dock or not? advice?

[nsyorkies]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I'm sure that it *can* be very painful and traumatic for them if it's not done properly. When I had my last litter done, they were 3 days old and three of the four never even woke up. So if it was "tramatic," they slept right through it and never knew. I always find those types of comments very comical given that my experiences with docking have been so different.

Nancy again (you know the one with the comical comment). Would you mind explaining how it is done properly? So puppies sleep through the whole process! From my own experience and listening to the youtube video-A Yorkshire Gives Birth- it IS "traumatic" and would love to know your secret!! I have attached a link to the video of a Yorkie tail docking, it happens in the middle-ish of the video. I am not making this up!

YouTube - Yorkshire Terrier has puppies! Dog...

[QuickSilver]

I know this is a touchy subject, and I don't think tail docking is the biggest issue facing dogs today - I'd say the biggest issue is puppy mills.

However, I would love to see tail docking banned in the US. It seems wrong to put a puppy through any pain for something that is not only cosmetic, but arbitrary. If you are used to seeing stubby tails, long tails will look "wrong" - but the reverse is ALSO true. Once long tails are standard in the US, as they are in many parts of the world, a stubby tail will look strange.

The fact is also that Yorkies have really beautiful tails, and they use those tails to express themselves, just as all dogs do. I grow the hair on Thor's tail extra long so I can at least see it wag.

I also want to say that I remember reading a thread here a few months ago about a first time breeder who was getting some mentoring from YT. She had the puppies docked at the vet's, and she said she was really shocked at how awful it seemed. She also said that it really upset the mother dog, to which some experienced breeders here responded, "oh yeah, you should never let the mother dog see it, she'll freak out." So I think honestly, a lot of people do know it's painful for the animal, it's just that they are very used to it.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by nsyorkies

Nancy again (you know the one with the comical comment). Would you mind explaining how it is done properly? So puppies sleep through the whole process! From my own experience and listening to the youtube video-A Yorkshire Gives Birth- it IS "traumatic" and would love to know your secret!! I have attached a link to the video of a Yorkie tail docking, it happens in the middle-ish of the video. I am not making this up!
YouTube - Yorkshire Terrier has puppies! Dog gives birth

I've seen that before and it makes me sooo sad & so glad that Jackson didn't have to go through this.

I know they forget about it and it doesn't traumatize them for life anything.

But it just IRKS me that it's done for HUMAN "pleasure" and what humans think is acceptable on a dog. I just think it's dumb personally.

That's not to say dogs with the little nubs aren't cute. I just find it selfish of humans just because "it looks better."

To me - it's the same as cropping ears. "Oh, I don't like my dogs floppy ears -- let's cut them so they point up. Just because they look better that way." I know Yorkies don't do the cropped ears but the Boxers, etc.

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I know this is a touchy subject, and I don't think tail docking is the biggest issue facing dogs today - I'd say the biggest issue is puppy mills.

However, I would love to see tail docking banned in the US. It seems wrong to put a puppy through any pain for something that is not only cosmetic, but arbitrary. If you are used to seeing stubby tails, long tails will look "wrong" - but the reverse is ALSO true. Once long tails are standard in the US, as they are in many parts of the world, a stubby tail will look strange.

The fact is also that Yorkies have really beautiful tails, and they use those tails to express themselves, just as all dogs do. I grow the hair on Thor's tail extra long so I can at least see it wag.

I also want to say that I remember reading a thread here a few months ago about a first time breeder who was getting some mentoring from YT. She had the puppies docked at the vet's, and she said she was really shocked at how awful it seemed. She also said that it really upset the mother dog, to which some experienced breeders here responded, "oh yeah, you should never let the mother dog see it, she'll freak out." So I think honestly, a lot of people do know it's painful for the animal, it's just that they are very used to it.

[nsyorkies]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I know this is a touchy subject, and I don't think tail docking is the biggest issue facing dogs today - I'd say the biggest issue is puppy mills.

However, I would love to see tail docking banned in the US. It seems wrong to put a puppy through any pain for something that is not only cosmetic, but arbitrary. If you are used to seeing stubby tails, long tails will look "wrong" - but the reverse is ALSO true. Once long tails are standard in the US, as they are in many parts of the world, a stubby tail will look strange.

The fact is also that Yorkies have really beautiful tails, and they use those tails to express themselves, just as all dogs do. I grow the hair on Thor's tail extra long so I can at least see it wag.

I also want to say that I remember reading a thread here a few months ago about a first time breeder who was getting some mentoring from YT. She had the puppies docked at the vet's, and she said she was really shocked at how awful it seemed. She also said that it really upset the mother dog, to which some experienced breeders here responded, "oh yeah, you should never let the mother dog see it, she'll freak out." So I think honestly, a lot of people do know it's painful for the animal, it's just that they are very used to it.

I agree that Puppy Mills are a MUCH bigger issue. I also agree that people/breeders that dock puppies tails are accustom/desensitized to it.

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by nsyorkies

I agree that Puppy Mills are a MUCH bigger issue. I also agree that people/breeders that dock puppies tails are accustom/desensitized to it.

We can tackle more then one issue at a time. The laws are changing a lot, and all the time. More laws are being passed every day. You will never be able to get rid of mills unfortunately. Also have to say that commercial breeders are not all puppy mills. I have seen horrid conditions with a handful of dogs and immaculate care of dogs in commercial breeding.

But I want to see some regulations if not an outright ban on docking a dew claw removal as well as all other cosmetic/amuptation surgeries. Doesn't bother me if it is a hot top or not, I think it should be talked about and I think we can all learn something by doing that.

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by nsyorkies

Nancy again (you know the one with the comical comment). Would you mind explaining how it is done properly? So puppies sleep through the whole process! From my own experience and listening to the youtube video-A Yorkshire Gives Birth- it IS "traumatic" and would love to know your secret!! I have attached a link to the video of a Yorkie tail docking, it happens in the middle-ish of the video. I am not making this up!
YouTube - Yorkshire Terrier has puppies! Dog gives birth

Thank you for sharing that. I have never seen the twisting off the tail before. And I don't understand who the heck thought up that barbaric way. Even try to clamp your finger? forget it, that is painful. So clamp it, and twist and the pup is in obvious pain and fear. Then the dewclaw, he said it, THUMB.. that 5th toe indeed is a toe, and one that is actually used by dogs. It is the same as if you were to cut off your own thumb.

I have done months of research on docking and cutting off dewclaws and also got opinions and advice from my vet and other vets. It is extremely rare that a dog will get their dewclaws yanked off, torn, etc. When they run they use that toe, when they mate they use it to hold onto the female making mating easier for a reluctant female. I could go on, but the information is out there if you look.

That video was VERY informative and the breeder is impressive, but the fact remains it is very painful and traumatic, and YES it does stay with them for life even if they don't remember outright, which who really can say if they do or don't. Dogs have LONG memories and short lives so who can really say they don't remember.

In the UK they had banned breeders from doing any of this and made it so only vets could do it. Now it is illegal, and can only be done for medical reasons.

If more people in the US were to stop docking, and more were to show them in the ring, the more normal it will look and the more judges would accept them as well.

[nsyorkies]

Originally Posted by mommadog1

We can tackle more then one issue at a time. The laws are changing a lot, and all the time. More laws are being passed every day. You will never be able to get rid of mills unfortunately. Also have to say that commercial breeders are not all puppy mills. I have seen horrid conditions with a handful of dogs and immaculate care of dogs in commercial breeding.

But I want to see some regulations if not an outright ban on docking a dew claw removal as well as all other cosmetic/amuptation surgeries. Doesn't bother me if it is a hot top or not, I think it should be talked about and I think we can all learn something by doing that.

Such GREAT comments from all over the world!. I agree dicussing these "Hot Topics'' is the beginning to changing them!

''Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. In fact, it's the only thing that ever has."
Margaret Mead 1901-1978

[Reese1]

Originally Posted by mommadog1

We can tackle more then one issue at a time. The laws are changing a lot, and all the time. More laws are being passed every day. You will never be able to get rid of mills unfortunately. Also have to say that commercial breeders are not all puppy mills. I have seen horrid conditions with a handful of dogs and immaculate care of dogs in commercial breeding.

But I want to see some regulations if not an outright ban on docking a dew claw removal as well as all other cosmetic/amuptation surgeries. Doesn't bother me if it is a hot top or not, I think it should be talked about and I think we can all learn something by doing that.

I'm not a breeder and I don't like thinking of the pain the puppies goes through. It wouldn't stop me from buying a puppy with a tail. If it was outlawed, then it would be a non-issue with standard.

I do agree that puppy mills are a bigger issue for sure.
I disagree about commercial breeders not being puppy mills. I don't care if the place is immaculate, if you are churning out a bunch of puppies that you are considered a commercial breeder, that is a puppy mill. IMO!

[diane boden]

For some breeds in tis country the docking ban has been a good thing as certain members of society no longer want them as status symbols, they no-longer look tough enough, unfortunately they've now turned to other breeds and crosses, of these breeds.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

The fact is also that Yorkies have really beautiful tails, and they use those tails to express themselves, just as all dogs do. I grow the hair on Thor's tail extra long so I can at least see it wag.

Yes, beautiful tails like Britster's Jackson. I'm honestly jealous. I also let Kaji's tail hair grow extra long. I love being able to see it wag. Actually he shakes it! Don't get me wrong, his little nub is very cute, but I find the full tail to be more expressive. The dew claws I see more of a reason for those getting removed. My old roomie's dog's dew claws were literally just barely hanging on. If she would to get them caught on something, I know she would be losing them for sure and at her age it would be very painful.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by nsyorkies

Nancy again (you know the one with the comical comment). Would you mind explaining how it is done properly? So puppies sleep through the whole process!

Ya know, I've seen this video and dozen of others that have been posted on this site. All I can tell you is what I have experienced first hand, which was 3 out of 4 pups not even waking up while their tails were docked. I watched my vet, she rubbed a bit of gel-like novaciane on the tail, waiting a few minutes, sniped it, put quick stop on, and handed them back to me. Never a whimper from them. So apparently, she did something right. If your experiences and the videos you've watched show you something different, well, don't really know what to tell you. Just offering my experience, which I believe I am entitled to do. I never claimed you were 'making it up,' although I do think it's blown out of proportion by some at times. All I can do is share my experience, which I believe I am entitled to do. Sorry if it's a disappointment that not every experience with docking is as 'traumatic' as the next.

Originally Posted by mommadog1

It is the same as if you were to cut off your own thumb.

So, have you ever cut your thumb off in order to be able to make that comparison, or is it just a theory? Just curious...

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Ya know, I've seen this video and dozen of others that have been posted on this site. All I can tell you is what I have experienced first hand, which was 3 out of 4 pups not even waking up while their tails were docked. I watched my vet, she rubbed a bit of gel-like novaciane on the tail, waiting a few minutes, sniped it, put quick stop on, and handed them back to me. Never a whimper from them. So apparently, she did something right. If your experiences and the videos you've watched show you something different, well, don't really know what to tell you. Just offering my experience, which I believe I am entitled to do. I never claimed you were 'making it up,' although I do think it's blown out of proportion by some at times. All I can do is share my experience, which I believe I am entitled to do. Sorry if it's a disappointment that not every experience with docking is as 'traumatic' as the next.

So, have you ever cut your thumb off in order to be able to make that comparison, or is it just a theory? Just curious...

Actually very close to completely cutting it off.. However, I think you know I meant that you need your thumb, just as a dog needs their 5th digit. Yes you can learn to live without it but unless there is a medical reason for removing your thumb then why would you do it?!

I also have my experience to go by, as well as research that proves they use the 5th digit. I researched for over a year before I finally decided not to dock and remove dewclaws. It was something I took lightly and just decided not to do one day.

You have the choice to dock or not and I would never tell someone not to do it even if I don't agree with it. That is not my right. But like you, I am also entitled to express my beliefs

I have never seen a puppy sleep through having their tail and dewclaws removed. Not saying you are wrong, but I do find it really hard to believe..sorry but that is from my own experiences over the last 30 years.

[BamaFan121s]

LOL...we have something in common then. I did cut my finger off...on a swing set, go figure!

You have your research and experience and I have mine. Clearly they are very different experiences, thus differing opinions. Pretty frequent thing...no worries!

[Britster]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Ya know, I've seen this video and dozen of others that have been posted on this site. All I can tell you is what I have experienced first hand, which was 3 out of 4 pups not even waking up while their tails were docked. I watched my vet, she rubbed a bit of gel-like novaciane on the tail, waiting a few minutes, sniped it, put quick stop on, and handed them back to me. Never a whimper from them. So apparently, she did something right. If your experiences and the videos you've watched show you something different, well, don't really know what to tell you. Just offering my experience, which I believe I am entitled to do. I never claimed you were 'making it up,' although I do think it's blown out of proportion by some at times. All I can do is share my experience, which I believe I am entitled to do. Sorry if it's a disappointment that not every experience with docking is as 'traumatic' as the next.



So, have you ever cut your thumb off in order to be able to make that comparison, or is it just a theory? Just curious...

My dad's friend cut off his thumb while chopping up wood. He said it was VERY painful and he's a tough dude. He was screaming & crying. It didn't bleed a ton though surprisingly.

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

LOL...we have something in common then. I did cut my finger off...on a swing set, go figure!

You have your research and experience and I have mine. Clearly they are very different experiences, thus differing opinions. Pretty frequent thing...no worries!

Egads! My husband this last summer almost lost his pinky, it was disgusting to see but I took pictures of it..LOL.. He cut off the tip of the ring figure. The pinky was bad, and broken too. He did it while putting in a fence for his moms friends. I think it is called a pile driver, ha I cannot remember. but he pulled it out to far and then coming back down it got his fingers.

I cut my thumb to the bone, well into the bone actually from a jar of preservative I use to make lotion. It was a small jar too but the lid was stuck (I almost used my teeth) I barely turned it and it broke and immediately went right through my thumb at the bottom knuckle. I know, gross huh..

As long as there are people, there are going to be differences of opinions. And I always respect someone else's opinion..or I at least try to.I am not as perfect as my dogs think I am

Oh and I should probably make it clear I have not bred any yorkies yet. I have a couple years to wait yet before I can do that. My first yorkie was supposed to be my foundation bitch but she ended up being way to small. She is about 3.6 pounds, last time I checked she was 4 pounds but it wasn't until after she was spayed that she gained, and it was chubby weight..lol.. So cut out the higher calorie stuff and that helped. She is 4 years old.

I know how some people feel about "designer" dogs, but I breed 2nd and 3rd generation cockapoos. I started the American cockapoo club in order to keep tract and work towards making them a recognized breed. The club became to much for me to handle, it was hard getting people to help. So I sold it, it is doing very well, and we are getting closer. Cockapoo is a dumb name and eventually we WILL change it, but we are getting closer to the goal.

I love cockapoos, they are great dogs. I used to dock their tails and dewclaws but I just couldn't find a good reason to keep doing it and more and more people were asking for their pups to have the tails left on. The standard calls for them to be either way but more and more cockapoo breeders are leaving the tails natural.

Now when it comes to the yorkies, i have to be 100% honest here and say that i am not sure what I will do when it comes time. As much as I loathe docking, it is part of the standard and it is what people want to see..

So I am thinking I will give the option to people on my waiting list and dock otherwise. BUT I am going to find a vet who will numb the tail first and who will not stitch, I think this is what hurts them the most!

When I was doing it myself I never stitched. When my vet or any vet did it they stitched, it was awful.

Towards the end right before I quit docking I started doing the tails and 5th digit as soon as they were born and I found they barely seemed to feel it, especially the dews. and it was also easier because they were so soft and tiny.

Sometimes my cockapoo babies have back dews and I always remove those, they are always very floppy and have no bone in them, but they grow nails and these DO catch because they are so floppy. Sometimes they even have doubles back there.. it is weird but I have been told it happens with most breeds, just not all the time. I can have a litter of 6 and have only 2 like that.