Parti Color? YTCA?

[Woogie Man]

I came across this and found it interesting in that these passages mirror the Yorkshire/Parti debate in some ways. The first passage has to do with the Paisley/Clydesdale Terrier and the reaction of Skye terrier fanciers to them. It is from "The Terrier. A History And Description Of The Modern Dogs Of Great Britain And Ireland" by Rawdon B. Lee, copyright 1894.

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"Mr. Thomson Gray, in his "Dogs of Scotland," says: "While possessing all the characteristics of the Skye, as far as form, colour, and length of coat are concerned, they have a soft, silky coat, and on this account have been known for the past ten years or so as Glasgow or Paisley terriers. Previous to this, however, they were simply known as Skyes, and exhibited as such. The Paisley terrier has never been very widely distributed, and seldom found beyond the valley of the Clyde. At the shows which used to be held at Glasgow a dozen or more years back, these silky-coated terriers were seen in all their beauty, and the fact of their appearing there as Skyes was what first brought them into prominence. The fanciers of the hard-coated Skyes rose in arms against them, holding that they were not Skyes, as they had a silky coat, and were only pretty 'mongrels' bred from Skye terrier 'rejections,' and ought to be known as Glasgow or Paisley Skyes. On the other hand, the breeders of the silky-coated dogs held, as a matter of course, that the texture of coat their dogs possessed was the correct one. This was untenable, as until the introduction of this breed no Scottish dog had a silky or soft coat.

"After the decision against the eligibility of the silky-coated dog to compete in the Skye terrier classes, the breed rapidly declined. A few, however, held to the breed out of pure love and admiration for it, but they were few. The Paisley fanciers appear never to have lost sight of the dog, and it was not only by keeping and breeding them that they again brought the silky-coated beauties into popularity, but by instituting classes for them at the annual dog shows held at Paisley on New Year's Day. A fresh interest was thus begun in the breed, which has never been allowed to flag. . . . Breeders of hard-coated dogs, more especially if the coat be long, know how difficult it is to keep up the hard coat, on account of the washing, combing, etc, required to keep the dog in show trim, and also from the idle and indoor life exhibition dogs lead. A pup now and again will be found in a litter with a soft coat, although not quite silky in texture. These a good breeder, as a matter of course, would reject; but how many do really reject them, if they are good in other points? They perhaps do not breed from them, but they do not hesitate to sell them, and thus increase the difficulty by giving good pedigrees to such dogs. In Skye terriers the length of coat is one of the principal points; one therefore can easily understand how a pup with an extra long coat would be prized, even should the coat be a little soft. This, then, was how the Paisley terrier originated. The silky-coated dogs, from their great beauty, took the eye, and were greatly prized as pets; and as the demand increased, which it very quickly did when they began to win prizes, they were bred in large numbers, and the points now attained were only arrived at by careful selection and scientific breeding. Some dark rumours are afloat about the crosses that were resorted to to gain the points desired, but if such a thing ever took place it has never been made public. It is hinted that the Dandie had something to do with the manufacture of this breed, and we have heard it asserted that the Paisley terrier was the result of a Dandie-Skye cross, but we have seen no evidence to support this statement. We are of opinion that no cross was required, and that in the case of the best strains none took place."

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Sound kinda familiar? Here's another passage from the same book.

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"There are some other rough-haired toy terriers, which are, however, of little account, because they have never been bred to any particular type. Occasionally wee things very like what a miniature Skye terrier would be are seen; and, again, some smart little dogs with cut ears, evidently a cross between a Yorkshire terrier and some other variety of small dog, are not at all uncommon, and were quite numerous before the dog show era commenced. Since then the general public will not look at anything other than what is considered to be of blue blood. At one of the early London shows separate classes were provided for Scotch terriers under 71b. weight and white in colour, fawns with the same limit, and blues likewise, each of the three attracting a fair entry, most of which were, however, what we should now call "cross-bred" broken-haired toy terriers."

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...and here's the breed standard for the Yorkshire Terrier from the same book.

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"Coat
The hair as long and straight as possible (not wavy), which should be glossy, like silk (not woolly); colour, a bright steel blue, extending from the back of the head to the root of the tail, and on no account intermingled the least with fawn, light, or dark hairs."

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All this doesn't settle any debate, because those that want to argue will. It is a good read, however, for any interested in older accounts of the Yorkshire and the other Terriers. The book is available to read online and here is the link for it.
The Terriers. A History And Description Of The Modern Dogs Of Great Britain And Ireland | by Rawdon B. Lee

[yorkiegirl2]

A book written in 1902 called the Dog Shows And Doggy People

Mr. Pratt must be one of the oldest Skye fanciers left amongst us. At one time he had the finest kennel, at any rate in England, of the breed, and told me he has bred more than a thousand of them in his time!

In the portrait I have received from this well-known fancier he will be seen wearing a Scottish bonnet, one hundred years old, and formerly belonging to Gordon Cumming (whose books on Big Game Hunting in Africa, etc., we have, some of us, read), accompanied by his Skye White Piper, whom he considered an albino, so rarely is pure white seen in that variety; and on this point the writer, in a long experience of Skyes, can say that he remembers only once before seeing a specimen of that colour, more than twenty-five years since, when he was travelling in the Island of Skye.

MR. JAMES PRATT WITH HIS SKYE TERRIER WHITE PIPER

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by yorkiegirl2

A book written in 1902 called the Dog Shows And Doggy People

Mr. Pratt must be one of the oldest Skye fanciers left amongst us. At one time he had the finest kennel, at any rate in England, of the breed, and told me he has bred more than a thousand of them in his time!

In the portrait I have received from this well-known fancier he will be seen wearing a Scottish bonnet, one hundred years old, and formerly belonging to Gordon Cumming (whose books on Big Game Hunting in Africa, etc., we have, some of us, read), accompanied by his Skye White Piper, whom he considered an albino, so rarely is pure white seen in that variety; and on this point the writer, in a long experience of Skyes, can say that he remembers only once before seeing a specimen of that colour, more than twenty-five years since, when he was travelling in the Island of Skye.

MR. JAMES PRATT WITH HIS SKYE TERRIER WHITE PIPER

If Piper was an albino, that has nothing to do with the parti gene. Also, Skyes come in a platinum color that can be considered white, but it is actually a very white silver color. Still, nothing to do with the parti gene.
Skyes dont carry the parti gene.

[jencar98]

Thank you Jim, that is an interesting article and does show the more things change, the more they stay the same. If one had a crystal ball, it would be interesting to see what the argument amongst dog fanciers will be in the future.

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by yorkiegirl2

A book written in 1902 called the Dog Shows And Doggy People

Mr. Pratt must be one of the oldest Skye fanciers left amongst us. At one time he had the finest kennel, at any rate in England, of the breed, and told me he has bred more than a thousand of them in his time!

In the portrait I have received from this well-known fancier he will be seen wearing a Scottish bonnet, one hundred years old, and formerly belonging to Gordon Cumming (whose books on Big Game Hunting in Africa, etc., we have, some of us, read), accompanied by his Skye White Piper, whom he considered an albino, so rarely is pure white seen in that variety; and on this point the writer, in a long experience of Skyes, can say that he remembers only once before seeing a specimen of that colour, more than twenty-five years since, when he was travelling in the Island of Skye.

MR. JAMES PRATT WITH HIS SKYE TERRIER WHITE PIPER

Thank you for posting this, very interesting too.

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

If Piper was an albino, that has nothing to do with the parti gene. Also, Skyes come in a platinum color that can be considered white, but it is actually a very white silver color. Still, nothing to do with the parti gene.
Skyes dont carry the parti gene.

It is hard to tell from an old photo but this dogs nose looks black in the pic, and wouldn't an albino have a pink/lighter color nose?

Also, do you know for a fact that Skye's do not carry the parti gene or is that your opinion? I don't know and haven't read this before, so am wondering if your information is factual?

[bjh]

This is taken from the Skye Terrier standard:

Color
The coat must be of one over-all color at the skin but may be of varying shades of the same color in the full coat, which may be black, blue, dark or light grey, silver platinum, fawn or cream. The dog must have no distinctive markings except for the desirable black points of ears, muzzle and tip of tail, all of which points are preferably dark even to black. The shade of head and legs should approximate that of the body. There must be no trace of pattern, design or clear-cut color variations, with the exception of the breed's only permissible white which occasionally exists on the chest not exceeding 2 inches in diameter.

The puppy coat may be very different in color from the adult coat. Therefore, as it is growing and clearing, wide variations of color may occur; consequently, this is permissible in dogs under 18 months of age. However, even in puppies there must be no trace of pattern, design, or clear-cut variations with the exception of the black band encircling the body coat of the creme colored dog, and the only permissible white which, as in the adult dog, occasionally exists on the chest not exceeding 2 inches in diameter.

Disqualification
A Dudley, flesh-colored or brown nose shall disqualify.

I did a quick search for parti skye terriers and could not find any references to them.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by jencar98

Also, do you know for a fact that Skye's do not carry the parti gene or is that your opinion? I don't know and haven't read this before, so am wondering if your information is factual?

Jenn, here's the standard for the Skye's color from the book I referenced earlier.

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7. Colour (Any Variety)
Dark or light blue or grey, or fawn with black points. Shade of head and legs approximating that of body".

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One thing to remember in referencing these old sources is that these breeds were not set at this time, at least not in the modern context. What set the type is preference and what was winning at dog shows. The idea of 'pure bred' as we know it was in its infancy and there were many crosses being made. This led to the creation of official standards which began to sort out the confusion.

As you've probably heard, there were many types of dogs being shown in the 'broken-haired Scotch Terrier' class at one time, including the Maltese and Yorkshire Terrier. It was not unheard of at that time for 2 dogs from the same litter being shown in different classes, depending on the traits expressed. That is the reality of the dog world at that time.

While these old texts are interesting in studying the evolution of these breeds, they don't constitute 'proof' of any variation being of a certain breed. The standards were created to sort out the mess that was the group of terriers at that time. From these standards, we have gotten to a point of discernable breeds that breed pure if bred correctly. Breeding for variations runs counter to the whole idea of breeding pure, especially among terriers, a relatively young group of dogs as far as distinct breeds go.

[evab]

Hi, can I comment these old British Dog books are very hard to comprehend by some, because of the way they were written obviously. And believe me I have very many.

The Scotch Terrier was a breed upon itself. The term "Scotch terriers" were refered to dogs from those counties persae (Scotland has Aberdeenshire,Paisley, Isle of Skye etc). These types of dogs from these differing areas all showed under the same catagories until specific more relevant show catagories were added at Shows.

Scotland is the home of many short-legged and rough-coated breeds of Terriers,(alot of them are white) which closely linked one to another. Which of these types is the original is hard to state with accuracy, but it has been stated that the Cairn Terrier represents the type from which the West Highland White, Scottish,Skye and Clydesdale Terriers have sprung. The Cairn itself was once called by many many early breeders the short-haired Skye Terrier. The Skye is at least 300 years old, of purely Scottish origin, Queen Victoria having owned several, one of those were indeed presented to her by Mr Pratt. The Skye of today is of course vastly different appearance from the early type. You can read into a book what you wish to see, in an endeavour to trace a white dog. The colours of the Skye are Blue-Grey, Fawn or Cream, often with Black or dark points on the ears and head.
What is very important here is where ever there is a breed standard, set in type and colour, that is the breed standard and no amount of bulling will change a Tan dog with a Blue saddle (Pure bred Yorkie) into a White dog with a Black saddle, an all white dog, a brown dog etc etc into a recognised Pure bred British Yorkie.(should we also suggest that a nice little West Highland White is in the gene pool of our beloved Yorkie, and that is the reason why the parti dog appeared in America) We do not have these colours in our UKKC registry, our clubs do not recognise them, clubs that have looked over this breed for hundreds of years.

[Raymond's Mom]

Originally Posted by evab

Hi, can I comment these old British Dog books are very hard to comprehend by some, because of the way they were written obviously. And believe me I have very many.

The Scotch Terrier was a breed upon itself. The term "Scotch terriers" were refered to dogs from those counties persae (Scotland has Aberdeenshire,Paisley, Isle of Skye etc). These types of dogs from these differing areas all showed under the same catagories until specific more relevant show catagories were added at Shows.

Scotland is the home of many short-legged and rough-coated breeds of Terriers,(alot of them are white) which closely linked one to another. Which of these types is the original is hard to state with accuracy, but it has been stated that the Cairn Terrier represents the type from which the West Highland White, Scottish,Skye and Clydesdale Terriers have sprung. The Cairn itself was once called by many many early breeders the short-haired Skye Terrier. The Skye is at least 300 years old, of purely Scottish origin, Queen Victoria having owned several, one of those were indeed presented to her by Mr Pratt. The Skye of today is of course vastly different appearance from the early type. You can read into a book what you wish to see, in an endeavour to trace a white dog. The colours of the Skye are Blue-Grey, Fawn or Cream, often with Black or dark points on the ears and head.
What is very important here is where ever there is a breed standard, set in type and colour, that is the breed standard and no amount of bulling will change a Tan dog with a Blue saddle (Pure bred Yorkie) into a White dog with a Black saddle, an all white dog, a brown dog etc etc into a recognised Pure bred British Yorkie.(should we also suggest that a nice little West Highland White is in the gene pool of our beloved Yorkie, and that is the reason why the parti dog appeared in America) We do not have these colours in our UKKC registry, our clubs do not recognise them, clubs that have looked over this breed for hundreds of years.

In AKC's desperate quest for added income our breed has been forced to allow the registering of a color and color pattern that was never intended by those who set the origional yorkshire terrier type, coat and color. That is the travsety of this whole fiasco with both Biewers and parti color yorkies.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by evab

Hi, can I comment these old British Dog books are very hard to comprehend by some, because of the way they were written obviously. And believe me I have very many.

The Scotch Terrier was a breed upon itself. The term "Scotch terriers" were refered to dogs from those counties persae (Scotland has Aberdeenshire,Paisley, Isle of Skye etc). These types of dogs from these differing areas all showed under the same catagories until specific more relevant show catagories were added at Shows.

Scotland is the home of many short-legged and rough-coated breeds of Terriers,(alot of them are white) which closely linked one to another. Which of these types is the original is hard to state with accuracy, but it has been stated that the Cairn Terrier represents the type from which the West Highland White, Scottish,Skye and Clydesdale Terriers have sprung. The Cairn itself was once called by many many early breeders the short-haired Skye Terrier. The Skye is at least 300 years old, of purely Scottish origin, Queen Victoria having owned several, one of those were indeed presented to her by Mr Pratt. The Skye of today is of course vastly different appearance from the early type. You can read into a book what you wish to see, in an endeavour to trace a white dog. The colours of the Skye are Blue-Grey, Fawn or Cream, often with Black or dark points on the ears and head.
What is very important here is where ever there is a breed standard, set in type and colour, that is the breed standard and no amount of bulling will change a Tan dog with a Blue saddle (Pure bred Yorkie) into a White dog with a Black saddle, an all white dog, a brown dog etc etc into a recognised Pure bred British Yorkie.(should we also suggest that a nice little West Highland White is in the gene pool of our beloved Yorkie, and that is the reason why the parti dog appeared in America) We do not have these colours in our UKKC registry, our clubs do not recognise them, clubs that have looked over this breed for hundreds of years.

As to the areas I highlighted, I agree completely.....and vague references to off colored dogs do not validate their inclusion into a breed whose standard has been set. I've said before that if there were parti-colored Yorkies since the beginning, they should have gone their own way long ago as a separate breed, much as the Paisley/Clydesdale did in relation to the Skye.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by evab

(should we also suggest that a nice little West Highland White is in the gene pool of our beloved Yorkie, and that is the reason why the parti dog appeared in America) We do not have these colours in our UKKC registry, our clubs do not recognise them, clubs that have looked over this breed for hundreds of years.

Or maybe it was the Maltese who introduced the white genes into our American dogs when the breed began in the late 1800's? Maltese are mentioned in many, many early books written in the late 1800's and early 1900's as being in the Yorkie's heritage.

Even the KC kennel club says that dogs like the Maltese were used in the makeup of the Yorkshire terrier.
The Kennel Club-Yorkshire Terrier

You're not implying that a Nikkos owned Westie is the reason for partis to appear in the 1990's are you?

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

If Piper was an albino, that has nothing to do with the parti gene. Also, Skyes come in a platinum color that can be considered white, but it is actually a very white silver color. Still, nothing to do with the parti gene.
Skyes dont carry the parti gene.

Unfortunately, this is only a part of an article written years ago, but it looks like parti color has been seen in the Skye terrier.

"Skye Terrier Club Officers Quit In Dispute on Parti-Color Coats" 1966

Skye Terrier Club Officers Quit In Dispute on Parti-Color Coats - Article - NYTimes.com

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by jencar98

Thank you for posting this, very interesting too.



It is hard to tell from an old photo but this dogs nose looks black in the pic, and wouldn't an albino have a pink/lighter color nose?

Also, do you know for a fact that Skye's do not carry the parti gene or is that your opinion? I don't know and haven't read this before, so am wondering if your information is factual?

I have been i n Skyes for years.

[yorkiegirl2]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Unfortunately, this is only a part of an article written years ago, but it looks like parti color has been seen in the Skye terrier.

"Skye Terrier Club Officers Quit In Dispute on Parti-Color Coats" 1966

Skye Terrier Club Officers Quit In Dispute on Parti-Color Coats - Article - NYTimes.com

Interesting find.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

In AKC's desperate quest for added income our breed has been forced to allow the registering of a color and color pattern that was never intended by those who set the origional yorkshire terrier type, coat and color. That is the travsety of this whole fiasco with both Biewers and parti color yorkies.

exactly