Parti Yorkie vs Biewer

[bchgirl]

Nevermind this post

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

My puppies are priced no more than any reputable show breeder of any breed asks. I show in the venues in which I'm allowed under AKC judges, I health test my breeding pairs, my puppies have liver panels done along with regular screenings, my contract is more generous than most, I stand behind my breedings. I'm doing all I can... to produce healthy puppies.
And yes they are pretty dang cute too.

I will say IF you are looking for a Biewer, go to a reputable breeder such as Deb. She knows the lines, and which ones to look out for. She understands the lineage of the main breeders because she has taken the time and done her homework. She knows what dogs should not be paired with what lines and what's going to happen when they are. She does the required testing on her breeding pairs prior to ever breeding with them and the pups before they are sold. She goes to shows for an "unbiased" eye of what she produces.. she stands behind her dogs.. oh that all could say as much.

So if you decide on a Biewer, go to someone who knows what they are doing.. it is well worth it and you will be glad you did if/when trouble sets in.

Diana

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Hi Lynzy,

I'm sorry to hear about the health of your Biewers . For a point of reference, were these BTCA Biewers, or Biewers derived from more recent crosses to Yorkies? I'm just trying to absorb as much information as possible.

I am not much for "papers" with my pups, infact, It is not one iota a consideration when getting a pup. My Biewers are siblings, there were 3 in the litter and my secretary has the "runt" who looks nothing like my two and is quite frankly a spitting image of what the perfect Biewer "should" look like.

I recently moved and still have packed away her papers, as silly as it is I get too emotional still, but I will try to find them soon (I am finishing unpacking). I did give a copy of the papers to someone here and if she wants to answer this for me that is fine, I don't mind. I don't recall anything regarding the lines aside from I think "Teddy Bear" something, I think!

[luvlee]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

I will say IF you are looking for a Biewer, go to a reputable breeder such as Deb. She knows the lines, and which ones to look out for. She understands the lineage of the main breeders because she has taken the time and done her homework. She knows what dogs should not be paired with what lines and what's going to happen when they are. She does the required testing on her breeding pairs prior to ever breeding with them and the pups before they are sold. She goes to shows for an "unbiased" eye of what she produces.. she stands behind her dogs.. oh that all could say as much.

So if you decide on a Biewer, go to someone who knows what they are doing.. it is well worth it and you will be glad you did if/when trouble sets in.

Diana

I'm so glad we agree!! I reserved one of Deb's furbaby's already. I'm so excited & giddy!!

Tracey

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by lynzy420

I am not much for "papers" with my pups, infact, It is not one iota a consideration when getting a pup. My Biewers are siblings, there were 3 in the litter and my secretary has the "runt" who looks nothing like my two and is quite frankly a spitting image of what the perfect Biewer "should" look like.

I recently moved and still have packed away her papers, as silly as it is I get too emotional still, but I will try to find them soon (I am finishing unpacking). I did give a copy of the papers to someone here and if she wants to answer this for me that is fine, I don't mind. I don't recall anything regarding the lines aside from I think "Teddy Bear" something, I think!

Hi Lynzy, I'm sorry if I reopened a wound. This question was more related to general curiosity about the health of Biewers rather than their origins. Take your time, and do the things you need to do for yourself first.

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by luvlee

I'm so glad we agree!! I reserved one of Deb's furbaby's already. I'm so excited & giddy!!

Tracey

Stick close to Deb... there is a ton you can learn from her if you want to really learn about the Biewers.

Diana

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Hi Lynzy,

I'm sorry to hear about the health of your Biewers . For a point of reference, were these BTCA Biewers, or Biewers derived from more recent crosses to Yorkies? I'm just trying to absorb as much information as possible.

I do know their parents were both from Germany.

[Verbena]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

My puppies are priced no more than any reputable show breeder of any breed asks. I show in the venues in which I'm allowed under AKC judges, I health test my breeding pairs, my puppies have liver panels done along with regular screenings, my contract is more generous than most, I stand behind my breedings. I'm doing all I can... to produce healthy puppies.
And yes they are pretty dang cute too.

I agree the price for Biewers is no different. Actually when I was originally started looking for a Yorkie. I found one from a reputable YTCA breeder was charging me for a pet quality Yorkie that I could have got a show quality Biewer. Makes you wonder. I saw a Biewer, I was in love. I love my Biewer. I would not trade him in for anything. And people like Deb are working hard to be the best reputable Biewer Breeder.

[BWRTerrierFan]

ICKC, a show venue that some people on this thread show through, recognizes Biewers, Yorkies, Golddust and Biros to be shown as separate breeds yet I see on some peoples websites that these dogs are coming out of the same litter! How is that possible, litter mates but different breeds??? Very credible I see.

[pstinard]

Okay, I've formed my opinion on whether Biewers are a separate breed from Yorkshire Terriers based on the information I currently have. It could change based on new research, so it isn't set in stone, but here it is:

Based on the results of breed purity analysis conducted by MARS Labs, I can only conclude that the 100 Biewers that were tested do indeed contain DNA from other breeds of dogs. And the PCA analyses conducted by MARS Labs indicate that these Biewers are fairly uniform, and cluster in their own group separate from Yorkshire Terriers. To me, that meets the definition of a separate breed, but ultimately it's the AKC and other registries who will have to make that decision.

How these other breeds got mixed in Yorkshire Terriers to create the Biewer Terrier is somewhat a mystery to me (perhaps falsified pedigree records in the distant past or "oops" matings, but I am not going to point fingers because those people are long gone and we have no real way of knowing), but the DNA evidence is there, and it is very strong. For me, the smoking gun is the piebald spotting gene (MITF gene) on chromosome 20. This isn't a simple random mutation that can spontaneously occur over and over, but appears to have originated once during the domestication of dogs, and been transferred to the breeds with piebald spotting by crossbreeding and selection. In the breeds analyzed so far, all piebald spotting genes carry a unique DNA insertion called a SINE in the upstream regulatory region of the MITF gene (the part of the DNA that controls the expression of the MITF gene--where and when the gene will be expressed during the dog's growth and development) as well as a separate length polymorphism (segment of DNA that can vary in length) in the upstream regulatory region. The chances against both changes occurring at once spontaneously in a single Yorkshire Terrier are astronomical. My conclusion is that the piebald spotting gene had to have been bred in from another breed of dog during the development of the Biewer Terrier. The way to resolve this question once and for all would be to completely sequence the upstream regulatory regions of the MITF gene in Biewers and see whether it indeed carries the SINE and the length polymorphism. If it does, then it's a done deal as far as I am concerned that the Biewer arose from breeding a Yorkshire Terrier with another breed and re-extracing the piebald color gene.

Since I am a believer in the conservation of genetic resources, my recommendation is that Biewers be bred only with other Biewers in order to preserve their unique characteristics, which go beyond color, but also include behavioral differences. If you keep crossing Biewers back to Yorkshire Terriers, you are going to lose these unique characteristics, and end up with something more like a Yorkshire Terrier, but yet will never quite be a Yorkshire Terrier.

Okay, I'm stepping down off my soapbox now. If you disagree, it's all good, but please be kind and don't shoot the messenger. Thanks!

[lynzy420]

Pstinard, this is great stuff your giving us and I hope you stick around...education like this is priceless!

[luvlee]

Originally Posted by pstinard

How these other breeds got mixed in Yorkshire Terriers to create the Biewer Terrier is somewhat a mystery to me (perhaps falsified pedigree records in the distant past or "oops" matings, but I am not going to point fingers because those people are long gone and we have no real way of knowing), but the DNA evidence is there, and it is very strong. For me, the smoking gun is the piebald spotting gene (MITF gene) on chromosome 20. This isn't a simple random mutation that can spontaneously occur over and over, but appears to have originated once during the domestication of dogs, and been transferred to the breeds with piebald spotting by crossbreeding and selection. In the breeds analyzed so far, all piebald spotting genes carry a unique DNA insertion called a SINE in the upstream regulatory region of the MITF gene (the part of the DNA that controls the expression of the MITF gene--where and when the gene will be expressed during the dog's growth and development) as well as a separate length polymorphism (segment of DNA that can vary in length) in the upstream regulatory region. The chances against both changes occurring at once spontaneously in a single Yorkshire Terrier are astronomical. My conclusion is that the piebald spotting gene had to have been bred in from another breed of dog during the development of the Biewer Terrier. The way to resolve this question once and for all would be to completely sequence the upstream regulatory regions of the MITF gene in Biewers and see whether it indeed carries the SINE and the length polymorphism. If it does, then it's a done deal as far as I am concerned that the Biewer arose from breeding a Yorkshire Terrier with another breed and re-extracing the piebald color gene.

There is some controversy about other breeds potentially being mixed in by Mr. Biewer. I think it's the Maltese. But that suggestion has been disputed by many people.

In any event, I agree that crossing the Biewer back with the Yorkshire Terrier would water down the Biewer characteristics. I know many here are vocally against Biewer to Biewer breedings but I think it's the only way to preserve the Biewer breed as a distinct breed.

Thanks for your analysis. Tracey

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by lynzy420

Pstinard, this is great stuff your giving us and I hope you stick around...education like this is priceless!

Originally Posted by luvlee

There is some controversy about other breeds potentially being mixed in by Mr. Biewer. I think it's the Maltese. But that suggestion has been disputed by many people.

In any event, I agree that crossing the Biewer back with the Yorkshire Terrier would water down the Biewer characteristics. I know many here are vocally against Biewer to Biewer breedings but I think it's the only way to preserve the Biewer breed as a distinct breed.

Thanks for your analysis. Tracey

Thanks, Lynzy and Tracey! I'm trying to stay out of the controversy of how it happened, and just report what I think is there to the best of my knowledge.

[chachi]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Okay, I've formed my opinion on whether Biewers are a separate breed from Yorkshire Terriers based on the information I currently have. It could change based on new research, so it isn't set in stone, but here it is:

Based on the results of breed purity analysis conducted by MARS Labs, I can only conclude that the 100 Biewers that were tested do indeed contain DNA from other breeds of dogs. And the PCA analyses conducted by MARS Labs indicate that these Biewers are fairly uniform, and cluster in their own group separate from Yorkshire Terriers. To me, that meets the definition of a separate breed, but ultimately it's the AKC and other registries who will have to make that decision.

How these other breeds got mixed in Yorkshire Terriers to create the Biewer Terrier is somewhat a mystery to me (perhaps falsified pedigree records in the distant past or "oops" matings, but I am not going to point fingers because those people are long gone and we have no real way of knowing), but the DNA evidence is there, and it is very strong. For me, the smoking gun is the piebald spotting gene (MITF gene) on chromosome 20. This isn't a simple random mutation that can spontaneously occur over and over, but appears to have originated once during the domestication of dogs, and been transferred to the breeds with piebald spotting by crossbreeding and selection. In the breeds analyzed so far, all piebald spotting genes carry a unique DNA insertion called a SINE in the upstream regulatory region of the MITF gene (the part of the DNA that controls the expression of the MITF gene--where and when the gene will be expressed during the dog's growth and development) as well as a separate length polymorphism (segment of DNA that can vary in length) in the upstream regulatory region. The chances against both changes occurring at once spontaneously in a single Yorkshire Terrier are astronomical. My conclusion is that the piebald spotting gene had to have been bred in from another breed of dog during the development of the Biewer Terrier. The way to resolve this question once and for all would be to completely sequence the upstream regulatory regions of the MITF gene in Biewers and see whether it indeed carries the SINE and the length polymorphism. If it does, then it's a done deal as far as I am concerned that the Biewer arose from breeding a Yorkshire Terrier with another breed and re-extracing the piebald color gene.

Since I am a believer in the conservation of genetic resources, my recommendation is that Biewers be bred only with other Biewers in order to preserve their unique characteristics, which go beyond color, but also include behavioral differences. If you keep crossing Biewers back to Yorkshire Terriers, you are going to lose these unique characteristics, and end up with something more like a Yorkshire Terrier, but yet will never quite be a Yorkshire Terrier.

Okay, I'm stepping down off my soapbox now. If you disagree, it's all good, but please be kind and don't shoot the messenger. Thanks!

I understand everything except the piebald gene explanation. How do you explain how the parti yorkie got the piebald gene also and why are they considered yorkies if biewers arent

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Okay, I've formed my opinion on whether Biewers are a separate breed from Yorkshire Terriers based on the information I currently have. It could change based on new research, so it isn't set in stone, but here it is:

Based on the results of breed purity analysis conducted by MARS Labs, I can only conclude that the 100 Biewers that were tested do indeed contain DNA from other breeds of dogs. And the PCA analyses conducted by MARS Labs indicate that these Biewers are fairly uniform, and cluster in their own group separate from Yorkshire Terriers. To me, that meets the definition of a separate breed, but ultimately it's the AKC and other registries who will have to make that decision.

How these other breeds got mixed in Yorkshire Terriers to create the Biewer Terrier is somewhat a mystery to me (perhaps falsified pedigree records in the distant past or "oops" matings, but I am not going to point fingers because those people are long gone and we have no real way of knowing), but the DNA evidence is there, and it is very strong. For me, the smoking gun is the piebald spotting gene (MITF gene) on chromosome 20. This isn't a simple random mutation that can spontaneously occur over and over, but appears to have originated once during the domestication of dogs, and been transferred to the breeds with piebald spotting by crossbreeding and selection. In the breeds analyzed so far, all piebald spotting genes carry a unique DNA insertion called a SINE in the upstream regulatory region of the MITF gene (the part of the DNA that controls the expression of the MITF gene--where and when the gene will be expressed during the dog's growth and development) as well as a separate length polymorphism (segment of DNA that can vary in length) in the upstream regulatory region. The chances against both changes occurring at once spontaneously in a single Yorkshire Terrier are astronomical. My conclusion is that the piebald spotting gene had to have been bred in from another breed of dog during the development of the Biewer Terrier. The way to resolve this question once and for all would be to completely sequence the upstream regulatory regions of the MITF gene in Biewers and see whether it indeed carries the SINE and the length polymorphism. If it does, then it's a done deal as far as I am concerned that the Biewer arose from breeding a Yorkshire Terrier with another breed and re-extracing the piebald color gene.

Since I am a believer in the conservation of genetic resources, my recommendation is that Biewers be bred only with other Biewers in order to preserve their unique characteristics, which go beyond color, but also include behavioral differences. If you keep crossing Biewers back to Yorkshire Terriers, you are going to lose these unique characteristics, and end up with something more like a Yorkshire Terrier, but yet will never quite be a Yorkshire Terrier.

Okay, I'm stepping down off my soapbox now. If you disagree, it's all good, but please be kind and don't shoot the messenger. Thanks!

Well.. that is your opinion and you are of course free to have it. And, based on the knowledge you have been able to gather I can see where you could come to that conclusion.

How do you account however for the exact same gene being in the Parti Yorkshire Terrier (in the states).. actually being documented prior to Heir Biewers pup? The yorkies in the states are producing and have produced the same Piebald gene without being bred with the Biewer or any other "mixes".. they have been DNA'd to be pure Yorkshire Terrier by the AKC. Generations of yorkies have been tested by a reputable lab for DNA parentage from a very well know yorkie breeder.

Now, if this can happen in the States with full pure bred yorkies, why does it have to be a different story with the German yorkies? Do you not think that if what the MARS lab said was really in the makeup of these Biewers (they only go back three generations) We would see some throw backs to some of the these dogs??

You stated in one of your posts that you believed that breeding back to the yorkie was a recent event.. far from it. What is recent is NOT breeding back to the yorkie. It is only within the last few years that people have decided NOT to breed back to yorkies and breed Biewer to Biewer only. (One club here in the states has always stated Biewer to Biewer only) In Germany, the country of origin, they have always bred back to yorkies, many breeders still do. Within one litter you have both yorkies and Biewers and they are registered by color into what breed they are. You can also have GoldDust and many other "colors" that are considered separate BREEDS! ooh so simple! But my point is breeding back to the yorkie is NOT a new thing at all, it was ALWAYS done, it had to be, and in my opinion it still should be.

Now, back to the MARS test.. IF the test had used a cross section of Biewers to get the markers against which all of the dogs were to be measured maybe the testing would have some validity.. However,. this was not the case. The dogs used to create the marker were from one group of people, one specific group of dogs. The samples were "submitted" by someone claiming to be a vet (who was not). Tainted test, tainted results FOREVER! Unless and until they totally start over collecting the information to get a good base.. that test is meaningless. MARS themselves have stated over and over again that this test, if taken for dogs from small populations and animals or dogs not bred in the US is note accurate.. if you look in the YT archives , I'm sure you'll find the letter from the MARS people stating such.

OK.. there, My opinion and a few questions too I guess .. always more questions than answers!

Diana