Rosemary extract and seizures

[Ellie May]

This does seem really odd.
It has be something about his sugar levels or it wouldn't be low.
There must be something causing it or a reason his sugar is always down. I"ve personally never heard of anything like it. And what a list of tests that have been done.

While I'm not really recommending homecooking because I don't know if it will help or hurt the problem, you can talk to a nutritionist and the recipe would be balanced.

While the internist wants to check for certain things, if those tests came (like glycogen storage) come back abnormal, what would the diagnosis be? So he seizes until he gets sugar? And then starts coming out of it? Have you tried canned food? If SD is the only thing he will eat, that's what I'd be feeding.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

This does seem really odd.
It has be something about his sugar levels or it wouldn't be low.
There must be something causing it or a reason his sugar is always down. I"ve personally never heard of anything like it. And what a list of tests that have been done.

While I'm not really recommending homecooking because I don't know if it will help or hurt the problem, you can talk to a nutritionist and the recipe would be balanced.

While the internist wants to check for certain things, if those tests came (like glycogen storage) come back abnormal, what would the diagnosis be? So he seizes until he gets sugar? And then starts coming out of it? Have you tried canned food? If SD is the only thing he will eat, that's what I'd be feeding.

Never mind on what the diagnosis would be/what they are looking for. I think I found it.

[wemple2]

Yes I found him today under the kitchen table, in a corner, laying on his side, stiff, yet trembling...panting, drooling, eyes unable to focus, at this point he is totally helpless, he can not sit or stand, although sometimes he does manage to roll. Picked him up, rubbed NutriCal on the roof of his mouth, I find this easier and quicker then the gums, poked his little paw for a drop of blood. Wrapped him in a warm blanket and waited. His glucose level was 28...Held him and talked to him, made him feel secure until he finally comes around, still not too sure footed and shaky but able to get up and move around, took about 20 minutes.
The thing about the liver biopsy for glycogen storage disease doesn't make sense to me...if this is what he has...he would be dead by now.
Have you heard of hunting dog syndrome or white shaker dog syndrome? These sound more like what happens to him. Guess I'll just keep doing what I'm doing, try to keep him as calm and relaxed as possible, feed him often...hope and pray for the best.
Nutrition: What would be a good dog food with high carbohydrate, low protein, and low fat. What would you feed for treats? Is cornstarch okay for dogs? I've read they give this for humans with this problem. Guess I'm just grasping at straws...always searching for an answer, yet, never finding it. Why did this start at the age of 3 instead of as a puppy? I really do not think it's epilepsy. Would you consider Prednisone, as it raise glucose levels, I've always had a fear of this for personal reasons. Thanks Ellie May or are you Crystal?

[Ladymom]

Oh, dear. Poor, poor Winston.

Lady has been epileptic for nine years and what you are describing doesn't sound like an epileptic seizure. The seizure itself can lower blood sugar, but you said his BG is low before he seizes.

I would certainly not advise prednisone long term as it can cause other problems like diabetes and Cushings disease.

What do you feed him now? Lady is is also a Type I diabetic and gets insulin twice a day. Diabetics need a higher fiber diet to keep insulin levels stable. Since you have certainly been through all the tests and consulted a specialist, I think I would almost try to see if you can control his seizures with a change of diet. My first preference would be homecooked, but if that's not doable, there are a couple of commercial diets available that are high in fiber and lowfat that work well for diabetic dogs. It certainly would be worth trying to see if a high fiber diet could prevent his crashes.

Science Diet® Results

Nature's Recipe Senior Lamb Meal & Rice Recipe - Food Center - Dog - PetSmart

[Yorkieluv]

How many meals per day does Winston get or is he free-fed?

It's best if you can give several small meals per day so that you can keep his blood glucose levels stable...Free-feeding is not best for these situations, in my opinion because you cannot control how often or how much they are eating.

Prayers for Winston...this must be so hard for you..not knowing what's wrong with him...

I agree that consulting a canine nutritionist would be a good idea.

[AVERYxo]

gosh, i am so sorry!! i am not much help! but just wanted to say i hope you figure this out, soon.. we are praying for sweet lil Winston!!

[wemple2]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Oh, dear. Poor, poor Winston.

Lady has been epileptic for nine years and what you are describing doesn't sound like an epileptic seizure. The seizure itself can lower blood sugar, but you said his BG is low before he seizes.

I would certainly not advise prednisone long term as it can cause other problems like diabetes and Cushings disease.

What do you feed him now? Lady is is also a Type I diabetic and gets insulin twice a day. Diabetics need a higher fiber diet to keep insulin levels stable. Since you have certainly been through all the tests and consulted a specialist, I think I would almost try to see if you can control his seizures with a change of diet. My first preference would be homecooked, but if that's not doable, there are a couple of commercial diets available that are high in fiber and lowfat that work well for diabetic dogs. It certainly would be worth trying to see if a high fiber diet could prevent his crashes.

Science Diet® Results

Nature's Recipe Senior Lamb Meal & Rice Recipe - Food Center - Dog - PetSmart

Thanks for caring and thanks for the advise. I can't say for certain that his sugar is low before a seizure...only that it is during and still is after the seizure. The specialist recommended he eat puppy food, so that is what I feed him...but it is Science Diet, as that is the only thing he will eat consistently. I can't leave him to eat when he gets hungry enough...he will definitely have an episode.
I too have put off the Prednisone as I hate the side effects, when using it long term. The specialist also mentioned a hypoglycemic agent...do not know what she was referring to there.
We feed him 6 times a day, canned food...and yes, his dry food is out all the time.
My vet also knows how I feel about weight gain...he's around 8 pounds and kind of pudgy...not lean at all. I feel like I am constantly feeding him and trying to keep him from running around too much, to try to avoid the seizures, but even then it does not always work.
I've thought of giving something like ice cream, between meals, but I fear a rebound low blood sugar. I just want to get it up and keep it up, without the risks of it falling all the time. Frustrating...Thanks again...

[wemple2]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

How many meals per day does Winston get or is he free-fed?

It's best if you can give several small meals per day so that you can keep his blood glucose levels stable...Free-feeding is not best for these situations, in my opinion because you cannot control how often or how much they are eating.

Prayers for Winston...this must be so hard for you..not knowing what's wrong with him...

I agree that consulting a canine nutritionist would be a good idea.

I just may need to find a nutritionist for him, Lord knows I've tried everything else...
Thank you so much for your kind words and prayers...Winston and I both appreciate it very much.

[wemple2]

Originally Posted by AVERYxo

gosh, i am so sorry!! i am not much help! but just wanted to say i hope you figure this out, soon.. we are praying for sweet lil Winston!!

How sweet of you, this is just such a strange thing...and I hate not being able to prevent these from happening. The prayers truly do mean so very much, thank you...really.

[Ladymom]

Have you or your vet ever done a glucose curve to chart Winston's fluctuations in blood glucose throughout the day? We do it with our diabetic dogs, but it might be helpful in Winston's case.

Here is some information:

Blood Glucose Curves in the Diagnosis & Regulation of Diabetes in Dogs

BD Diabetes - Learning Center - Caring for a Pet with Diabetes - Diabetes in Dogs - Monitoring Your Dog - Blood Glucose Curves

You can make your own curve in Excel:

Pet Diabetes - Anne's Excel Instructions for Canine Blood Glucose Curve

Blood glucose normally drops during a seizure, so perhaps hypoglycemia isn't the cause, but rather the effect of the seizure?

Have you discussed putting Winston on an anti-seizure medication? If he keeps having seizures for whatever reason, they will become more frequent because of a phenomenon called "kindling".

Kindling is the experimental phenomenon whereby repeated stimulation of the brain can eventually induce a chronic epileptic state that persists after the stimulation is stopped.

The underlying mechanisms of kindling are incompletely understood but involve changes in the electrical behavior of a group of brain cells. This may be related to alterations of chemical receptors (specifically what are called NMDA subtype of glutamate receptors) and changes in how these brain cells connect with each other through structures called synapses.

In a sense, by having repeated seizure the brain "learns" how to have seizures. Think about how a young child learning to write their name has to concentrate when printing each letter. After doing this over and over, we become able to quickly write our name without even thinking about the intricate hand movements involved. Obviously there is some change in our brain that allows this to happen, but it does not have to be a structural lesion.

I think of kindling as something similar. The brain is doing what it is designed to do...learn. It is just learning to do something harmful like have a seizure.

WB Thomas, DVM
Dipl. ACVIM (Neurology)
University of Tennessee
Knoxville, TN

Canine Epilepsy-Frequently asked questions about the diagnosis, treatment and management of seizures in dogs

[wemple2]

No I really have not ever done a curve...I do know, even without an episode the vet has checked it, and it's low...but not dangerous...like in the 70's.
At one time she did want to do "Insulin levels" on him...amazingly enough he fasted all night and the entire next day...at the vets...and his sugar never dropped below 60. But he was in a kennel all day. She said that it had to be low to get proper readings...I don't know why. She seems to think that he produces too much insulin...where I tend to believe he uses too much glucose.
At the very beginning of his problems, I too wondered which came first the low blood sugar or the seizure...but after witnessing his episodes, I do not think they are epileptic in nature and neither does the vets. But he has not seen a Neurologist. Do they do EEG's/brain waves on dogs? Yes, we've talked about trying anti-seizure meds on him...but they don't think it will help.
I guess the next step will have to be a nutritionist and a neurologist...hopefully I'll be able to find one around here...and maybe come to a conclusion. Thanks for all the info!!!

[my2boyz]

Kathy...how far are you from Champaigne? U. of I. has their vet school there...you might see what they have available. I'd be glad to help you search around there if you need it.

[Darcstu]

Please go get a CT scan of your doggie. This will rule out many other possible diseases or defects such as Hydrocephalus or tumors. I used to be a vet tech and had a similar prob with my dog, a chihuahua mix.
Also, I would suggest an ultrasound of his liver, gall bladder and pancreas.

Later in my dog's life, he starting getting crusty ears and feet and was licking all the time.
Several vet's mocked me and said it was just allergies and put him on tons of meds. I knew it was not and I knew he was not himself. His health only declined.

I went to the State Vet hospital and got some proper testing done.

The vet's finally diagnosed him with Hepatocutaneous syndrome. He had only been on Phenobarbital for 6 months for the seizures many years prior to that.
The whole Vet community here, was stumped b/c it seemed that the disease progressed backward.

There could have been microtumors in the pancreas, but I think he was a diabetic for a while and misdiagnosed.

In the end, he was on NPH insulin (a 12 hour insulin) three times a day. He got better after all the aminos and supplements. Unfortunatly, he never recovered from the liver/ pancreatic biopsy and I had to put him down.

Please don't put your dog on Prednisone or any anti seizure drugs. get him THOROUGHLY tested for hypoglycemia and diabetes. These drugs will do more harm than good in the long run.

Try cooking him chicken and rice for a few weeks to see if he has ANY food allergies. Check out milk thistle as well, to clear his liver and gall bladder of any toxins.
Make sure he isn't overweight.

Next time he is seizing, there is a pressure point under the base of his tail. Apply steady medium pressure (5 seconds on and 5 seconds off) until he stops seizing.
This sounds weird; although, it worked wonders for my dog. Keep a rigid seizure chart.....date, time, length.

Get second and third opinions from vets. If they are not open minded about diet and supplements and ONLY wish to put him on meds, I would see that as a red flag.

That small amount of rosemary (it is usually the LAST ingrediant) shouldn't trigger seizures; however, I would really try cooking his food for awhile to rule out any and all allergens.

The best and cheapest places for these sorts of tests (CT scan should run around $500.00) is your local teaching Vet hospital. Ultrasounds vary on price. Insist on these tests and blood tests. Some vets just don't care to figure it out.

All the research I have done about my dog, points to the fact that he wasn't absorbing any protein and aminos properly. Go to your local health food store and get him on an egg protein powder with almost zero or no sugar and massive amounts of aminos to see if this helps.

My dog lived 6 months longer than they expected due to my research and I hope any and all of this info might help you.

I could be way off base, but just in case, I wanted to share my research with you.

Vitamin d3, MSM, probiotics and ester C are good support too!

Best of luck! Contact me if you have any more questions
silverhawk82003@yahoo.com

[_Chrissy_]

Innova has Rosemary Extract!

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by _Chrissy_

Innova has Rosemary Extract!

yes my maltese had a petit mal from rosemary chicken 12 hrs after eating it and she is perfectly healthy so i try to steer clear of that ingredient in dog foods even though many have it and a few maltese on my maltese group once stopping the rosemary in dog food the dog stopped having seizures