Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 2430249)

You had asked:


4lilyorks says that Biewers were tested and were found to have minor matches to other breeds including in some dogs - Japanese Chin and Maltese breed signatures amongst others.

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2430140)

What I really find amusing is, when I first joined YT, there were threads about the Biewer not being a purebred yorkie, and the biewer people argued that they were prebred yorkies. Now the argument has gone the other way and SOME biewer breeders are trying to prove that they are NOT yorkies.

At least us parti breeders know that we have yorkies.

What I would like to know is if they are not yorkies, what are they were did they come from, what breeds were used to create them and what about the Biewer family that developed them.

Is this same dispute going on in Germany, or is this just some ploy by a handful of breeders to get the AKC to accept them.

Originally Posted by Pruett (Post 2428708)

Who says the history is correct? We have got documentation on various breeders in Germany that have forged registrations, and mixed Maltese with yorkies.
I can tell you from my experience in life and that is "people lie" science doesn't.
How much do you think a parti Yorkie is going to be worth when AKC accepts the Biewer Terrier?

Originally Posted by TeahsPet (Post 2430383)

Okay, so which is it? Either 'science doesn't lie' or its the 'cups half full'?

If science doesn't lie, and the MARS test is valid for testing Biewers (or other purebred dogs), then MARS would not be afraid of lawsuits and would happily take peoples money to have their dogs tested.

Gayle, I think you are correct in stating the 'cups half full' theory in that some people have the ability to interpret just about anything in a way that is advantageous to their own personal needs/desires. :rolleyes:

I personally love my furbabies as members of my family and am not concerned about their 'worth' in terms of dollar figures. My babies give more to me more than any amount of money ever could. My dedication to the breed is out of love and admiration...not motivated by greed, or some higher sense of self worth.

Originally Posted by TammyJM (Post 1638721)

It's a fault based on what YTCA and the show world have decided. The standard that is so preached at us that have chosen to breed "off colors", was created by a group of people.....this standard does not change genetics. You do realize that this "standard" has changed throughout the years,right?? Why was that okay then but not now? Why is okay that the Yorkie is nothing like how the breed originated....because a group have now defined what THEY say the Yorkie should be?

I am a future breeder of the parti color and I will always be a person that is reputable. I, however, do not see this color as a fault....I see it as genetics at it's finest.

Tammy

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 2430145)

Did you read post 274?

Originally Posted by Breny (Post 2442090)

Do you have a Biewer or a parti?

Originally Posted by 4lilyorks (Post 2430319)

Yes this is what Mars said but they also said they can't tell if any other dog was mixed in or if it is a color gene they picked up. Some dogs tested to have Bassett Hound in them also to name another breed. How many different dogs were mixed in to get the Biewer that looks like a Yorkie. Also there are differences found in the genes of a European Yorkie and an American Yorkie so it only makes sense that it would show a difference if a dog carries the piebald gene versus one that is not a carrier.

I would also like to know if there is a certain mix now that is concidered a Biewer Terrier or if all mixes are accepted. What happens if a Biewer is tested and it comes out pure Yorkshire is that not a Biewer Terrier? Is both a Yorkie/Maltese and a Yorkie/Japanese Chin accepted in the registery?

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2442809)

We still have not had this question answered. I am curious as well as to how this would work. Are they all considered Biewers? Or is there one particular mix that is considered a Biewer?

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer (Post 2442881)

I can't speak for those few who feel that what they have they have decided to call Biewer Terriers, but the rest of us believe we have a pure bred dog, not a mix, that came from purebred Yorkshire Terriers.

-Diana :animal-pa

Originally Posted by Pruett (Post 2443620)

What club do you belong to and who are the rest of you?

Since you have just said that you have purebred Yorkshire Terrier, then why are you calling them Biewers?
Don't the Parti-Yorkie breeders say they have purebred Yorkshire Terriers?

So what do you have, a purebred Yorkshire Terrier, or a purebred Biewer Yorkshire Terrier? It's one or the other.

Originally Posted by Pruett (Post 2443620)

What club do you belong to and who are the rest of you?

Since you have just said that you have purebred Yorkshire Terrier, then why are you calling them Biewers?
Don't the Parti-Yorkie breeders say they have purebred Yorkshire Terriers?

So what do you have, a purebred Yorkshire Terrier, or a purebred Biewer Yorkshire Terrier? It's one or the other.

Originally Posted by Pruett (Post 2443620)

What club do you belong to and who are the rest of you?

Since you have just said that you have purebred Yorkshire Terrier, then why are you calling them Biewers?
Don't the Parti-Yorkie breeders say they have purebred Yorkshire Terriers?

So what do you have, a purebred Yorkshire Terrier, or a purebred Biewer Yorkshire Terrier? It's one or the other.

Originally Posted by 4lilyorks (Post 2443651)

So are you saying there can not be color variations of a breed. Are you saying a Biewer can not be a purebred yorkie? What about breeds with multiple colors such as Dalmatians, Dachshunds, Labs, Great Dane, etc. Is only one color combination a purebred and the others are a mixed breed?

Originally Posted by Pruett (Post 2443688)

What are you talking about?? Who ever said color combinations determine a dogs purebred status?

Do the Dalmatians, Dachshunds, Labs, Great Dane, etc. have new names to go with their color variations?
Does their new color now make them a completely separate purebred?

The Biewer Terrier is not a mix breed it is a purebred. Read up on how purebreds have been developed in the past.

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer (Post 2443674)

:animal-pa


Well, Thank you for asking Gayle, although you already know the answer to that question as I have the same exact breed that you do, I just had no desire or motivation to go off and change their name .. I have some Beautiful Biewer Yorkshire Terrier ala Pom Pon's.. actually, I have a lovely new litter and I'd be happy to post them if you'd like to see them.

-Diana :animal-pa

Originally Posted by Pruett (Post 2443688)

What are you talking about?? Who ever said color combinations determine a dogs purebred status?

Do the Dalmatians, Dachshunds, Labs, Great Dane, etc. have new names to go with their color variations?
Does their new color now make them a completely separate purebred?

The Biewer Terrier is not a mix breed it is a purebred. Read up on how purebreds have been developed in the past.

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer (Post 2443698)

DING DING DING
That's true, the Biewer terrier is not a mix breed, it is a purebred and it's called a Biewer Yorkshire Terrier ala Pom Pon. The Biewer Terrier was not developed, you took the Biewer Yorkie and changed the named to Biewer Terrier.. that's it.. you still have the same dogs that you had two years ago that you were calling Biewer Yorkshire Terriers and changed ONLY the name.. you did not develope a breed.. if the Biewer is indeed a seperate breed, it was that long before the Biewer Terrier name was manufactured.

Diana :animal-pa

Originally Posted by Pruett (Post 2443738)

You're wrong. You can believe what you want, but the facts are the Yorkshire Terrier did not turn into a purebred because of a recessive piebald gene. No breed on Earth becomes a separate breed because of a color variation.

We dropped the Yorkshire in Aug of 2006 when the club reorganized AND because we were able to prove they weren't purebred Yorkies, we didn't manufacture the name. But you think its ok for those that you referred to as "the rest of us" to change the name to Biewer a la Pom Pon???

Originally Posted by 4lilyorks (Post 2429907)

Mars has said it can not tell if any other breed in the Biewer Terrier. They have found a genetic difference in the Biewers tested but can not tell if it is just a color gene (i.e. piebald gene) making the difference. I could easily run out and get my Biewer's tested but at this point until they tell me they can 100% tell me what is the point of waisting money.

Dear Ms. Miller,

Mars Veterinary has detected using both the Wisdom Panel MX test, and other scientific analysis that all the Biewer Terriers submitted to us for testing had a similar, but distinct, genetic signature to the Purebred Yorkshire Terriers we have tested. It is not possible for us to definitively state with current knowledge and technology what (if any) other breeds than Yorkshire Terrier were present in the foundation of the Biewer terriers pedigrees and what gene (or genes) are causing the distinctive coloration seen in the Biewer terriers. All we can say is that Biewer Terriers share closest genetic similarity to Yorkshire Terriers than they do to any other breed that the Wisdom Panel can detect. The question of which dogs founded the Biewer Terrier pedigree is more a question for the Biewer Terrier founder breeders. All we can state is that all Biewer Terriers tested with Wisdom Panel MX contain a significant amount of signature match to the Yorkshire Terrier, often with minor matches to other breeds including in some dogs - Japanese Chin and Maltese breed signatures amongst others.

It is clearly a matter for the various global Kennel Clubs and Breed clubs to determine what is and isn't a breed in their eyes, and also to draw up the breed standards and qualifying measures to determine which individual dogs are considered to be members of breeds.

I hope that I have gone some way to answering your questions. If you have any more, or would like further information, then please feel free to reply directly to me or to get in touch with our customer care team at customercare@marsveterinary.com or 888-K9 PET TEST (1-888-597-3883).

Regards,
Neale Fretwell
Mars Veterinary

Here is part of another email that was sent before this one.

What this means for your dogs is that, if taken now, the results of the Wisdom Panel MX test will predominantly be reported as Yorkshire Terrier with elements of other minor or trace breeds. At the present time, we do not recommend the test as an arbiter of the purity of any given pedigree.

Originally Posted by EnchantedToi (Post 2443775)

Thank you Sue.. for posting your results.
It's so nice too see the information from Mars being posted.. both the letter and your results will give others researching a little more insight.:)

.............. if the First Biewer didnt come from Gertrude and Werners kennel... where did it come from?

Is it possible that the parents that produced this first litter had something else in its mix? well of course its possible.But without the dna being done on the original dogs or the first litter we may never know.

We all know that the pedigree is only as honest as the person writing it... We know that the offspring from the Biewer's mating produced these tri colored babies.

Originally Posted by Snow Yorkies (Post 2443754)

I had the pleasure of speaking to Mr. Neale when my results finally came back. He stated to me that the Biewers that have been tested were Yorkshire Terriers. That there is couple signatures for the Yorkshire. There is an American, European and now the Biewer. Since in my test it said it had significant Yorkshire Terrier and no other breeds listed I questioned this and he explained to me that I had a Yorkshire Terrier. He also explained to me that many breeds they are testing has several signatures. The lab for instance has 5. I am posting a link for you to see my test results on one of my girls. No one has ever bothered to share their results, so let me be the first. Mr. Neale was very nice in explaining all of this to me and I will be more than happy to get you in contact with him if you are interested, just pm me for the information. Here is the link to my website to see my results BiewerYorkieGirls

Originally Posted by EnchantedToi (Post 2443775)

Thank you Sue.. for posting your results.
It's so nice too see the information from Mars being posted.. both the letter and your results will give others researching a little more insight.:)

.............. if the First Biewer didnt come from Gertrude and Werners kennel... where did it come from?

Is it possible that the parents that produced this first litter had something else in its mix? well of course its possible.But without the dna being done on the original dogs or the first litter we may never know.

We all know that the pedigree is only as honest as the person writing it... We know that the offspring from the Biewer's mating produced these tri colored babies.

Originally Posted by 4lilyorks (Post 2443800)

Can we see some of the results from dogs you have had tested Gayle? Do you have a test from a purebred yorkie so we can see the difference?

Can you go back and answer any of my previous questions?