I'm sure if it gets to that point we will change our breeding practices. I believe that is why many breeders say to keep breeding the carriers back into the program.

I don't wish ill will on any ones breeding program or their dogs. That would be a very sad thing. Like the bulldogs and other short nosed dogs that have breatjhing issues. That is very sad.

We have a club and we share our information. he Biewer has been around longer than the partis. There are more Biewer breeders. No one has reported a problem with the Biewers. And they have been breeding Biewer to Biewer for a long time, although some do still use splitters.

When I first joined YT I heard all of these same things being said about the Biewer breedeers.

In my reading one of the exceptions mentioned is the Samoyed. I also found some reference to the white German Shepherd not being truly white but rather is considered a very light buff color (looks white to me, tho). In general, what I've read seems to indicate that it's the white hair, along with a loss of skin pigmentation, that is an indicator of potential problems. I also read there is a group of Dachshund breeders trying to establish their own standard that would include piebalds but they aren't getting any support from the breed club due to the health concerns. It does seem like, across the board, piebald dogs are not recommended to breed due to the risks. From my understanding, deafness doesn't show up until later in the life of the pups but the health concerns aren't limited to deafness.

Would you mind telling us how many members are in your club, and how many dogs have been produced, and do all breeders keep in contact with the families over the years? Only the extreme whites are born deaf, with others it takes more time.

[QUOTE=bchgirl;2447741]The following are where biewers are shown as a breed of their own....NAKC, IABCA, and ARBA. So no, it is not necessary to register with any of the registeries you've listed above. QUOTE]

Biewers can be registered with ARBA, in Germany, with local Biewer registeries, with NAKC, and IABCA.

[quote=scrapindee;2447840]Yes, I understand...I was trying to explain it to others here, but I may have been confusing.

Again they are registered as Biewer Yorkshire Terrrier a la pom pon. OR one club uses the name Biewer Terrier. Those are the names they are registered and shown under.

I have no clue what other than yorkshire terriers were included in the make up of the breed.

Our club is very new, and there aren't as many serious parti yorkie breeders out there yet. most of us have just recently aquired our partis and hfave yet to even have our first parti pups.

This will take time.

Thank You.

I assume that you are not among those that are trying to establish the Biewers as a breed separate from the Biewer yorkshire Terriers.

The Biewer Terriers are the ones that I am asking about.

There seems to be a reluctance to answer those questions about the Biewer Terrer.

You are kidding, right ... do you know how many breeds there are that are spotted? I don't think that "piebald dogs are not recommended to breed due to the risk" ... if that were the case, we'd have 30-50% fewer breeds than we do now.

So far my piebald dogs have been healthier than any of the standard Yorkies that I have owned and all of my Yorkies came from 'reputable' breeders.

Sue, this is exactly what I was thinking. :rolleyes: I believe it was Nancy that said that it is the "extreme white" that are born with problems (I assume she is talking about deafness)...well, I would venture to say that Maltese, Bichons, Westies are all "extreme white". I wonder if breeders of these dogs realize that their dogs are doomed to deafness. :rolleyes: ;)

Sorry I should have said that the extreme whites are more likely to be born deaf; with others it takes time to develop the deafness. I have to say it bothers me that some of you are so defensive about this, and don't even seem open to discovering the truth. It does seem like some of you, just want to make a few jokes, and roll your eyes at how stupid this is.

It is the Merling gene that causes deafness and blindness in dogs. I bred australian shepherds, Breeding 2 dogs with the merle gene produces pups that are blind or deaf if they are born with a solid white head. The merle gene is not the same as the piebald gene. They dont have to be extreme white, Just an all white head to be deaf or blind.

Here's one link that discusses the piebald gene, and deafness. DEAF PUPPIES

Here a quote from the link I gave:

No, I'm not kidding and I think you're over-simplifying things to make your point. Here's a quote from a link I provided earlier...." The first white color pattern called "Irish Spotting" (S^i - typical "Lassie" white markings) that is not related to deafness (even when the dog has 2 copies of it), since it is very minimal and doesn't extend into the dog's ears. Besides Collies, it is also carried by the Boston Terrier and Basenji (to mention just a few).

Piebald

The second white pattern is commonly seen in Beagles (and other hounds), Bulldogs, Cocker Spaniels and English Setters (and other breeds as well). It is called the Piebald Spotting Gene (S^p - non-symmetrical random white pattern). This pattern does not always cause deafness, it is only a problem when the inner ear is missing pigment (see "What Causes Deafness in Dogs?" above).

Extreme White

Dalmatians, Boxers, Bull Terriers, Great Pyrenees, and possibly Mantle/Boston Great Danes (this is not known for certain) are examples of the Extreme White Spotting (or Extreme Piebald) Gene (S^w). When the other half of the gene pair is a solid, the dog will have a white blaze, collar, and white legs (known as "flashy" in Boxers). If two dogs with this pattern are bred, 25% of the pups will be almost all white (known as "pattern white," or "color headed white"). Sometimes these dogs will be deaf, and sometimes not, depending on where the pigment ends up. Dalmatians are homozygous for this gene (carry 2 copies), with the spots in the coat being caused by the ticking gene (which can combine with any of the other white trims as well)."......As you can see, the piebald gene MAY cause deafness. Your response to my post tries to lump all spotted dogs together, which just isn't the case.

You're correct that the merle (or dapple) gene may cause deafness. It isn't the only coloring gene that does, though. Here's another quote from a previously posted link....."Double Dapple and Piebald Patterned Dachshund
Health Issues

As keepers of this breed, we are morally and ethically responsible for the health, welfare, and future of our beloved dachshund. With this in mind, the Dachshund Club of America (DCA) membership voted to remove the double dapple pattern from its revised Official Dachshund Standard (March, 2007), and to exclude the piebald as a new pattern, since our standard now calls for a small amount of white on the chest as acceptable, but not desirable. The exception is the single dapple (merle) pattern, where a large amount of white on the chest is acceptable.

The main reason – health problems which are detrimental to our breed.

Offspring from double dapple (merle x merle) and dapple x piebald breedings can be born:

• deaf, partially deaf

• blind, partially blind

• with no eyes

• sterile, impaired sperm production

Just as you, knowingly, should not breed any other health problem into your gene pool, you should not breed dapple to dapple or dapple to piebald. Generally, dappling is easy to discern since it can easily be seen with the naked eye. There are some coats, however, where the dappling is so minimal that just a few hairs are dispersed through the coat, some or all of which may be camouflaged. In addition, it is sometimes hard to differentiate a dapple pattern from a piebald because many of the patterns look so similar, especially to the untrained eye. Therein lies the problem – there are times when it is very difficult to classify merles from piebalds. (see below)

Double Dapple Dachshunds



Piebald Dachshunds



doubledapples

Throughout the world, over many years, there have been numerous scientific studies on double merle breedings, albeit, not only dachshunds but other breeds, as well. The fact that double dapples have health problems is well-established. In his book, Inherited Eye Diseases in Pure Bred Dogs (Williams & Wilkins, May 1989), the highly regarded veterinary ophthalmologist, Dr. Lionel Rubin, states, “Because of the extensive anomalies in the progeny, merle to merle breedings are to be avoided...” In Genetics of the Dog, Malcolm B. Willis, BSc, Phd. writes, “...the merle gene in dachshunds has not only revealed eye problems (Wegner and Reetz, 1975; Dausch et al 1977) but

piebalds

also impairment of sperm production (Treu et al 1976) and hearing problems (Reetz et al 1977).”

On the other hand, there have not been many (if any) lengthy studies done on piebalds, as yet. The piebald pattern carries a potential risk of health problems, specifically deafness. The research study regarding deafness to which The AKC Health Foundation issued a grant, indicates that increasing amounts of white in the coat increase the likelihood of deafness. Heather Pate, of DDEAF, Deaf-initely Dogs, the official newsletter of Deaf Dog Education Action Fund, www.ddeaf.org, stated in the Spring 2002 edition: “Genes for coat color that are intricately linked to deafness are the merle genes and piebald genes. Merle genes produce the dappled or merle effect of multicolored individual hairs. Piebald genes affect the amount and distribution of white on the dog’s coat....” If our breed has increasing numbers of piebalds in its gene pool, it stands to reason that we will eventually have more deafness in our breed."...........With this in mind, I'll ask my original question again. What makes the Yorkie unique to other breeds as far as piebalds go? Piebald is piebald, no matter the breed and the potential health risks are real. Why, given that prospect, would someone knowingly breed for that trait?

The continued breeding of the extreme parti gene in Boxers has caused an increase in deafness. This is why almost all reputable Boxer breeders cull out the white puppies and do not breed them. It does not effect all white puppies though, but the chances of getting a deaf dog or passing on this gene is very high.

This seems to be in line with what I've read; that the continued breeding of these dogs (piebalds) increases the risk of deafness. Maybe it won't happen early on, but isn't breeding for this trait like playing Russian Roulette with the pups' health? That's the really sad part of this.

Yes. The continued breeding back to piebald/parti genes over and over may open up more health problems over generations of breeding. Only time will tell.

They are registered in ARBA as the Biewer Terrier. ARBA will not accept a dog that is registered as a Biewer Yorkshire Terrier. The pure bred magazines such as Dog Fancy etc. accepted them as Biewer Terriers because of ARBA. There are other canine health foundations such as CHIC, associated with OFA and AKC, that have recognized them as Biewer Terriers and the BTCA as the parent club.
The Biewer Terrier will more than likely not develop the deafness and blindness traits because they are geneticly different from the Partis.

This may sound dumb, but is that one reason why the Biewer should have a colored face? I thought I read that somewhere about breeding for color on the face lessens the chance of deafness. Or does the Biewer not have the piebald/parti gene?

Since you quoted what I wrote, it's pretty safe to assume that you are talking about me...you don't have to write, "some of you"....I don't mind if you say that you are referring to my post.

As for making this into a joke...obviously, I do not think of it as being funny (since I am a parti owner), but yes, I do think some of it gets far too carried away and broad statements are being made.

Tammy (proudly owns a parti colored Yorkie that can hear the treat package being opened from a mile away...not a joke, it's the truth).

LOL....but I'm not laughing cause Tammy isn't making a joke.

[QUOTE=TammyJM;2448329]Since you quoted what I wrote, it's pretty safe to assume that you are talking about me...you don't have to write, "some of you"....I don't mind if you say that you are referring to my post.

As for making this into a joke...obviously, I do not think of it as being funny (since I am a parti owner), but yes, I do think some of it gets far too carried away and broad statements are being made.

Tammy (proudly owns a parti colored Yorkie that can hear the treat package being opened from a mile away...not a joke, it's the truth).[/QUOTE]


Yep...my guys can see and hear just fine too. :D

My three Biewers and my parti yorkie have no problem hearing the treat bags or anything else for that matter.

Usually when there is a hearing or sight problem in an extreme white pie-bald...there will be one or both blue eyes. They will in most cases have extreme white faces, and white ears as well.

I raised and bred parti American Cocker's for over 15 years...and never had a parti pup with deafness or sight problems. In fact...I had only heard of one parti American cocker spaniel having hearing problems, and she was an extreme white (no merle) and had one blue eye.

No some do not breed the white boxers, however I have seen one reputable breeder do this about 10 years back in AL. This actually made me sick to know. She breed two flashly boxers together on purpose to produce 4 white puppies, and the rest normal color. I asked why would she do this. Her words it is better to put two flashy dogs together to get the show coat and take the risk with getting a few whites............she sold the whites one at 1500 each with two going full registration to another nice breeding program that was doing some study within her program.

Julie

At this time, there has been no incidence that the parti gene causes deafness in our yorkies (though there are reported cases of inherited deafness in traditional colored yorkies). Parti yorkies have been breeding for over 10 years and some breeders have 5+ generations of parti lines. There are many nearly white and some completely white parti yorkies and we've still heard of no deafness in those dogs. There are numerous breeds of parti parti colored and solid white dogs that do not have high instances of hearing loss due to their coloring and at this point we don't see a problem in our parti yorkies.

As a responsible breeder, if we do find that deafness is a result of the parti coloring in our yorkies (which at this point it is not a problem), than we would/should do as any other responsible breeder would do if there were any other congenital/inherited problems showing up in lines. At this point, since there is no issues with coat color and deafness, I am more concerned about avoiding the health issues that are already in the yorkie makeup - Liver Shunt, Legg-Calve-Perthes Disease, Patellar Luxation, Tracheal & Retinal Dysplasia among other things.

When I was younger, I worried about everything (to the point of ulcers) and my mother use to tell me, "Don't play the 'What If' game." If we all played that game, there wouldn't even be a yorkie breed because we would have stopped breeding them at the first signs of liver shunt or any of the other various health problems that we are seeing in our dogs today.

This thread has gotten much better in that it has stepped away from the personal assaults. For that I am glad, not only for the primary posters but for the others that read this and get an idea of what we are about.

I have gotten so much information from this thread however one thing that I have pulled out of it is how much many of us truly believe (and I'm trying to figure out the best way to word this so I don't offend) the high ethics of breeders everywhere. Most talk a good game and I believe, have EXTREMELY HIGH INTENTIONS. I know this because I bred Min Schzs for many, MANY years. "Breeding is done to better the standards. Breeding for the good of the line. Breeding to strengthen. Breeding for health." Breeding, etc. etc. etc. If every breeder really was doing that then pups would NOT be placed until they are neutered or spayed. Trust me, it's not cheap but I have done it before but then again, we aren't in it for the money, right? That responsible breeder would STOP an inferior line for potential breeding. We can say we register them "limited" but that little word does NOT stop them from being bred. It's the equivalent of a piece of paper with a restraining order that you can through at your attacker. It does no good. There are some that breed that could give a rat's keister about registration. They are in it for the money. ISN'T THAT the best way to stop those puppy mills and BYBs?

We eare very open to discovering the truth, but are certainloy not goi9ng to take everything some nay sayers report to be the truth.

Rest assured that if we start getting deaf puppies, we will change our breeding practices. here is not much of a market for deaf dogs. And seeing as we are not showing them, there would be no incentive to continue to breed a pair that produced deaf puppies.