Need Help Feeding My Yorkie That Has Calcium Oxalate Crystals-allergic To Corn!

[irbrenda]

Originally Posted by sondra2004

What about Solid Gold Wee Bits -no corn-no wheat-no soybeans-it s potein is 28%.

28% is way too much protein. I have the same problem with Ralphie and he's been on HIlls U/D prescription food which is specifically for the calcium oxalate stones. I use both wet and dry and honestly, as gross as the food looks and probably is, he's been doing very well. The ingredients are truly disgusting but I had the choice of keeping him on his regular food and supplementing him for the rest of his life with the potassium citrate pills, or, us the Hills stuff and forego any pills, which is what I've elected to do for now. He has already had the surgery and I would never ever want him to go thru it again.

One food that I showed to the vet was from The Honest Kitchen...I think it was The Force stuff. It's the closest I could come to organic food that might be acceptable for his condition. However, it contained a high percentage of some vegetable, I forget which right now, that was not good for the stones, but all the other ingredients might work. I would have supplemented him with the pills as a safety precaution. For now, I have to stay with the Hills stuff and I do not like the corn or the other ingredients in there. I don't know how they call it food!

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by irbrenda

28% is way too much protein. I have the same problem with Ralphie and he's been on HIlls U/D prescription food which is specifically for the calcium oxalate stones. I use both wet and dry and honestly, as gross as the food looks and probably is, he's been doing very well. The ingredients are truly disgusting but I had the choice of keeping him on his regular food and supplementing him for the rest of his life with the potassium citrate pills, or, us the Hills stuff and forego any pills, which is what I've elected to do for now. He has already had the surgery and I would never ever want him to go thru it again.

One food that I showed to the vet was from The Honest Kitchen...I think it was The Force stuff. It's the closest I could come to organic food that might be acceptable for his condition. However, it contained a high percentage of some vegetable, I forget which right now, that was not good for the stones, but all the other ingredients might work. I would have supplemented him with the pills as a safety precaution. For now, I have to stay with the Hills stuff and I do not like the corn or the other ingredients in there. I don't know how they call it food!

This is the info i found on line... it says: (taken from Wikipedia)

There is no recommended diet to dissolve calcium oxalate stones.
For prevention a diet low in protein and oxalates and high in magnesium, phosphorus, and calcium is recommended. Increased dietary magnesium and phosphorus decreases the amount of calcium in the urine, and increased dietary calcium reduces absorption of oxalates from the intestines.[6]

Potassium citrate has been recommended as a preventative for calcium oxalate stone formation because it forms a soluble complex with oxalates and promotes the formation of alkaline urine.

so after reading that info,I am assuming a diet that is:

low in protein and oxalates
high in magnesium
high in phosphorus
high in calcium

* low in fat (to help control and lose weight)



I am just trying to understand why the vet gave us this hill W/D food that is exactly the opposite of the info i found on line? B/C PER THE INFO WE FOUND ON WIKIPEDIA... IS SAYS "HIGH" MAGNESIUM AND "HIGH" PHOSPHORUS -and these ingredients are lower in the the food she prescribed. I do think she was allergic to "corn" so that is why i am skeptical.

this is what the hills pres diet w/d with Chicken Canine it used for:

For Weight Control and the Nutritional Management of Fiber Responsive Diseases, Excess weight, diabetes and digestive troubles can cause problems for your dog. Feeding the right food can help your pet live a healthier lifestyle. Prescription Diet® w/d® with Chicken Canine dog food, with its fiber rich formula, may be useful as a nutritional aid for dogs with fiber responsive diseases such as diabetes mellitus, colitis, diarrhea, constipation, and to help manage overweight dogs, including those with struvite urolithiasis. The nutritional formulation of Prescription Diet® w/d® may also be useful for pets with a variety of conditions


[COLOR="Yellow"]Product Characteristics for Hills pres diet-W/D:
Carnitine:High
Magnesium :Reduced
Calories:Low
Phosphorus:Reduced
Fat:Low
Sodium:Low
Fiber:Increased [/COLOR]

[irbrenda]

I was given the W/D a few months back when Ralphie suddenly had a bleeding episode from his behind. The emergency vet took him off the U/D thinking it was way too low in protein for him to be on and she put him on the W/D for a few days. When I returned to my own vet a few days thereafter, I questioned why his other vet changed his diet to W/D which is not good for these type of stones. His answer was: Actually, it is interchangeable and it wouldn't do him any harm by staying on the W/D. Ralphie actually lost a little weight on it which he could use because the U/D has a high fat content and caused him to gain about 1/2 to 3/4 lb.

No matter how little I feed him, the excess weight never comes off. I don't give him any treats other than what I'm told to do.....make strips from the canned U/D, bake it in the oven and give him one treat every few days. Sounds mean, but so far it's working well for him. I fear watching him urinate that there should be any more blood ever again. It was a horror.

The W/D canned food is like feeding gooey glue. It's worse than the U/D which is more gel-like, also disgusting, just not as bad.

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by irbrenda

I was given the W/D a few months back when Ralphie suddenly had a bleeding episode from his behind. The emergency vet took him off the U/D thinking it was way too low in protein for him to be on and she put him on the W/D for a few days. When I returned to my own vet a few days thereafter, I questioned why his other vet changed his diet to W/D which is not good for these type of stones. His answer was: Actually, it is interchangeable and it wouldn't do him any harm by staying on the W/D. Ralphie actually lost a little weight on it which he could use because the U/D has a high fat content and caused him to gain about 1/2 to 3/4 lb.

No matter how little I feed him, the excess weight never comes off. I don't give him any treats other than what I'm told to do.....make strips from the canned U/D, bake it in the oven and give him one treat every few days. Sounds mean, but so far it's working well for him. I fear watching him urinate that there should be any more blood ever again. It was a horror.

The W/D canned food is like feeding gooey glue. It's worse than the U/D which is more gel-like, also disgusting, just not as bad.

I plan on talking to the vet tomorrow in regards to finding a food that does not contain the main ingredient as corn. Samie did not do well on that Purina Pres NF diet. The nf diet said the first ingredient was whole grain corn.

and this hills pres diet W/D shows the first ingredient as corn grian. I don't there is much of a difference there... it's still corn and i am very hestitate to put her back on a diet that has corn listed as the first ingredient. my little dog is now going on her 3 rd week since she has been off of the nf diet and she is doing much better now.

[sadiesamie]

i was also told that vets don't know much when it comes to nutrition. i just think there has got to be something else out there with either rice or barley- instead of corn.

[irbrenda]

I wish I could find something else too. I know you have to be very very careful with their diet when it comes to stones. I feel mean feeding him the Hills stuff but like I said, the worst feeling is ever seeing the bloody urine again. And there's no guarantee that it won't come back even using the prescription foods. I'm told there's just less of a chance of it recurring if you're prudent with their diet. And corn doesn't thrill me as a main ingredient at all.

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by irbrenda

I wish I could find something else too. I know you have to be very very careful with their diet when it comes to stones. I feel mean feeding him the Hills stuff but like I said, the worst feeling is ever seeing the bloody urine again. And there's no guarantee that it won't come back even using the prescription foods. I'm told there's just less of a chance of it recurring if you're prudent with their diet. And corn doesn't thrill me as a main ingredient at all.

I believe Samie is allergic to the corn. it made her scoot immediatley after eating and after a bowel movement. she then was uncomfortable, she panted more, then her trachea collapses. My husband also will not let her eat this food until we try to see if something else is out there, he researched wikipedia and it said totally the opposite when it came to the values and percentages of the foods. if the vet wants her to be on this food strictly to lose weight and do the potassium granules too. maybe there is an alternative food to feed her and still use the granules.

are you giving your dog potassium citrate granules or did you say you were giving something in a pill form?

[sadiesamie]

samie has not had stones. only crystals in her urine. she has not had surgery.

[irbrenda]

Ralphie had crystals and stones so he needed the surgery. No, I don't use the potassium citrate at all because I'm using the Hills U/D and I'm also using PH strips weekly to test his urine. If I see it go low, then I'll have to use the supplement. So far he's good. His weight has leveled off but I think alot had to do with neutering him at the same time as his stone surgery. He was 5 yrs old when I did it.....he's a little over 5-1/2 now. And he also has a collapsed trachea since he's 5 months old. It's only noticeable when he gets excited about going out for a walk.

[sadiesamie]

I am not having any luck. Apparently we are the only ones having problems with Calcium oxalate crystals. the vet told me what's more important? the scooting? or the crystals? I can't have her scooting and being sick from being on the pres food?? this was not an occasional scoot? she was sickly and cried very bad when she scooted. I can't listen to her cry like that and i am trying to be persistant with the vet by telling her that hills is not the only company that makes pres dog food. I am getting no where. and I can't believe that "no one" else here is dealing with crystals? Vet told me it's very common and that most dogs are not allergic to corn? All i have read on this forum is that a lot of dogs "are" allergic to corn. and my little dog is highly allergic to it.

I wish she wasn't... but she is. and i have to feed her "something" every day. in the mean time she is eating Canidae which i have read on this forum that it is a great food.

BUT- as we speak my little girl is forming crystals. I need to do something quick!!!!!!!! her last urinalysis the vet said she had 10+ scales and she had been off of the pres diet only 2 days and she was forming crystals that quick and in mass amounts.

I am running out of time. I don't want my poor little dog to form stones. We do not know with her trachea issues if she can be strong enough for a surgery. I am so desperate. I cannot find any help. No websites... nothing. i am so upset and frustrated. I cannot find a solution.

No one has responded with a helpful diet and i am close to giving up. I do not know what else to do for her??? I can't give her the food the vet wants me to feed her and I can't find anyone on this forum that is experiencing the same thing. vet told me to feed her the canidae and have her urine checked in one month and not to be surprised if we need to make changes.

calcium oxalate crystals... anyone? please... desperately need your help!

[kalina82]

when you say she's allergic to the corn, how do you know exactly? what did she do that made you think she was allergic to the food?

[sadiesamie]

Originally Posted by kalina82

when you say she's allergic to the corn, how do you know exactly? what did she do that made you think she was allergic to the food?

she would eat and then as soon as she finished eating, she would run to the rug i have in my kitchen and sit abruptly. then scoot and cry. then she would lay down and look pathetic, sickly and cry and scoot some more. then maybe an hour would go by and she would go outside to poop and then scoot immediately after. this has been a nightmare.... she would wake me up in the middle of the night crying and then same thing- scoot... she made herself raw from scooting.. vet kept saying it's her anal glands... no it wasn't- we tried emptying her anal glands and nothing to empty.

i video taped her eating. video taped what she does. as soon as i abruptly took her off of that food and gave her the canidae. BAM! no more scooting. The hills pres diet has almost identical ingredients as the purina... I do not know if it was the corn for sure but I am not in no way giving her a food with the same ingredients. she developed allergies, an ear infect in both ears and a yeast infection. we believe she was suffering an allergic reaction in her digestive tract. she has not scooted since 6/22. and she is started to feel better from what the other food did to her. it was very sad. we thought we were going to loose her.

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by sadiesamie

she would eat and then as soon as she finished eating, she would run to the rug i have in my kitchen and sit abruptly. then scoot and cry. then she would lay down and look pathetic, sickly and cry and scoot some more. then maybe an hour would go by and she would go outside to poop and then scoot immediately after. this has been a nightmare.... she would wake me up in the middle of the night crying and then same thing- scoot... she made herself raw from scooting.. vet kept saying it's her anal glands... no it wasn't- we tried emptying her anal glands and nothing to empty.

i video taped her eating. video taped what she does. as soon as i abruptly took her off of that food and gave her the canidae. BAM! no more scooting. The hills pres diet has almost identical ingredients as the purina... I do not know if it was the corn for sure but I am not in no way giving her a food with the same ingredients. she developed allergies, an ear infect in both ears and a yeast infection. we believe she was suffering an allergic reaction in her digestive tract. she has not scooted since 6/22. and she is started to feel better from what the other food did to her. it was very sad. we thought we were going to loose her.

the only reason i question her allergies to the prescription food is because scooting right after eating is not a typical sign of allergies. scooting has to do with anal glands or an itchy but, and for her to do it immediately after eating is too soon for it to be bothering her butt. maybe it was a coincidence?

If i were in this situation, i would try another prescription food like Royal Canine (even tho the ingredients are simliar) to see if the same thing happens before totally giving up on the prescription food.

Other then that i really don't know what else to tell you. She needs to be on a diet that will control her crystal buildup, or else she's going to need surgery. This is one of those situations where you have to way the consequences of each option.

[sadiesamie]

samie didn't look good immediately after she ate. Something was taking place while she was eating.. she would start to eat, then about halfway through, run away from her dish and sit down really fast. like she had been shot in the behind. then she would finish eating, sit down abruptly and then go and lay down. she would not scoot like an "anal gland needing emptyied scoot..." she would like "try" to scoot. While she was still sitting, her hind legs would come up. And she would put her head real far down to the floor, her ears flat and when you tried to talk to her she turned her head.

The "typical samie" would kiss you immediately when she got down in front of her. (she is a very lovable dog)... but she would act very weird and then then will finally lay down and sleep. she was very mopey. this is why she put on weight. A few times she would not even wake up when I came home from work. Normally she would bark like mad when I was walking up the driveway...... I could hear both of my dogs barking. My other yorkie would bark when I come in the door, and sometimes samie didn't wake up? How did Sadie not wake her? She would wake up right when I come in the door, but she sometimes was in a deep sleep.

Her nomal behavior immediately started appearing again once i changed her to the Canidae food. ( I know she cannot stay on this food, but I have to feed her until i find an alternate food) She went through an immediate change after stopping that NF formula food. Her belly gurgled a tiny bit, the vet said to give her 1/4 pepcid ac and it helped her a lot. After 2 days- big time improvement! She will even run after my other dog and play. (sadie seems to know when her sister doesn't feel well) and for days she knew to leave samie alone :-)

so now her tail started wagging again, she is back in the window with my other dog ....barking with her... (they have doggie steps to get up on the couch)she even barks to get me out of bed every morning again. Samie didn't bark much as time went on. She was never feeling good. Every day i came home wondering if she would pass away and my heart would pound b/c she was not up in the window with sadie!!! I still worry about her every day. Some mornings while on this other food she would breath heavily and cough a lot in the mornings. I was so afraid to leave her. I was given hydromet to give her for her trachea collapse. It is hydrocodone. I only give it to her when she absolutely needs it.

But each day that passed OFF of this food that caused her problems, she is better. she pants a little still sometimes, i think her ears are still bothering her alittle. She was being treated for her ear infections and the build up of the medication on the exterior of her ears caused both ears to become very red last w/end I noticed that she was scratching and itching at her ears and she would shake her head. I had been very familar with the inside of her ears b/c I had been cleaning then every other day (she had a build up of wax her left ear but- I was cleaning both)
So anyway- after i put her med drops in, she would shake her head and it would get on her ears. I even swabbed them lightly with a qtip after placing the drops in so less would leak out.. after her ears became badly inflamed we have discontinued the drops!


I took a look at her ears over the w/end- I decided she needed a bath too. Samie's tongue sometimes will turn blue if you put the water over head and if she gets water up her nose. I always cup my hand over her head and am so very careful but sometimes she still would have a hard time. I even stopped using conditioner on her b/c the heavy scent would cause her to have a hard time breathing. So yeah bath time makes me nervous too... Then when I dry her with the blowdryer she rolls around like a crazy dog b/c she is happy and clean. sometimes while she is squirrming around so much and i try to calm her down and she just goes crazy. she isn't even aware of what she is doing to herself?? the underside of her tongue (2 stripes on each side turn dark purple) and the top of her tongue a light gray. OOOOOOMG!! Freaks me out every time.

So I try to bathe her only like every 6 wks. Keep her short so she dries faster.... stress... stress...stress...


She is being seen at the vet this Saturday again b/c the vet can't prescribe something else w/o seeing her. Today she was purky- ears don't seem to bother her anymore...she is fluffy and clean, and she even went running after sadie last week and she hurt her back left leg. I have rugs throughout my whole house and carpet. but she runs after sadie like as if she is 100 lb dog.
so... let me tell you... it's been one thing after another. but hey- after all- she "is" feeling better not on the Purina NF diet)

but -I know whe will need to be on something else for her crystals.
i just do not know what???
I am VERY VERY VERY.............................................. .................... hesitant to place her on Hills W/D with adding potassium crystals... that food has almost the exact same ingredients as the one that messed her up.
And she still may have an ear infection in both ears, she is being treated also for a yeast infection.

I am exhausted.... I have researched every day... for hours on end.... reading food labels.... talking to different vets.....finding one thing on line.... and then hearing something the opposite..... IThe vet said her calcium, phosphorus and magnesium need to be low... but how low? the vet did not give me %'s
I started comparing ingredients in the Purnia NF and also the Hills Pres W/D. I have both foods in my pantry.

(The vet was closing when I went there to purchase the Hills food... so i quickly bought it) i came home and compared it to the other bag and was like no way... there has got to be another food!!! these are almost identical.

so now...in the meantime, for 2 wks now- samie is on a food where I am completely 100% positive that she is forming LARGE amounts of crystals. BUT..... I know one thing for sure- I can't "NOT" feed her...

For 2 wks... I have wracked my brain... worried sick...
I have tried to limit the amounts of her food. b/c I do not know if the canned it better for her or not? I also don't want to start something that I may have to take away from her. She Loves the canned food. LOVES IT!

It is the Innova senior canned. it is low in cal, mag and phos. BUT...it is good for her? I think? I don't really know? The vet said these values needed to be low. But how low??? And she also eats the canidae... she gets as her main food. maybe 1/4 cup or less a day is all she eats of that.

The vet said if I am comfortable feeding the canidae canned then do it for one month. She needs to help me better than that. yeah right... spoil the crap out of her for one solid month on canned food... and then find out we have to go back to kibble. does she know how smart yorkies are? apparently not. :-)

The vet told me to find something I am comfortable feeding... then and have her do a urinalysis again in 4 wks. but not to do both canned and kibble.
I need her canned food to give her her allergy pill 2 x a day.

feed her what I am "comfortable" with heck I have no idea what to feed her????????? Do i have the luxury of waiting a whole month to see how well she does on this food?

When she was on the Purina Nf, she wasn't making huge progress. after 2 months on this food she went from 4+ crystals then to 2+ crystals. after I changed her food to the canidae- 2 days later she had a urinalysis and she was producing 10+ crystals. hmmm only 2 days off the pres diet??? so either the pres diet was not working as good OR the canidae.... in just 2 days....made her produce more crystals?

I have no idea what i am doing? I know that i do have to feed her every day too.

i am still hoping and praying that someone here will help me make some good decisions and offer good advice b/c I really do not know what the vet is going to say tomorrow to my husband. I have no idea if anything else is out there that she can eat?


this is crazy... my streak of bad luck can't get any worse... i think i have an ulcer...

i am done babbling. I felt i wanted to give you an abundance of info i guess :-)


I do have 2 videos of her. One of her what she does after she eats. and another take while she is eating and when she is finished. -while she was eating the other food. one is 40 sec long. the other is 4 min. there is no way to edit the video but it was the whole time she was eating and after eating.

[kalina82]

i know you said you've seen a couple of vets. Have you tried a vet who specializes in nutrition? maybe they can find out what percentages of what needs to be in the foods and then you can find a commercial food like that OR she can tell you how to home cook and achieve the same results.