IFyou read the whole thread I have not one time attacked or said anything bad to or about a YTCA member or said anything about cheating, or lying breeders.

Do you show your own show prospects or do you hire a handler? If you hire a handler most are experts at coloring coat.

I never stated one time I did not have a good experience while I was showing my yorkies! What gave me a sour taste as far as showing was all the enhancing which goes on with showing dogs. It is very devasting to grow out your show prospect, which is an absolutely perfect specimen of the breed only to be told by a few ytca members to color the coat because it is to light! At one time I had only the upmost respect and admiration for ytca members and I believed in their beliefs. It is hard to believe in people after you find out the standard only benefits them when it needs to.

Gee, why are you asking us anything? You are the first person to ever have the perfect specimen of the breed. To think, you have all these members willing to say things to you that NONE of the rest of us know about. We are so out of the loop! Wow. I would love to see these perfect specimens.

JMHO

But if you have to enhance in order to win, then the dog did not win, the dye job did.

enhancing in anyway should not be allowed no way, to time, how how.

The right person could probably take a parti and make it look like a standard.

Or, as has been said before, the right handler could finish a dead cat.

I agree that the show world has problems of its own and is more of a beauty pageant than a venue for evaluating breeding stock. Below is a bit copied from the Polish Kennel Club's (an FCI member) regulations. It seems to me a better approach to judging dogs than what is in place in America.

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"9. In the shows only healthy dogs can be showed, having a vet health certificate. Bitches who are pregnant or are in heat may not take part in the shows.


10. Dog shows are accessible for the public, and the organizers are allowed to take entrance fees. (What they usually do. Despite of this the public comes sometimes in big numbers)


II. Rules of the Dog Shows organization

Dogs may take part only in the following classes:


a) Puppy class - age 6 to 9 months (does not count toward championship)

b) Junior class – age 9 to 18 months (does count toward junior championship only)

c) Intermediate class – age 15 to 24 months

d) Open class – age above 15 months

e) Working class – age above 15 months, with a Working Dog Certificate organized for breeds, for which work tests are needed (including Golden Retrievers) The certificate of Working Dog is given to:

- defense dogs - with at least IPO I diploma

- hunting dogs - with at least III grade diploma on contests

f) Champion class - for dogs who have the diploma of an international champion or a national champion of Poland or from a different dog registry organization accepted by FCI

g) Veteran class – age above 8 years (does not count toward championship)


III. Rules of Judgment of Dogs in Shows


In the dog show the function of the judge may only be taken by a judge certified by the general management of the Polish Kennel Club or judges invited from different countries accepted by FCI, chosen from the list of international judges. On international dog shows only international judges from organizations accepted by FCI may judge.

12. & 13. While judging a dog the judge should take into consideration inherent flaws and those that were caught, physical and psychic health. The qualifications given by the judges may be one of the following definitions:

EXCELLENT may only be awarded to a dog which comes very close to the ideal standard of the breed, which is presented in excellent condition, displays a harmonious, well-balanced temperament, is of high class and has excellent posture. Its superior characteristics in respect of its breed permit that minor imperfections can be ignored; it must however have the typical features of its sex.

VERY GOOD may only be awarded to a dog which possesses the typical features of its breed, which has well-balanced proportions and is in correct condition. A few minor faults may be tolerated but none of a morphological nature. This award can only be granted to a dog that shows class.

GOOD is to be awarded to a dog that possesses the main features of its breed however showing faults provided these are not concealed.

SUFFICIENT must be awarded to a dog which corresponds adequately to its breed, without possessing the generally accepted characteristics or whose physical condition leaves something to be desired.

DISQUALIFIED must be awarded to a dog which does not correspond to the type required by the breed standard; which shows a behavior clearly not in line with its standard or which behaves aggressively; which has testicular abnormalities; which has dental flaw or a jaw anomaly; which shows a color and/or coat imperfection or clearly shows signs of albinism. This qualification shall also be awarded to dogs that correspond so little to a single feature of the breed that their health is threatened. It should furthermore be awarded to dogs that show eliminating faults in regard to the breed standard.

Dogs that cannot be awarded one of the above qualifications shall be released from the ring with the rating:

CANNOT BE JUDGED. This rating is to be given to any dog which does not move, constantly jumps up and down on its handler or tries to get out of the ring, makes it impossible to assess the gait and the movement or avoids constantly to be examined by the judge and makes it impossible to inspect teeth, anatomy and structure, tail or testicles. This rating is also to be given if traces of operations or treatment can be observed which seem to indicate that the exhibitor wanted to deceive the judge. The same applies if the judge has ample reason to suspect operations that were intended to correct the original condition or feature (e.g.: eyelid, ear or tail). The reason why the dog was rated CANNOT BE JUDGED has to be stated in the judge’s report.

The four best dogs in each class are placed provided that they have been awarded at least the qualification “Very Good”."

From this link... Polish Kennel Club and FCI Regulations

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Of course, partis would be disqualified under these rules also, due to the breed standard. But, since so much is being said about showing, I think it's interesting to see how much of the rest of the world goes about it.

We used to put Shoe Polish on the Horses Hoofs prior to a sale or showing. Is that cheating? Anyone here dye their hair? Than again, everyone knows what a normal hoof looks like. same as braiding the mane and tail. That does not happen on its own.

Follow the standard, the standard, the standard. All about the money!

Have a great Holiday!

Thank you Jim for posting what I've thought for some time and exactly what I told my friend when she and I were discussing dyeing dogs. Showing dogs too often has become a beauty and/or popularity/familiarity contest and not really about the best representative of the breed. If that is what is accepted and expected then so be it, but it does come across as hypocritical to hold others to standards one doesn't them self honor.

Why are you so mean?

There is no perfect dog, but this dog was as close to perfect as I could live with! When a newbie starts out they have no idea all the enhancing you might need to do when showing your yorkie. If a newbie goes to the ytca website and reads the standard for the yorkie, it does not state about coloring coat or any of the other enhancing tricks. :rolleyes: Needless to say it is very misleading and somewhat of a double standard.

I don't mean to imply that the show world is full of sub-standard dogs, but I think the focus has become skewed towards the 'beauty pageant' aspect of it. As a result, you have people enhancing dogs, hiring well-known handlers and shopping for venues to get points. It's called politics, but it really does seem more like a silly game,

If you looked at the part I copied from the Polish K.C., you'll see that a dog can be judged to be excellent and not win a title. This could happen in a field of very strong competition. While the dog may not 'win', consistent 'excellent' gradings would, in my mind, validate a breeding program. It shouldn't be all about the 'win' at any cost. If a dog can't be shown in it's natural state with good competiton and do well, then that owner is only fooling him/her self.

Unfortunately, the American system is set up for one to have to 'play the game' in order to do well. This is sad as I see it as detrimental to any breed. A cynic could say that championships are questionable under a such a system as ours and that is unfair to the truly great dogs being shown.

One other thing...did you notice that, under the FCI system, a health certificate must be presented before showing any dog?

Absolutely not, and I didn't take it that way. I just think if those dogs that were enhanced were shown in their natural coat, their wins would be fewer. That is... the wins would be fewer until all exhibitor breeders showed with natural coat color, at that point it would be an even playing field with regard to traditional coat color.

That's interesting in Poland dogs can be deemed excellent and still not win a title....here it seems a dog can win a title and shouldn't have been deemed excellent:confused:

I noticed the health certificate part but wasn't real impressed with that unless it entails more than a health certificate in the States does. Working with rescue, going to dog auctions, dealing with breeders, I've seen too often vets sign off on a health certificate and only a cursory exam could have been given, if any exam at all.

I have no idea what a health certificate would entail. It could be from a cursory or detailed exam. It certainly is better than none at all.

What I pulled up from that link is from Poland but would apply to all FCI member countries. Most of the world follows these guidelines, with a few notable exceptions (U.S., Canada and England). Fédération Cynologique Internationale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

:thumbup: It would be better than none at all.

This is what I have been saying too.
Showing has become more of a beauty pageant instead of evaluating breeding stock.

Dogs should be shown natural with faults and all and judged accordingly.
Those who meet as close to the standard takes the points.

I don’t care how you look at it, it’s deceiving and cheating if the dog has to be enhanced in order to win.
I’m sure anyone would be P’ed off if you had a true coat color and your beaten by a dog who is dyed.

What is also very sad is with all the priming and coddling of the dogs, they are losing the true terrier instinct which is one of the most important aspect of the dogs.

I agree proper testing health testing should be done in order for one to be allow to show.
And it should entail the overall health of the dog along with health testing with as least a clear bile acid test.
Because what is the sense in Championing a beauty dog a genetic defects.
This defeats the purpose of breeding sound stock.

DNA should also be taken at shows in order to make sure points are being placed on the correct dogs.
Because if one has no problem dying coats what would keep someone from showing a correct dog to get points on another dog who they want Championed but does not meet the standard.

You are lying about my club, my sport and things that happen in the show world. Then say I'm mean?



I've never heard member/non members tell a newbie or anyone else to dye a dog. We have a standard that reads what it does and everyone should strive for this as correct. When you have a dog that is bred to the standard you will have a beautiful example of the breed. This is the goal, if you are not getting the correct color then you should breed out or start over. Anyone can grow a long coat out. How many points did you have on them? Were you losing to people with better color? How often were you winning? Were you having trouble with the majors? Was it a bitch after going into season? Was your yorkshire too old? Did you miss the time to show them because you were not successful? Maybe they didn't like you, maybe they were trying to get you in trouble. You've yet to mention a mentor. Not every show prospect finishes. Many of them will begin a show career only to be pulled later. Color is a big part of our standard. You had light dogs, just starting out?

Just because you say you had this experience with (the best of the best as you said LOL LOL LOL) this person it doesn't make it real. There are suckers born everyday. We aren't one of them. The best of the best LOL LOL ;) So you started showing with 3 show dogs. That is also very impressive! Must be the best line, you don't have to do much to care for them.

That is something I have always wondered about. It seems that it would be easy for someone to do this, especially the handlers that travel around to areas where no one is there that would be familiar with the dogs.

Sadly, there will always be those that cheat but that does not mean that everyone is like that. I have been to many of shows where I know the dogs won on their own merits and not because of the person behind the lead. If you want to show you just have to take you chances. You will have good days and bad days.