Posts 301 and 320.

Here is one of the graphs. We now have haplotype analysis' and much more. If people were more interested in the truth we could be working together and sharing knowledge to improve the breed.

We did have a lot of the information up on our site at one time.

:thumbup:Thank you for posting this Sue. It was very interesting to see some actual results from this test. We keep hearing that hundreds of Biewers have been tested, but have never seen any tests results.

Did he call you or are these email conversations? Who are the parents of the dog you had tested? Since I have the same lines as some of the BTCA members I picked from the list that you posted.
How many dogs have you had tested? Enough to satisfy my curiosity.
Did he show you the group/cluster of dogs that your girl was in? No
Did you ask him if there was a signature for the Biewer? The biewer falls in the Yorkshire signature. Sorry thought I explained that.

Did you ask him if there were a breed signature for the Biewer, would your dog would have tested differently? They are testing per Mr. Neale as a Yorkshire
The results said significant amounts of Yorkshire and trace amounts of other breeds. I tested as a purebred. From my results I posted where other breeds would have been reported I have dash marks. I also confirmed this with Mr. Neale.
So now is the Mars test reliable? I never said they were. Just that I tested.
Do you have Neale's ph#?

Did Mars prepare this graph from the testing done with their lab?

You are welcome. Had to see what the fuss was about. I know people had asked to see some results we were told to test so I did!! :D

Sue, I ask who the parents were of the dog you had tested I didn't ask about your curiosity.

You obviously did not understand him, because he would not say that the Biewer falls under the Yorkshire signature. He would have told you that the Biewer is most closely related to the Yorkshire.

Why don't you share the results of the other dogs you had tested, aren't they just as important?

You're kidding aren't you?

Can you please explain the values for the graph?

Biewer History has stated that the Biewers had been breeding and showing Yorkies for 20 years when they produced the first tri colored pup.
They continued to breed for this particular color combination for years.

Are you saying the Biewers.. were breeding in other breeds?

Or are you saying unscrupulous breeders after the Biewers,
over the years may have mixed in other breeds?
If your suggesting the latter....... that would be the case with many many breeds.

The BTCA clubs history page.. suggest the same ,the offspring was produced from two of the Biewers, Prized Yorkshire Terriers.

And as for you contacting anybody back then... your offer was to help arrange testing with Mars.
You ended your letter with
" if you have any questions, feel free to contact anyone of the board members"

However, I don't see how that has anything to do with the thread or discussion :rolleyes:

Sorry to keep butting into this squabble that has no end in sight.....but as someone trying to learn more I am really not gathering information that would sway my original beliefs regarding the breed.
Where/what are the facts? We hear alot but see much less.
I would be interested in finding out where tests have been conducted. Labs normally use some sort of letterhead that provides contact information. Perhaps "all" sides could go in together and establish a panel of experts to decipher the information gathered. Then everyone would be on the same page. Word of mouth tends to water down the reliability of information shared and it also tends to only bring out the part of the information the interested party wants to share.
I have the software necessary that we could easily have a webcast with speakers for all to enjoy and hear simultaneously without having to leave their home. this way, all the test could be seen while the expert educates all of us. I would willingly share my PC to facilitate a "learning" experience that I use for large group meetings as a means of bringing all sides together to hear facts by those that are professionals in their field. Is this a possibility? This is the only way I know of to finally throw the egg in the direction it was meant to go......., whichever side that might be.

Sue, you need to remember that we have dogs from your lines that have been tested. We know what is in your lines.
I don't understand why Dr. Neale F. decided not to share the entire case study with you but maybe he felt that it is privilaged information at this time.
You have to remember that Dr. Cynthia Fuller is a Phd. in genetics and was able to interpret their studies with us and Dr. Neale F. and one of his lab project analysts. This was done over two conference calls with Dr. Paul J. and then two with Dr. Neale F.
We could understand why you might be confused as to what the tests mean if you are only testing one or two dogs.
And yes there is a way for them to tell if it is a European or American Yorkie.

If the BBCI and BYTNC feel that this is a Yorkshire Terrier, then why are you guys petitioning UKC, and AKC for breed acceptance?
Also, ARBA until they accepted the BTCA.

What are you wanting to know? It shows the Biewer Terriers in a group all by themselves. If they had the same genetic make-up of a Yorkshire Terrier they would have been in the cluster of pink dots. If they were mutts, they would have been all over the board, not in a cluster.

I am not a member of either but would assume they have done so for similar reasons that you are.
next question-I understand you show as Biewer Terrier through ARBA, don't you also show with IABCA and NAKC as Biewer? Are the titles you win from IABCA or NAKC valid since the breed is listed differently and I would assume a different standard than what you have?

We feel we have a genetically separate breed, not a Yorkshire Terrier with a recessive piebald gene. The others don't feel that way so why are they submitting?

I went to one NACK show and probably won't go again. The Judges with IABCA get the standard wherever they feel like it. They are suppose to be using the standard that Mrs. Biewer signed for us, which is almost identical to ours. Our Championship titles are issued to Biewer Terriers as the UCI has recognized our club as parent club for the Biewer Terrier.

from the MARS site:

Will WISDOM Panel™ MX mixed-breed analysis test for purebred dogs?
No. Mars Veterinary's current focus is the development of a state-of-the-art mixed-breed genetic identification test for dogs. Mars Veterinary has completed over 19 million genetic marker analyses and has typed over 13,000 dogs from the American Kennel Club (AKC) registered purebred dogs as well as mixed-breed dogs. This process gave Mars Veterinary the ability to distinguish between a purebred and a mixed-breed dog as well as the capability of identifying breeds present within a mixed-breed dog.

However, in order to identify a dog as an official or registered purebred, the DNA collection, analysis and development of the test would be much different. A purebred is defined as a canine that is bred from members of a specific or registered breed over many generations. Validation of purebreds


Why can't this test detect purebreds? Is Mars Veterinary worried about lawsuits?
The WISDOM Panel™ MX test was designed to determine the breed makeup of mixed-breed dogs. Its development involved the analyses of more than 19 million DNA markers from more than 13,000 purebred and mixed-breed dogs to best tell breeds in a mixed-breed dog apart.

In order to determine if a dog is a purebred, Mars Veterinary would ideally need DNA samples that cover all family lines for each breed of purebred dog. But since their focus was the development of a test capable of accurately determining the breeds in a mixed-breed dog, they did not focus on collecting such a catalogue of purebred dog DNA samples.

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Can this test be used by regulatory/animal control officials to determine whether breeds are legislated or banned in a particular community?
The WISDOM Panel™ MX is designed and intended to be used solely to identify the genetic history of a mixed-breed dog and no other purpose is authorized or permitted.

The WISDOM Panel™ MX is not intended to predict behavior in any particular dog. Each dog is unique and its physical and behavioral traits will be the result of multiple factors, including: genetics, training, handling and environment.

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Can shelters use this test to determine which dogs may be the least "adoptable", thereby putting certain dogs more at risk for euthanasia?
The WISDOM Panel™ MX is designed and intended to be used solely to identify the genetic history of a mixed-breed dog and no other purpose is authorized or permitted.

The WISDOM Panel™ MX is not intended to predict behavior in any particular dog. Each dog is unique and its physical and behavioral traits will be the result of multiple factors, including: genetics, training, handling and environment.

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*Hansen TV, et al. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2007;16:2072-2076, Swanson SM, et al. J Child Adolesc Psychopharmacol. 2007;17:635-646.

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The iabca uses the standard that the UCI has told them to use at this time. It is not the standard that Mrs. Biewer signed for you. Yes a new judge printed out ARBA's standard by mistake one time this year and they were also handed the BTCA standard (plus BTCA flyers and pens) by you (Gayle) this year in Orlando which were pulled out of the ring. Other then that they have gone by the standard that UCI has told them to use. This is the FCI Yorkshire Terrier standard with a color variation allowment. I have a copy if anyone would like to see it.

Yes your standard is "almost" indentical. The problem is I don't agree to the changes you made. Why allow wider set ears? Why allow a two color face? Just to name a couple.

Good point.

Yes I believe that you do also. thank you.

Yes we parti breeders also have pure bred yorkies, with documantation form the AKC.

The Biewer history is out there for everyone to read. The Germany registries allowed them to be a separate breed.

If they arenot Purebred yorkies than what are they? where did they come from. They didn't all of a sudden just appear, they had to have a founding set of parents. What were those parents if not Yorkies? Who were the parents, who were the founders, what kennel developed them if not the Biewers? and why are you on a yorkie forum if you don't own a yorkie?

I'd like to see them. I believe a yorkie by any other name is still a yorkie. Or you can take Yorkie out of the name but you can 't take the dog out of the breed.

A pure bred what? if not a yorkie than what dogs were used to develope the breed, who were the founders if not the biewers. why would the Beiwers give them the name Biewer yorkies if they were not yorkies.

Yes that is what we all thought, but Pruett has a new story. apparently she has a mixed breed that she is trying to pass off as a Biewer.

Wow and they think we parti breeders are mixed up. LOL At least we all agree on the fact that our dogs are yorkies.

Oh you are soooooooooooo wrong. Many breeds have become separate breeds due to a color variation. When you watch the big dog shows they will tell you this breed was developed from that breed etc. some breeds became a separate breed because the ers were down instead of up.

Years ago they allowed that.

I believe that your particular line of biewer might have a different makeup from other biewers, but if that is true than it is because someone mixed in a different breed. therefore you have a mixed breed dog.

Before you can go off and start a different breed, you have to know when were and how they were developed.

WOW Diana ... I looked at my pedigrees and guess what all mine still say Biewer Yorkshire Terrier a la Pom Pon even the one on my 7 yr old ... not one says biewer terrier.

BTW your new babies are to die for :)

all mean people go on ignore best way to deal with em ... ;)

:thumbup::thumbup:

I believe that some Biewers are testing different than others, I also believe that some partis will test different than others. There are some people out there that are mxing dogs and calling them parti colored torkies, nd I am guessing the smae thing happened to the Biewers.

So our best guess is to go with what we know until someone can come up with new facts.

and what we know is that the breed started out as purebred yorkies.

Gayole, I believe that your dog could be testing different than other yorkies and other biewers. But that only proves that your particular line has something else mixed in. so where did it come from.