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Old 01-17-2009, 01:12 PM   #1
Wee Winston Wiggles
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Default Rosemary extract and seizures

Does any one care to share information regarding rosemary extract in dog food and treats as a seizure trigger?
Are there other known or suspected seizure triggers that I should be aware of?
Also, is there any known correlation between rosemary extract and glucose/blood sugar levels.
I am trying to gather this information so I can talk to Winston's vet about it.
Thank you in advance for any and all information I may receive.
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Old 01-17-2009, 01:30 PM   #2
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I have heard about the connection between rosemary and seizures but I'm not sure that a reliable source is relaying it. The same goes for nutmeg. Maybe someone from YT could contact the ASPCA about this. They seem to be the authority on toxic food and pets.
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Old 01-17-2009, 01:35 PM   #3
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Kathy...go spend some time reading around this website:

Canine epilepsy and diseases that cause seizures in dogs

Yes, there is a connection with rosemary and seizures according to that site. You can search from the top of the page for rosemary and it will bring up any of the articles and info they have on it. There is so much to learn on that site...it's amazing.

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Old 01-17-2009, 01:40 PM   #4
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Yes, there is a link between rosemary and seizures. If you start reading labels, it is amazing how many dog food products contain rosemary, including Petzlife. :

PetzLife Products Inc - Products For a Healthier Pet
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Old 01-17-2009, 03:51 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ellie May View Post
I have heard about the connection between rosemary and seizures but I'm not sure that a reliable source is relaying it. The same goes for nutmeg. Maybe someone from YT could contact the ASPCA about this. They seem to be the authority on toxic food and pets.
Hmmm, nutmeg too? I've been reading a lot and have not seen mention of this, although I do believe nutmeg is related to glucose levels. Thanks for your input. May have to contact the ASPCA...it's a thought.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:12 PM   #6
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Kathy...go spend some time reading around this website:

Canine epilepsy and diseases that cause seizures in dogs

Yes, there is a connection with rosemary and seizures according to that site. You can search from the top of the page for rosemary and it will bring up any of the articles and info they have on it. There is so much to learn on that site...it's amazing.
Yes, I have spent a great portion of my day today on that very website...so much to learn...and yes I do see the connection. Just wondered if any one had any personal experience with "Rosemary" and there pets with seizures. I imagine it would be nearly impossible to prove though. How about glucose levels...I'm thinking there is a connection there as well. All the vets I have taken Winston to say it's hypoglycemic seizures not epileptic. I may have to check once again for another opinion...maybe a Neurologist instead of Internist this time.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:15 PM   #7
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Yes, there is a link between rosemary and seizures. If you start reading labels, it is amazing how many dog food products contain rosemary, including Petzlife. :

PetzLife Products Inc - Products For a Healthier Pet
I have been checking labels...it's both sad and scary at the same time.
Thanks for the information of PetzLife, I don't use it myself...but I know many that do.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:18 PM   #8
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What about your cleaning supplies? It does say on that site that Pine Sol causes seizures. Do you have laminate or wood floors that you use anything on? Are the seizures predictable as far as when they come...like so many days apart each time? Are you doing or using or doing anything that you can even remotely connect with his seizures? That might be a place to start if you can definitely rule out hypoglicemia. I believe it also says somewhere on that site that hypoglicemia can be caused from the dog not being able to process protein properly...but you might want to double check that point...it's been a while since I read about that. I read the list of chemicals that can trigger seizures and it was overwhelming...can't imagine how many things those chemicals might be in.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:26 PM   #9
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Winston is having seizures, right?
What has been ruled out and how?
What is the diagnosis?
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:59 PM   #10
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What about your cleaning supplies? It does say on that site that Pine Sol causes seizures. Do you have laminate or wood floors that you use anything on? Are the seizures predictable as far as when they come...like so many days apart each time? Are you doing or using or doing anything that you can even remotely connect with his seizures? That might be a place to start if you can definitely rule out hypoglicemia. I believe it also says somewhere on that site that hypoglicemia can be caused from the dog not being able to process protein properly...but you might want to double check that point...it's been a while since I read about that. I read the list of chemicals that can trigger seizures and it was overwhelming...can't imagine how many things those chemicals might be in.
No hard wood or laminate floors all carpet except the bathroom. I saw that about Pine Sol, but I don't use it. The only thing predictable about his seizures is the fact that they always happen on the weekends, nights or holidays...just like a baby, huh? My reasoning for this is that he is more active when we are home with him...during the work week he is confined to the kitchen and I'm sure he just sleeps 99% of the time. So while he's sleeping he is conserving energy/sugar...and it's natural for the body/liver to produce more glucose at rest...to prepare for the bodies need of sugar while awake. But comes a day when we are off work...he runs and plays, hard....that is when it happens.
From what I have read a true epileptic seizure does not last as long as Winston's do...it comes on all of a sudden, although he does try to get to me first, I give him NutriCal and within 20-30 minutes he's come out of it, and most of the time vomits. But a seizure I understand usually only last from a few seconds to a few minutes.
They do not seem to coincide with flea prevention, heartworm medicine or vaccines.
I questioned the possibility of thunderstorms, but that isn't the case either.
Winston is now 5 years old and 8 pounds, he has been having this same problem since he was 3 years old and 7 pounds. Everything points to low blood sugar, but why???
Keep the thoughts and ideas coming, I'm open to any and all suggestions.
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Old 01-17-2009, 06:58 PM   #11
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Is there a treat that he gets on the days you're home? Maybe he's just using his food up faster while he's playing. Do you make sure he takes time out for a snack and rest a little when you're home? What about taking him for a walk...maybe that would burn off some of his energy in a more constructive way.

Does he have allergies? They can cause seizures too. I don't know what you feed Winston but there is a very good diet on that site for epi dogs...maybe give it a try and see if it makes a difference in him. Otherwise a visit to a neurologist might be in order.

Oh, instead of the nutrical try the Hagendaz vanilla ice cream like they suggest on the site...it works more efficiently in their system and doesn't give the high and low that nutrical does.
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Old 01-17-2009, 07:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Ellie May View Post
Winston is having seizures, right?
What has been ruled out and how?
What is the diagnosis?
On the average these episodes happen a couple times a month...they look like a seizure to me, but he does not come out of it on his own...he only comes out of it after being given glucose, such as NutriCal or Karo syrup.
The first time this happened, I just happened to be home sick myself during the week...I rushed him to the vets, which is only a couple blocks from my house. Their first thought was heat stroke, but it was March in Illinois it was not that hot. They rushed him back and started him on IV's, the only thing they found out of the ordinary was a dangerously low glucose reading of 25. They kept him in CCU until he was able to eat on his own and his sugar didn't drop. So, then we were trying to find a reason for this, I told her there were toadstool type mushrooms in our yard, I usually try to destroy them but they pop up overnight and maybe I missed one...maybe he tried to eat one. She did some checking and found hypoglycemia was a symptom of ingesting these. So we thought that was that and I'd have to be more careful with him outside. But then the seizures continued.
Testing: Complete Chemistry
Complete Blood Count
Fecal Test
Urinalysis
Glucose Tolerance
Thyroid Profile
Bile Acid Testing
Cortisol Test
Liver Profile
Electrolyte Test
Lipid Profile
Chest X-ray
KUB-Abdomen X-ray
Ct Scan Chest
Ct scan Abdomen
I guess that's it, any suggestions?
My regular vet referred him to a vet in Internal Medicine, her suggestions were...to put him back on puppy food, frequent small feedings, 6 times a day. Check his blood sugar at home at the very first sign of a seizure (it's always low) and immediately after a seizure (most always a low normal). Possible liver biopsy for glycogen storage, which I have not done. May need hypoglycemic agent, which I have not done.
He is also on (Valium) diazepam 2.5mg twice a day. It was suggested to try Prednisone...as it has the side effect of raising ones blood sugar...but I would rather not use this if at all possible.
Insulinoma was pondered, but ruled out, due to his age at the time, breed and testing done thus far. All of the vets he has seen so far, and he's been seen by several, think it is not epileptic seizures, but hypoglycemic seizures.
So that brings us up to date on Winston...his last episode was January 10th.
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Old 01-17-2009, 09:06 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by my2boyz View Post
Is there a treat that he gets on the days you're home? Maybe he's just using his food up faster while he's playing. Do you make sure he takes time out for a snack and rest a little when you're home? What about taking him for a walk...maybe that would burn off some of his energy in a more constructive way.

Does he have allergies? They can cause seizures too. I don't know what you feed Winston but there is a very good diet on that site for epi dogs...maybe give it a try and see if it makes a difference in him. Otherwise a visit to a neurologist might be in order.

Oh, instead of the nutrical try the Hagendaz vanilla ice cream like they suggest on the site...it works more efficiently in their system and doesn't give the high and low that nutrical does.
Winston's food is the only thing I have found that he will eat consistently...and that is Science Diet. We have tried others, but he'll skip meals...which he can't do. The last one was some prescription food that was suppose to keep his sugar at a more stable level...but he hated it. Unfortunately, I have thrown it away and do not remember the name...it was something I had never heard of before. He has also tried Natural Balance and Solid Gold. Home cooking is a thought, but I'm really not a nutritionist and I fear he will not get what he needs.
There is no way that ice cream will work, he is completely seizing, he has no control and is totally unable to eat any thing, then there's the risk of aspiration too. I have to open his mouth, insert my finger and rub NutriCal on the roof of his mouth...it's the only way. The ice cream could come later, after seizing, to stabilize the sugar level I suppose. But he almost always vomits afterwards and I have a hard time getting him to eat anything then.
I remember someone told me once to give Breyers All Natural ice cream after an episode...nope, he didn't want it.
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:18 PM   #14
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Winston had another episode today, it started at 4:20 pm and lasted about 20 minutes. I'm beginning to feel so hopeless and helpless, I could just cry...
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:31 PM   #15
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Kathy...I'm sorry to hear about Winston. Maybe it's time to make an appointment with a neurologist and see if they can help.
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