dock or not? advice?

[nsyorkies]

Puppymills - a definition

The Humane Society of the United States provides this definition of puppymills: "Puppymills are breeding facilities that produce purebred puppies in large numbers. The puppies are sold either directly to the public via the Internet, newspaper ads, at the mill itself, or are sold to brokers and pet shops across the country."
AAS (Animal Advocates Society) would not include the word "purebred" as many puppymills are breeding popular crossbreeds that are not AKC or CKC registered.
The Canadian Kennel Club definition: The members of the National Companion Animal Coalition(NCAC),consisting of;the Ministry of Agriculture,Canadian Kennel Club,Canadian Veterinary Medical Association,Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council,Canadian Federation of Humane Societies and the RCMP have developed the following agreed upon definition of a "puppymill".
...A puppymill has been defined by the NCAC as a high-volume, sub-standard dog breeding operation which sells purebred or mixed breed dogs, to unsuspecting buyers. Some of the characteristics common to puppymills are:
a)Sub-standard health and/or environmental issues;
b)Sub-standard animal care,treatment,and/or socialization;
c)Sub-standard breeding practices which lead to genetic defects or hereditary disorders;
d)Erroneous or falsified certificates of registration,pedigrees,and/or genetic background.
Note: These conditions may also exist in small volume or single-breed establishments.
The AAS definition:

A puppymill is any place or person or business that:
1. Breeds more than one dog at a time;
2. Sells pups without screening of the purchaser;
3. Sells pups to retail pet stores and puppy resellers;
And/or keeps the dogs and pups:
1. Isolated from human interaction: i.e. exclusively in kennels, sheds, garages, trailers, pens, basements and closets;
2. In conditions generally accepted by the public to be dirty and unhealthy: in cages and buildings that lack light; outside in rain and cold; in mud; feces and urine;
3. In a condition generally accepted by veterinarians as unhealthy; skin, ear, eye, penis and vaginal/utereal infections; rotten and broken teeth; overgrown nails; parasitic infestations; and other disease and unhealthy conditions.
puppymills generally breed pure-breds or popular mixes and charge several hundred dollars to a thousand dollars per pup. Many puppymills are registered with the Canadian Kennel Club.
Backyard breeders - a definition

A backyard breeder is a person who:
1. Breeds only one dog at a time;
2. May breed their dog just once, but for the purpose of making little money;
3. May repeat breed the same dog;
4. May dispose of one dog and obtain another (more lucrative) to breed;
5. Often keeps the dog and pups in a yard, garage, shed, basement, closet, or pen;
6. May sell puppies as young as four weeks, with no vaccinations, and for as little as $50, although some backyard breeders sell pups of more desirable breeds for several hundred dollars each.
7. Often breeds the pups that end up being killed in pounds when they are abandoned as unwanted adults: cross breeds of German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Huskies, Pit Bulls, and other large breed dogs.
A backyard breeder does not include the family or person that breeds the family dog once and keeps the pups in the house with them, making sure the pups are well-socialized and healthy, does not give away or sell the pups until they are 10-12 weeks old, and carefully screens prospective adoptors, making several homes visits and refusing a pup to unsuitable people.

I would have to agree that any facility that has dogs
1. Isolated from human interaction: i.e. exclusively in kennels, sheds, garages, trailers, pens, basements and closets;


is a Puppy Mill, regardless of how clean it is! (Commercial Dog Breeding Facilities). I believe dogs in these facilities are puppy making machines for profit ONLY! They also usually sell to brokers /pet shops and are not able to screen future owners, which fuels the Puppy Mill furnace! In my opinion! They can not be a healthy, happy, well adjusted dog if they live in a kennel/cage. I think Commercial Dog Breeding Facilities are Puppy Mills!

[Reese1]

Originally Posted by nsyorkies

Puppymills - a definition

The Humane Society of the United States provides this definition of puppymills: "Puppymills are breeding facilities that produce purebred puppies in large numbers. The puppies are sold either directly to the public via the Internet, newspaper ads, at the mill itself, or are sold to brokers and pet shops across the country."
AAS (Animal Advocates Society) would not include the word "purebred" as many puppymills are breeding popular crossbreeds that are not AKC or CKC registered.
The Canadian Kennel Club definition: The members of the National Companion Animal Coalition(NCAC),consisting of;the Ministry of Agriculture,Canadian Kennel Club,Canadian Veterinary Medical Association,Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council,Canadian Federation of Humane Societies and the RCMP have developed the following agreed upon definition of a "puppymill".
...A puppymill has been defined by the NCAC as a high-volume, sub-standard dog breeding operation which sells purebred or mixed breed dogs, to unsuspecting buyers. Some of the characteristics common to puppymills are:
a)Sub-standard health and/or environmental issues;
b)Sub-standard animal care,treatment,and/or socialization;
c)Sub-standard breeding practices which lead to genetic defects or hereditary disorders;
d)Erroneous or falsified certificates of registration,pedigrees,and/or genetic background.
Note: These conditions may also exist in small volume or single-breed establishments.
The AAS definition:

A puppymill is any place or person or business that:
1. Breeds more than one dog at a time;
2. Sells pups without screening of the purchaser;
3. Sells pups to retail pet stores and puppy resellers;
And/or keeps the dogs and pups:
1. Isolated from human interaction: i.e. exclusively in kennels, sheds, garages, trailers, pens, basements and closets;
2. In conditions generally accepted by the public to be dirty and unhealthy: in cages and buildings that lack light; outside in rain and cold; in mud; feces and urine;
3. In a condition generally accepted by veterinarians as unhealthy; skin, ear, eye, penis and vaginal/utereal infections; rotten and broken teeth; overgrown nails; parasitic infestations; and other disease and unhealthy conditions.
puppymills generally breed pure-breds or popular mixes and charge several hundred dollars to a thousand dollars per pup. Many puppymills are registered with the Canadian Kennel Club.
Backyard breeders - a definition

A backyard breeder is a person who:
1. Breeds only one dog at a time;
2. May breed their dog just once, but for the purpose of making little money;
3. May repeat breed the same dog;
4. May dispose of one dog and obtain another (more lucrative) to breed;
5. Often keeps the dog and pups in a yard, garage, shed, basement, closet, or pen;
6. May sell puppies as young as four weeks, with no vaccinations, and for as little as $50, although some backyard breeders sell pups of more desirable breeds for several hundred dollars each.
7. Often breeds the pups that end up being killed in pounds when they are abandoned as unwanted adults: cross breeds of German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Huskies, Pit Bulls, and other large breed dogs.
A backyard breeder does not include the family or person that breeds the family dog once and keeps the pups in the house with them, making sure the pups are well-socialized and healthy, does not give away or sell the pups until they are 10-12 weeks old, and carefully screens prospective adoptors, making several homes visits and refusing a pup to unsuitable people.

I would have to agree that any facility that has dogs
1. Isolated from human interaction: i.e. exclusively in kennels, sheds, garages, trailers, pens, basements and closets;


is a Puppy Mill, regardless of how clean it is! (Commercial Dog Breeding Facilities). I believe dogs in these facilities are puppy making machines for profit ONLY! They also usually sell to brokers /pet shops and are not able to screen future owners, which fuels the Puppy Mill furnace! In my opinion! They can not be a healthy, happy, well adjusted dog if they live in a kennel/cage. I think Commercial Dog Breeding Facilities are Puppy Mills!

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Britster

My dad's friend cut off his thumb while chopping up wood. He said it was VERY painful and he's a tough dude. He was screaming & crying. It didn't bleed a ton though surprisingly.

Mine didn't bleed a whole lot either...got it at the first knuckle. It didn't hurt when I did it, but hours later when the feeling came back and leeches were stuck on the end of it to suck out the clotted blood (yuck!), that was a different story!

[Britster]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Mine didn't bleed a whole lot either...got it at the first knuckle. It didn't hurt when I did it, but hours later when the feeling came back and leeches were stuck on the end of it to suck out the clotted blood (yuck!), that was a different story!

Yikes! So finger was it, and how did you cut it off? (sry, you might have already said that)... I just think it would be sooo painful.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Britster

Yikes! So finger was it, and how did you cut it off? (sry, you might have already said that)... I just think it would be sooo painful.

She put it up her nose to far...the doctor had to cut it off....


Bama are you kidding me...leeches?????

[BamaFan121s]

Ha ha...Cindy.

Yes, pointer finger, right hand. OK, I would say "promise not to laugh," but....
So, you know on swingsets the see-saw looking things? Know those big plasic guard things on the hinges where they attach to the frame? Yeah, well...those guards didn't always use to be there! For some reason, I thought swinging it from the top was a GREAT idea. Not so much.

I think I was 13, 14 at the time? Felt it and just thought I'd pinched it--that was about what it felt like. Turns out it had severed the nerves so bad and so quickly, that I didn't have any left there TO feel anything. Ended up having to have a pin in my finger to fix the bone and had to have the rest sewn back together. By the time they reattached it, the blood in the tip had started and there was no circulation. Thus, they put medical leaches on the end of it to suck out the congealing blood and restart circulation. Nasty, but it worked, so no complaints. Still can't feel a darn thing in the end of that finger though...so that's always the one I offer up for any bloodwork.

I can say that I have a pretty wicked looking fingerprint now though.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Ha ha...Cindy.

Yes, pointer finger, right hand. OK, I would say "promise not to laugh," but....
So, you know on swingsets the see-saw looking things? Know those big plasic guard things on the hinges where they attach to the frame? Yeah, well...those guards didn't always use to be there! For some reason, I thought swinging it from the top was a GREAT idea. Not so much.

I think I was 13, 14 at the time? Felt it and just thought I'd pinched it--that was about what it felt like. Turns out it had severed the nerves so bad and so quickly, that I didn't have any left there TO feel anything. Ended up having to have a pin in my finger to fix the bone and had to have the rest sewn back together. By the time they reattached it, the blood in the tip had started and there was no circulation. Thus, they put medical leaches on the end of it to suck out the congealing blood and restart circulation. Nasty, but it worked, so no complaints. Still can't feel a darn thing in the end of that finger though...so that's always the one I offer up for any bloodwork.

I can say that I have a pretty wicked looking fingerprint now though.

Oh Lord, it hurts just reading about it...but you will be great at Halloween being a witch and pointing that nasty old finger at some poor little kid...Hey and just for a chuckle or two maybe you can add the leeches...

No wonder you can write as great as you can..All the blood went to your head and stayed there....

[BamaFan121s]

Hey...you can't even tell it ever happened unless you look really hard. That fingernail grows kind of funny, I have a scar and my finger is a bit uneven at the tip...but you really don't notice.

But I'll leave the leaches for someone else...once is enough. (Although I did find a few in my FLOWERBED after a 2 month bought of rain this summer! )

[livingdustmops]

It really is amazing what doctors can do...wow!

[friscomom]

Originally Posted by brendah

Would it be bad to leave the tails?

Absolutely not! The American standard is in the slow painful process of change, and they will be going to full tails. If you can breed stronger tails all the better for the happy dogs. The AKC won't feel a thing, even if they seem to cry out, and won't miss their stubs when they're gone.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by friscomom

The American standard is in the slow painful process of change, and they will be going to full tails.

What on Earth give you that indication? To the best of my knowledge, YTCA has made no mention of changing the American standard" anytime soon. Maybe that is what YOU would like to see happen as a result of a ban on docking, and there may be some in favor of it...but that does NOT mean the "American standard is in the process of changing."

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

What on Earth give you that indication? To the best of my knowledge, YTCA has made no mention of changing the American standard" anytime soon. Maybe that is what YOU would like to see happen as a result of a ban on docking, and there may be some in favor of it...but that does NOT mean the "American standard is in the process of changing."

As a member I've heard nothing being changed to a full tail....and remember its not the AKC that changes the standard it is the parent club that does the changing and so far there has been NO discussion of taking the docked tail out of the standard....

Donna

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

As a member I've heard nothing being changed to a full tail....and remember its not the AKC that changes the standard it is the parent club that does the changing and so far there has been NO discussion of taking the docked tail out of the standard....

Yep...sounds like some 'wishful thinking.'

[friscomom]

Well, let me try to explain. I've watched fights before, and it looks to me like the YT club is outnumbered, outranked, no visible means of support outside of poodle country, and they're wrong. Cutting off puppy tails isn't something YTCA likes to talk about it, since it upsets people and their rationalizations are flimsy. They have to cloak the practice in 'soft' terms like 'docking' to prevent weirdos understanding what they're talking about and going ballistic, making embarrassing scenes and drawing attention and all that. While the hopeful defender AKC proclaims to the press that cutting puppies ears and tails off are Important procedures for Important dogs doing Important things for the Nation, like Military, Police, and Humanitarian services, the rationale doesn't translate over to little yorkies and poodles. They tell you to go ask your vet, and the good vets of the world don't like chopping off ears and tails for no good reason, and have plainly and strongly said so. Thus the AKC will withdraw support of the YT club (who I'm not convinced even exist as they don't answer emails) in favor of self defense, since their position is unsustainable in the face of popular public and political passion to restore the earth to a more natural state.

Some pretty plain and strong language dockers are facing:
Illinois SB 139 moved that a person convicted of performing tail docking or ear cropping who is NOT a licensed veterinarian performing it for a medical reason will be guilty of a Class 3 felony, sharing the category with torture. "As a condition of the sentence imposed the court shall order the offender to undergo a psychological or psychiatric evaluation."

New York AB 7218 for dogs leaves it as a misdemeanor, but we all love NY.

California's SB 135 passes with 75% in favor granting CA cows 'the legal right to swat flies', and the Huffington Post starts up about it, it all looks pretty clear to me that cute little puppies with their tails chopped off won't sell well soon, whereas [shudder] puppy mills who could care less about standards might do quite well and even go pro.

I don't see a lot of Americans buying dogs in the next few years anyway, do you? And 'as goes California'...I know a few things about manufacturing for California... Anyway, as animal welfare groups make their rounds of New York, Vermont, Wisconsin, etc. well, it's clear enough to me what the writing on the wall is, because people are a herding animal, and we follow the leader, whoever seems to be strongest at the time.

Wishful thinking? You bet! Best of luck in your endeavors!

[jencar98]

Friscomom, you've stated in another thread here tonight that your own yorkies neuter and/or retained baby teeth have been put on "your back burner". I would suggest to you that perhaps your own dog is in dental pain or discomfort and just maybe you should worry about him before you tackle the entire tail docking cause.

Your rhetoric is a waste of my time.