Not sure when the last time you talk to any of the Scientist at MARS was, but maybe you would like to try them again. Specifically ask for info about the Biewer Terrier.

I don't understand what is so hard to figure out about how the testing is done with the Wisdom Panel. Do you think they went out and gathered the DNA from thousands of mutts?????
I believe they state they have the genetic profile of 153 purebred dogs.

WISDOM Panel

Not sure what you're looking for here. Are you asking a question?

What did I say about the Parti Yorkie? I just asked how much you think they will be worth when the Biewer Terrier is accepted and if you would test yours.

As far as research goes, I would have to say I have more than likely did more research than most.

I have to agree with Carl Yochum when he says that the Parti Yorkie should look exactly like a Yorkie except the coloring. Do you think they look exactly like Yorkies?

Not only does the Wisdom test say it's not a test for purebred dogs (why will it give false readings if you test a purebred), but doesn't it only test back accurately for 3 (?) generations? Most of the Nikko line dogs have 4-5 or more generations back to Nikkos Rolls Royce Ashley where the gene started showing (and wasn't kept in the closet any longer).

I agree that a parti yorkie should look just like a yorkie except for color, that's what I am striving for and that's what all breeders should strive for.
I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but I believe a parti yorkie can and should look like a yorkie - here's one of my boys. I also believe a traditional yorkie should look like a yorkie :-)

Mars has said it can not tell if any other breed in the Biewer Terrier. They have found a genetic difference in the Biewers tested but can not tell if it is just a color gene (i.e. piebald gene) making the difference. I could easily run out and get my Biewer's tested but at this point until they tell me they can 100% tell me what is the point of waisting money.

Dear Ms. Miller,

Mars Veterinary has detected using both the Wisdom Panel MX test, and other scientific analysis that all the Biewer Terriers submitted to us for testing had a similar, but distinct, genetic signature to the Purebred Yorkshire Terriers we have tested. It is not possible for us to definitively state with current knowledge and technology what (if any) other breeds than Yorkshire Terrier were present in the foundation of the Biewer terriers pedigrees and what gene (or genes) are causing the distinctive coloration seen in the Biewer terriers. All we can say is that Biewer Terriers share closest genetic similarity to Yorkshire Terriers than they do to any other breed that the Wisdom Panel can detect. The question of which dogs founded the Biewer Terrier pedigree is more a question for the Biewer Terrier founder breeders. All we can state is that all Biewer Terriers tested with Wisdom Panel MX contain a significant amount of signature match to the Yorkshire Terrier, often with minor matches to other breeds including in some dogs - Japanese Chin and Maltese breed signatures amongst others.

It is clearly a matter for the various global Kennel Clubs and Breed clubs to determine what is and isn't a breed in their eyes, and also to draw up the breed standards and qualifying measures to determine which individual dogs are considered to be members of breeds.

I hope that I have gone some way to answering your questions. If you have any more, or would like further information, then please feel free to reply directly to me or to get in touch with our customer care team at customercare@marsveterinary.com or 888-K9 PET TEST (1-888-597-3883).

Regards,
Neale Fretwell
Mars Veterinary

Here is part of another email that was sent before this one.

What this means for your dogs is that, if taken now, the results of the Wisdom Panel MX test will predominantly be reported as Yorkshire Terrier with elements of other minor or trace breeds. At the present time, we do not recommend the test as an arbiter of the purity of any given pedigree.

The converstations I've had with them and the information I have recieved have all been within recent months. It's something I found interesting and wanted to learn more about. Anytime it is questioned here, it infuriates the masses who hold a vested interest in it. After a while, trying to decipher one-sided answers that sound more like riddles gets old, so I decided to seek an unbiased explanation and went directly to the source for myself. Anyone can do the same and I would urge anyone curious to do just that.

Well I don't believe I have to prove anything to anyone, at this point anyway. I just thought Pruett might enlighten me on to what I COULD prove with a test.

I was answering your question. "Who said it didn't show any yorkshire terrier"

I do have a question, why is it that partis tend to cost more than biewers? The partis to me tend to have too much white on them, and I hardly ever see any black. I've seen them going for like $5000. As far as gayle pruett, believe me, she knows her stuff! I have met Gayle and she is one of the smartest/sweetest women, I've ever met.

If you have nothing against the partis, and you know absolutely nothing about me or my partis, why are you challenging me to have mine tested?

Do mine look like yorkies? What kind of a question is that? Mine not only look like yorkies, they ARE yorkies.

And as far as their worth. What is that all about? Why does it matter to you what my dogs are worth?

When debating an issue it is best to stick to the issue and not start challengig people personally.

What is the issue anyway?

I know this was for Gayle, but, that dog in the avatar does NOT look like a yorkie to me.

I'm not sure why the partis cost more. My guess is because they are AKC and Biewers are not. Maybe it's a matter of supply and demand. Perhaps more people prefer the looks or more people want them to be AKC.

Maybe it's because the Biewer breeders appear to be unclear as to what breed of dog they have. some say yorkie, some say not yorkie. well if not yorkie then what are they? Where did they come from? And if they are not yorkie how can they mate them to yorkies?

I'm very confused on the Biewer thing. at least us parti breeders are clear on what the partis are, even if no one else is.

There are two dogs in the avatar. what is it about them that does not look yorkie? The face is yorkie, the ears are yorkie, the coat is yorkie, their color breaks like a yorkie.

Excuse me, but, I have 2 biewers, the first one I question, but, I got him from a woman I would NEVER recommend. The last one I got was from a fantastic breeder, and she is the most beautiful little pup I have ever seen, and not to be mean, but, I don't like the looks of the partis, and that's why I can't figure out why they cost so much more.. nothing to do with AKC, as if they are parti yorkies, then, they should cost less than a yorkie, as they can't be shown, etc(you know the "rare" thing) that I don't fall for. To me, the biewer should cost a lot more than the parti, as they are recongized as a breed of their own now

Not sure what the Excuse Me is for. You asked me a question I gave you my opinion. If you don't like the looks of the parti, then you don't like them. I've seen some ugly traditionals and some ugly partis and some ugly Biewers. But I've also seen beautiful one is all categories.

As for why people are willing to pay more, for myself, it was the AKC issue because I wanted to breed them and people want AKC. As for the "rare", I've never thought of them as "rare" just unusual and beautiful.

As for the Biewers being recognized as a breed of their own. That is true, but not by the AKC.

And FYI Partis can be shown in other registries just like the Biewers, just not AKc.

So, why would someone pay more for an AKC when it states right on their site that partis are a fault?:confused: I wouldn't pay more for an AKC if they had a fault

So in other words you are telling me that the Biewer is nothing more than a Parti Yorkie?

You're never going to get a 100% answer for anything. Don't you realize that they have to word things very carefully because this world is SUE CRAZY. People would be dragging them into court every time they turned around if they said someone's dog wasn't a purebred.

Interpret as you like, I interpret your red highlighted area as saying, they don't know what breeds were used in the foundation meaning the beginning. Some people see a half empty glass of water, where others see it as half full.

It says there are other elements in the breed, which means it is not a purebred Yorkie. The other elements didn't get there just because the BTCA said so.

And why would you get a false reading when testing a purebred? Who in the heck came up with that? We tested numerous purebreds and guess what? They all came back PUREBREDS and were in the cluster with there own PUREBRED group.

Do you guys require DNA profiling on all breeding dogs?

Well that is your opinion. for me the AKC was an important issue. and most people that ask about the partis ask if they are AKC. They fell more confident that they are pure bred.

As for parti color being considered a fault, The YTCA puts the Biewers in the same category, they are wrong colored yorkies.

No we don't

I'm confused by this statement, what did you mean?

"And if they are not yorkie how can they mate them to yorkies?"

What she posted was from the people who do the testing. She didn't make it up. and yes that is what I get from the letter, is that they are yorkshire terriers, which, according to the Biewers that developed the breed, is what they are.

I find it very amusing that people accuse us parti breeders of trying to change the breed standard, and "some of you" biewer breeders are trying to change the entire breed, just by saying that the "history" is all a lie.

We are not trying to discredit the "history" of the yorkshire terrier, we are using what history we can find, to prove that the piebald gene has always been there.

At least I know where my dogs came from and who their ancestors are.

In previous posts, someone sfaid that they were not allowed to mate biewers to "splitters". and another person corrected them and say they could use "splitters" which are traditional colored yorkshiers that carry the piebald gene.

So if they are NO yorkies, how can you mate them with yorkies that carry the piebald gene and still have a purebred Biewer. Unless the biewer is a yorkie.

Interesting point. It makes me wonder what the answer to this question would have been before the Wisdom panel existed....hmmm...

So then they state the results are not 100% accurate or that they are not designed for purebreds, not because that is actually the case, but ONLY because they are afraid of being involved in a law suits? :confused: Riiiight....:p

Well then it seems the confusion over the situation is clear. It's not a matter of fact, it's a matter of how everyone chooses to interpret the facts they are given. You have clearly chosen to interpret them as you see fit and others have done the same. That being the case, why is it so darn hard to state what you believe, allow others to do the same, and then leave it open for anyone interested to take what they can from the responses and make their own conclusion. Why does is always result in a challenge to prove knowledge or creditials? Is it really neccesarry for others to belittle anyone that has a different opinion on the matter? Sadly THAT is what has driven many away from becoming more educated on Biewers. :( Many want to learn, but heaven forbid they should ask or question anything. They'd meet less resistance if they tried to murder the Pope! :p

That is why again, I urge anyone interested in this particular aspect/theory/fact/argument to contact the company directly themselves and draw their conclusions from that. The company itself is going to be able to give the most accurate and unbiased information--somthing that will most likely never be possible here.

What I really find amusing is, when I first joined YT, there were threads about the Biewer not being a purebred yorkie, and the biewer people argued that they were prebred yorkies. Now the argument has gone the other way and SOME biewer breeders are trying to prove that they are NOT yorkies.

At least us parti breeders know that we have yorkies.

What I would like to know is if they are not yorkies, what are they were did they come from, what breeds were used to create them and what about the Biewer family that developed them.

Is this same dispute going on in Germany, or is this just some ploy by a handful of breeders to get the AKC to accept them.

Did you read post 274?

Well you pretty much covered it all. I would just add one more question. If the test is inconclusive, what good is it. I think we need to wait a while until they themselves are more confident in their test reslts before we put much faith in them.

Here is some very interesting information regarding the piebald gene showing up in another breed. The breeder went to UC Davis for answers.I think it's a very interesting read.

Phenom Shepherds - Genetic Panda Info

Yes I read that post. Not sure what part of it you are referring to and which question is answered by that post.

You had asked:
4lilyorks says that Biewers were tested and were found to have minor matches to other breeds including in some dogs - Japanese Chin and Maltese breed signatures amongst others.

OK so what is the story, who, when, where. If the Biewer's did not start the breed, from yorkies. then who did and what dogs. Which kennel did the first registered Biewers come from.