goes into it. Someone mentioned the quality of the pup. That is correct, but there is so much into grading or evaluating the quality. Yes, you are looking at the standard when evaluating, but there is so much to consider. And what you might think is a good quality pup at 12 weeks can totally fall apart by 5 or 6 months. And one you think will not make the cut, totally improve and turn out to win Best In Shows and has happened before. What was the name of that dog that was petted out and then the breeder took a look at him later and talked the owner into showing and ended up winning BIS? I can't remember his name now. So you just do not know sometimes. Reason it is so umportant to hold on to pups longer, especially if it is a new match. Or at least be very close to where the pups go so you can see them from time to time as they grow and develop. A good breeder needs to know how the match turned out.
I go with gut feeling a lot of time as I am watching a pup and hope for the best. Also I will have other help me decide and evalute as well (experts in our breed). Then my hubby decides too for me sometimes. LOL I can keep a girl, but no more boys for now. So even though I may end up with a great boy - I need to pet him out. I have two males now (one champion and one soon to be hopefully a champion this year) and that is all I am allowed to have, says hubby. All of our dogs are in our home and are our pets. So you can keep only so many. So hoping for a fantastic girl. Wishing, wishing....

Also you need to look at the pedigrees, the parents, and even grandparents, besides the pup's quality (pup's quality is formost). It is very complex. Breeding and picking quality is not to be taken likely. Again, with our breed it is one of the hardest thing to do. Now I am not taking about a pet breeding with no champions, sorry to say this is usually pretty easy to decide difference between this litter and a litter from show breeders - from my own experience - JMO.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by topknot

What's your kennel name? I am always looking at pedigrees and studying.

All my dogs are registered as Dixie's so and so. Bonnie is Dixie's Bonnie Blue II and Roger is Dixie's Blue Buccaneer. I don't really considerate it a kennel name and am thinking of a more appropriate name. I have something in mind but will keep mum on it until I register it.

As I mentioned earlier, my dogs are from a broken line. They're great lines, so it's not like trying to make a silk purse from a pig's ear, but I do think my boy's maternal line has been in too many hands. Bonnie, my girl, has more consistent lines and has been in the same breeder's hands since the more prominent dogs championed. Bonnie's line is loaded up with Carneal's Charged and Ready and Roger, my boy, is loaded up with Ju-Gene's Popeye the Sailor on his paternal side.

I've since bred one of their daughter's back to her maternal line and am expecting pups soon. I hope to breed Bonnie one more time and use Roger's father, thereby bypassing Roger's maternal line.

[Brooklynn]

I'm like Mary, I don't charge more just because I might have had a C-section ect...I've also been known to go down on price just because I know the pup was going into a good pet home. I have a set price for pets and one for show...I charge the same for a male as I do a female if I'm selling as a pet. I don't sell show dogs because I breed on a very limited basis and if it's going for show it's mine I sold one to a show home once and she didn't grow to the size for showing/breeding so I bought her back and placed her with her sister in a great pet home for less than I could have gotten because she had a great home waiting for her and to be with her sister I never regretted buying her back and placing her with her sister! That was the best decision I ever made! Since I don't breed much and when I do I'm breeding for the show dog for myself only everything else will be place as a pet and be spayed/neutered before leaving my house and the price will not be uped just because I spayed/neutered the yorkie.
Donna

[topknot]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I'm like Mary, I don't charge more just because I might have had a C-section ect...I've also been known to go down on price just because I know the pup was going into a good pet home. I have a set price for pets and one for show...I charge the same for a male as I do a female if I'm selling as a pet. I don't sell show dogs because I breed on a very limited basis and if it's going for show it's mine I sold one to a show home once and she didn't grow to the size for showing/breeding so I bought her back and placed her with her sister in a great pet home for less than I could have gotten because she had a great home waiting for her and to be with her sister I never regretted buying her back and placing her with her sister! That was the best decision I ever made! Since I don't breed much and when I do I'm breeding for the show dog for myself only everything else will be place as a pet and be spayed/neutered before leaving my house and the price will not be uped just because I spayed/neutered the yorkie.
Donna

I do not charge more for pups from c-sections. If I could have - in the last 2-3 years I would have had to hike up my price a ton - ugh... 4 c-sections in 3 years and 2 of them ended up with no pups. I only breed for myself too for a show dog for myself and sell all other pups as pets, no matter how nice with all spay/neuter strict contracts. Last litter for me was almost 2 years ago. So I only have a litter every year or two years. It has been tough going, especially with my first champion bred to a very nice champion male and got a c-section and only one tiny girl from that one, then two other c-sections and got no pups, and then another c-section and got 4 pups finally. C-sections by the way were not related to their size - my last section mom is 6 pounds bred to a 4 pound male. So you never know. Pup tried to come out bent in half with back coming down canal and feet and head touching facing back to uterus. This was a first for me.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by topknot

What's your kennel name? I am always looking at pedigrees and studying.

I pretty much breed only to champions. I like nice strong lines so I have a better idea as to what I might get. Mary is right - genetics are hard. You can do a repeat breeding and get one look and then breed the same again hoping to get a repeat and may get a total different look. I like my pups to all be about the same look, very typey. And usually they are. I have done line breeding and sometimes go with an outcross if the dogs are exceptional. I look at both dogs to match - and want them to be an excellent match. You have to know their faults well and never double up on them and never to have a bad fault in either. Faults are very hard to breed out - like the large ears we mentioned before on another post.

When evaluating a pup - there is a lot that goes into it. Someone mentioned the quality of the pup. That is correct, but there is so much into grading or evaluating the quality. Yes, you are looking at the standard when evaluating, but there is so much to consider. And what you might think is a good quality pup at 12 weeks can totally fall apart by 5 or 6 months. And one you think will not make the cut, totally improve and turn out to win Best In Shows and has happened before. What was the name of that dog that was petted out and then the breeder took a look at him later and talked the owner into showing and ended up winning BIS? I can't remember his name now. So you just do not know sometimes. Reason it is so umportant to hold on to pups longer, especially if it is a new match. Or at least be very close to where the pups go so you can see them from time to time as they grow and develop. A good breeder needs to know how the match turned out.
I go with gut feeling a lot of time as I am watching a pup and hope for the best. Also I will have other help me decide and evalute as well (experts in our breed). Then my hubby decides too for me sometimes. LOL I can keep a girl, but no more boys for now. So even though I may end up with a great boy - I need to pet him out. I have two males now (one champion and one soon to be hopefully a champion this year) and that is all I am allowed to have, says hubby. All of our dogs are in our home and are our pets. So you can keep only so many. So hoping for a fantastic girl. Wishing, wishing....

Also you need to look at the pedigrees, the parents, and even grandparents, besides the pup's quality (pup's quality is formost). It is very complex. Breeding and picking quality is not to be taken likely. Again, with our breed it is one of the hardest thing to do. Now I am not taking about a pet breeding with no champions, sorry to say this is usually pretty easy to decide difference between this litter and a litter from show breeders - from my own experience - JMO.

Tina,

You and I know the first 3 generations are what contribute to a dog's genetic make-up. But, even at that it's how the genetics shake up in the breeding. I have a lot of Johnnie Handsome in my pedigrees and I keep hoping that one day I'll get another Johnnie.....one can only hope.

[topknot]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Tina,

You and I know the first 3 generations are what contribute to a dog's genetic make-up. But, even at that it's how the genetics shake up in the breeding. I have a lot of Johnnie Handsome in my pedigrees and I keep hoping that one day I'll get another Johnnie.....one can only hope.

That is all we can do.

[topknot]

I do love to follow a good pedigree back to the dogs I knew in the 80s. So fun to see what went to what and how it came from this and ended up there. It is sad though too to see it have good beginnings and then someone got ahold of it and did their own breedings and it turned out crap.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by topknot

That is all we can do.

Remember I too have a small girl. 7 months of age 4.8 pounds, which fluxuates dow to 4.3 pounds.. Fine bones.....so, I don't think I want to take a chance on her......But, guess what, she's being placed as a pet with a Trainer that Trains animals for the Movies. Boone's Animals for Hollywood. Yep, the wee one is going to be in the movies.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by topknot

I do love to follow a good pedigree back to the dogs I knew in the 80s. So fun to see what went to what and how it came from this and ended up there. It is sad though too to see it have good beginnings and then someone got ahold of it and did their own breedings and it turned out crap.

Yeah! Even now I see some great lines end up where they shouldn't be.

[topknot]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Remember I too have a small girl. 7 months of age 4.8 pounds, which fluxuates dow to 4.3 pounds.. Fine bones.....so, I don't think I want to take a chance on her......But, guess what, she's being placed as a pet with a Trainer that Trains animals for the Movies. Boone's Animals for Hollywood. Yep, the wee one is going to be in the movies.

That is great Mary! I think if I petted my small one out now, my hubby would have a flipping attack. He has gone through course 1 of Obediance and is about to start course 1, so she can get her therpy license. She is smart as a whip. But no pups for her in the future. We had a feeling she was not going to grow. Small features and only 4 pounds. She will be 2 in June.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by topknot

That is great Mary! I think if I petted my small one out now, my hubby would have a flipping attack. He has gone through course 1 of Obediance and is about to start course 1, so she can get her therpy license. She is smart as a whip. But no pups for her in the future. We had a feeling she was not going to grow. Small features and only 4 pounds. She will be 2 in June.

I just can't keep a girl that can't be Championed, well she probably could have, but I wouldn't have bred her....she may reach 5 pounds, but her fine bones just scares me....She'll only be 3 miles up the road. So, I'll get to see her for grooming and occassional boarding....since her trainer does travel onto movie sets....

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by topknot

I do love to follow a good pedigree back to the dogs I knew in the 80s. So fun to see what went to what and how it came from this and ended up there. It is sad though too to see it have good beginnings and then someone got ahold of it and did their own breedings and it turned out crap.

I do feel a responsibility to the bloodlines I have and feel my dogs have potential. From all I can tell, Bonnie's line has been well handled, both paternal and maternal. Roger's paternal line I have confidence in but not so much the maternal line.

I know you all say it's the first 3 generations that count. Bonnie has 6 champions in her 3 gen., including a BISS. Roger has none in 3 gen., but his paternal line comes from exhibitors kennels (up until his sire) and the 4th through 6th gens. has many champs. Also, Roger and Bonnie share 5 common (chanmpion) ancestors in 6 generations.

I think I have something worth working with. It's not as tight a line as I'd like to have, but I do have hopes .

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

So are you saying that good breeders sell Yorkies for under $100.00 in Washington?

Regarding purchase price of a dog, I really don't see it as buying a dog, as much as I looking at it as showing support for a breeder whose breeding program I endorse. I think many good breeders do the same thing, and offer substantial discounts to clients who have another one of their dogs. Occasionally dogs held back for possible showing, are later sold as pets, and they are often sold at substantial discounts, but I've never heard one sold for the price of a pound puppy.

I don't think I said "under a 100 dollars" - I was just commenting on how it appears that different parts of the country price Yorkies (& other breeds of dogs) differently. Maybe different attitudes regarding dogs, I don't know. Just interesting that's all. One of my yorkies has a championship background, show quality, etc...but still it simply would be unheard of for her to be offered for sale, in my particular area, at some of the higher prices I've seen in listed by SOME breeders in SOME areas of the country, including the northwest. That is not to say ALL Washington state breeders sell their Yorkies lower than other parts of the country...that was simply an observation about my particular area. How far my particular area is in that regard I don't know. It could be a 50 mile radius, it could be 200 miles... I was not lumping every breeder on the west coast into one category. It seemed pretty clear to me at the time, but maybe I wasn't clear - sorry.

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

I don't think I said "under a 100 dollars" - I was just commenting on how it appears that different parts of the country price Yorkies (& other breeds of dogs) differently. Maybe different attitudes regarding dogs, I don't know. Just interesting that's all. One of my yorkies has a championship background, show quality, etc...but still it simply would be unheard of for her to be offered for sale, in my particular area, at some of the higher prices I've seen in listed by SOME breeders in SOME areas of the country, including the northwest. That is not to say ALL Washington state breeders sell their Yorkies lower than other parts of the country...that was simply an observation about my particular area. How far my particular area is in that regard I don't know. It could be a 50 mile radius, it could be 200 miles... I was not lumping every breeder on the west coast into one category. It seemed pretty clear to me at the time, but maybe I wasn't clear - sorry.

I should probably also clarify "show quality" - I really have no idea if she is "show quality" -- I don't show. All I know is when I had her at the vet for a visit the vet told me her mother apparently use to show yorkies years ago and that she grew up with yorkies and wanted to know if I was going to show her, then she called in the vet techs and said, '..see this is what I was talking about, this is what a show yorkie looks like..' she went on and on about her conformation, her apparent "natural ability"/stance, markings, carrying herself,perfect health as a bonus, etc. Took her around the office, walking her, commenting on her gait, telling to consider showing her (which I remember thinking, I don't think the time to learn about showing dogs is AFTER you get one) ( also, at the time I really had no idea what all she was talking about) To which,not being into the show scene I just thought 'well that's nice' as we left, just glad to hear she was healthy...then a few months later I took her to visit the breeder I got her from and she made a big deal of how she shouldn't have let that one go, she then called her daughter (who owns the stud) to come over and look at her, to which they went on and on about her -- hinting at buying her back. Another vet later told me that she was one of the most perfect Yorkies he had ever seen. When I was asking about spaying, he told me to wait as "she should be bred" and not to rush into it as once done it couldn't be undone.

So does that make her "show quality"? I don't know, maybe she's just really ugly and everyone felt sorry for me and just said all that because they didn't know what else to say...all I know is show quality or not, the price I paid for her wouldn't had been any higher from my particular breeder - in my particular area, but would have been considerably less on a limited registration.

I didn't have intentions of breeding her when I got her, I just know that limited registrations (in my particularly area) are pretty worthless, thus I figured it'd be better to keep all my options "just in case" ( which seems to be the prevailing attitude "for the area" ) --- seems like she has turned out to be "just in case" -- but even with all that I probably won't breed her - I think about it, have studied up on it as I believe it's interesting and good to know, have met with two breeders and learned about the process (who both incidentally, said they think she should be bred) but in the end I probably won't and will eventually have her spayed, but it's nice to have that option. Like her regular vet said, there's no rush. Hope that clarifies any thing I said. I don't want anyone picking on a word or two and changing it into something that wasn't said or implied.

[topknot]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I do feel a responsibility to the bloodlines I have and feel my dogs have potential. From all I can tell, Bonnie's line has been well handled, both paternal and maternal. Roger's paternal line I have confidence in but not so much the maternal line.

I know you all say it's the first 3 generations that count. Bonnie has 6 champions in her 3 gen., including a BISS. Roger has none in 3 gen., but his paternal line comes from exhibitors kennels (up until his sire) and the 4th through 6th gens. has many champs. Also, Roger and Bonnie share 5 common (chanmpion) ancestors in 6 generations.

I think I have something worth working with. It's not as tight a line as I'd like to have, but I do have hopes .

I was making a general statement from what I saw from others, not you since I do not know the pedigrees of your dogs. I would have to take a look at your pedigrees to see what you have if you want me too.

If she has 6 champions in her 3 generations that would be her parents and all grandparents all are champions. Is this right? Who is the BISS? One of my boy's has a BIS/BISS winner - his grandsire is.