Parti Color? YTCA?

[darbygale]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

W don't do that because they are yorkies. You can't just change the name and start another breed. som e of the biewer people have tried that. it didn't work too well for them.

You don't know what the YTCA or the AKC will do in the future. All it will take is for some very influencial, person with money to take a fancy to the parti and things will change.

OMG another person who thinks money can buy anything but that won't work, just like the stimulus package. That hasn't worked either.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

The YTCA says the Clydesdale or Paisley were used for the length and texture of the coat but how readily available were those dogs to the average breeder? Possibly the Maltese was an easier dog to obtain in order to improve the length of coat.

Here's another very good early book.

The Terriers. A History And Description Of The Modern Dogs Of Great Britain And Ireland | by Rawdon B. Lee

What's good about this book is that it's available to read online in its entirety. It doesn't really address this issue but is a good read.

It's open to speculation just who used what dogs in their program at that time. I don't think there's was only one formula used by everyone, but the breed standard brought about an identifiable dog from it all.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by kpstoybox

Did you miss the two or three pages in this thread that shows that CH Hylan Acres Ridin' The Storm produced a litter that consisted of 2 beautifully marked parti pups? The owner of Ridin the storm told the bitch owner to whom these parti's were born too...to pet them out. From what I have read here...the owner of the bitch had the puppies DNA'd by the AKC to prove heritage...and AKC papers were issued on ALL the pups.

Ridin' the Storm was proven to be the sire to those parti pups by DNA..and his pedigree is "supposedly" all clean...top of the line show lines. Where did the parti come from in this instance?

If I read the pedigree right, the tail lines are pretty iffy and not all from show lines.

[yorkiegirl2]

So can anyone answer where did the Clydesdale / Paisley terrier soft coat come from and who was in his background to give him the soft coat ?
All of the scotch terriers were (hard) broken haired.
The Skye breeders were up in arms about Clydesdale / Paisley because they stated the dog was not a Skye because it had a soft coat.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by yorkiegirl2

So can anyone answer where did the Clydesdale / Paisley terrier soft coat come from and who was in his background to give him the soft coat ?
All of the scotch terriers were (hard) broken haired.
The Skye breeders were up in arms about Clydesdale / Paisley because they stated the dog was not a Skye because it had a soft coat.

""After the decision against the eligibility of the silky-coated dog to compete in the Skye terrier classes, the breed rapidly declined. A few, however, held to the breed out of pure love and admiration for it, but they were few. The Paisley fanciers appear never to have lost sight of the dog, and it was not only by keeping and breeding them that they again brought the silky-coated beauties into popularity, but by instituting classes for them at the annual dog shows held at Paisley on New Year's Day. A fresh interest was thus begun in the breed, which has never been allowed to flag. . . . Breeders of hard-coated dogs, more especially if the coat be long, know how difficult it is to keep up the hard coat, on account of the washing, combing, etc, required to keep the dog in show trim, and also from the idle and indoor life exhibition dogs lead. A pup now and again will be found in a litter with a soft coat, although not quite silky in texture. These a good breeder, as a matter of course, would reject; but how many do really reject them, if they are good in other points? They perhaps do not breed from them, but they do not hesitate to sell them, and thus increase the difficulty by giving good pedigrees to such dogs. In Skye terriers the length of coat is one of the principal points; one therefore can easily understand how a pup with an extra long coat would be prized, even should the coat be a little soft. This, then, was how the Paisley terrier originated. The silky-coated dogs, from their great beauty, took the eye, and were greatly prized as pets; and as the demand increased, which it very quickly did when they began to win prizes, they were bred in large numbers, and the points now attained were only arrived at by careful selection and scientific breeding. Some dark rumours are afloat about the crosses that were resorted to to gain the points desired, but if such a thing ever took place it has never been made public. It is hinted that the Dandie had something to do with the manufacture of this breed, and we have heard it asserted that the Paisley terrier was the result of a Dandie-Skye cross, but we have seen no evidence to support this statement. We are of opinion that no cross was required, and that in the case of the best strains none took place."

From this link... The Terriers. A History And Description Of The Modern Dogs Of Great Britain And Ireland | by Rawdon B. Lee

[Woogie Man]

....and here's a little something I posted earlier that is is reference to the Yorkshire (from the same book copyright 1894).

"There are some other rough-haired toy terriers, which are, however, of little account, because they have never been bred to any particular type. Occasionally wee things very like what a miniature Skye terrier would be are seen; and, again, some smart little dogs with cut ears, evidently a cross between a Yorkshire terrier and some other variety of small dog, are not at all uncommon, and were quite numerous before the dog show era commenced. Since then the general public will not look at anything other than what is considered to be of blue blood. At one of the early London shows separate classes were provided for Scotch terriers under 71b. weight and white in colour, fawns with the same limit, and blues likewise, each of the three attracting a fair entry, most of which were, however, what we should now call "cross-bred" broken-haired toy terriers."

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by darbygale

[/COLOR]

OMG another person who thinks money can buy anything but that won't work, just like the stimulus package. That hasn't worked either.

How do you know it won't work? Do you have a crystal ball.

The only thing in life that NEVER changes, is that "things change". The next generation of YTCA members might like the parti. In a few years, the partis will have improved greatly, because we now have breeders who are not breeding partis for money. They are breeding to improve the parti.

Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy just about anything else.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by yorkiegirl2

So can anyone answer where did the Clydesdale / Paisley terrier soft coat come from and who was in his background to give him the soft coat ?
All of the scotch terriers were (hard) broken haired.
The Skye breeders were up in arms about Clydesdale / Paisley because they stated the dog was not a Skye because it had a soft coat.

The American book of the dog. The origin, development, special characteristics, utility, breeding, training, points of judging, diseases, and kennel management of all breeds of dogs

The above book says the paisley terrier probably inherited its soft, silky coat from a maltese cross (pg. 439).

[darbygale]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

How do you know it won't work? Do you have a crystal ball.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

The American book of the dog. The origin, development, special characteristics, utility, breeding, training, points of judging, diseases, and kennel management of all breeds of dogs

The above book says the paisley terrier probably inherited its soft, silky coat from a maltese cross (pg. 439).

...and the book I linked says this:

"Some dark rumours are afloat about the crosses that were resorted to to gain the points desired, but if such a thing ever took place it has never been made public. It is hinted that the Dandie had something to do with the manufacture of this breed, and we have heard it asserted that the Paisley terrier was the result of a Dandie-Skye cross, but we have seen no evidence to support this statement. We are of opinion that no cross was required, and that in the case of the best strains none took place."

The book I quoted from is from 1894. I don't remember but the one you cite is old, too. You can see that, even in that era, there was disagreement or differing opinions, at least. This from those who were around at the time.

It goes to show that, not only is the Yorkshire's history murky, but also that of some of the dogs that went into its makeup. I feel that all we have to really rely on is the standard. Otherwise, anyone can pick and choose their preferred history and proceed from there. Had that been done since the beginning, there would be no Yorkshire Terrier today.

[Elle]

Originally Posted by kpstoybox

Does it really matter who the bitch was? It takes two to tango in the parti world...so to speak. The recessive gene has to come from both parents for it to be expressed in one of the puppies. Meaning...the sire has to be a carrier as well.

Maltese breeder? If you say so. However, I have no idea if she owns or breeds Maltese. LOL But...just so you know..the bitch in question was sired by CH Durrer's Mighty Obsession.

So who had the sire and who had the bitch? If it takes a recessive gene, how do you know this to be a fact? Are you saying that the owners/breeders of these dogs confirmed this? How do you confirm the gene? How do you determine if you will breed it?

[Elle]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Here's another very good early book.

The Terriers. A History And Description Of The Modern Dogs Of Great Britain And Ireland | by Rawdon B. Lee

What's good about this book is that it's available to read online in its entirety. It doesn't really address this issue but is a good read.

It's open to speculation just who used what dogs in their program at that time. I don't think there's was only one formula used by everyone, but the breed standard brought about an identifiable dog from it all.

I enjoyed it.

[darbygale]

I see where Raymond's Mom asked if the parti people were doing any testing of their dogs and pups but never saw an answer. Anyone doing bile acid tests, x-rays for LeggsPerthe, luxating patellas, complete blood and chemistry profiles etc?

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by Elle

So who had the sire and who had the bitch? If it takes a recessive gene, how do you know this to be a fact? Are you saying that the owners/breeders of these dogs confirmed this? How do you confirm the gene? How do you determine if you will breed it?

The white gene is recessive. In order for it to be expressed it has to be present in both the dam and the sire.

Using Punnett squares, you will see the following:

Two traditional colored yorkies without the parti gene will produce only traditional colored yorkies (4:4).

A traditional colored yorkie bred to a traditional colored parti carrier will have all traditional colored pups, but have a 50% chance of passing the gene on to each off spring (2:4 are traditional without the gene, 2:4 will carry it.)

A traditional colored yorkie without the parti gene bred to a full parti will produce tradtional colored pups that all carry the parti gene (4:4).

Two traditional colored pups with parti genes will have a 1:4 chance of producing a pup without the gene, 2:4 of producing a traditional colored pup with the gene and a 1:4 chance of producing a parti colored yorkie.

Breeding two full parti's will result in only parti's (4:4)

[puppylove11]

Originally Posted by darbygale

I see where Raymond's Mom asked if the parti people were doing any testing of their dogs and pups but never saw an answer. Anyone doing bile acid tests, x-rays for LeggsPerthe, luxating patellas, complete blood and chemistry profiles etc?

On the other hand I would love to see all the ytca members health testing records for their dogs. I know for a fact there are some ytca members who do no health testing!