Dog nutrition - what is BEST for you and your dog?

[hugz4all4]

IM definitly no dog food expert and all the research that has been listed is interesting but its all stuff that I have read numerous times and I have a hard time believing most of it... and I have 4 dogs (diff. sizes, ages and breeds) that will tell you otherwise.. I am a firm believer that not all dogs can thrive on a high protien all meat diets. I have one dog that is on a prescription diet for life, due to a fatty blood condition that was triggered by a high protein diet. I have another dog that thanks in part to my NEED to make sure I was feeding them the best I could cant tolerate any protien level over 26 percent without getting violently ill and has allergies to just about everything that he is on a grain free limited diet that consists of lamb, peas and potatoes. I get that some dogs do awesome on all meat diets but most dont..despite what ever findings you read on the internet. If you are pro something you can find a ton of research to support that cause. I will stick to what my vet has to tell me and what reasearch she has done and what my dogs "tell me" when it comes to their food.
Bottom line is that you need to feed your pets what they will eat and do the best on.. if that means pedigree dog food than so be it......

[Britster]

Originally Posted by hugz4all4

IM definitly no dog food expert and all the research that has been listed is interesting but its all stuff that I have read numerous times and I have a hard time believing most of it... and I have 4 dogs (diff. sizes, ages and breeds) that will tell you otherwise.. I am a firm believer that not all dogs can thrive on a high protien all meat diets. I have one dog that is on a prescription diet for life, due to a fatty blood condition that was triggered by a high protein diet. I have another dog that thanks in part to my NEED to make sure I was feeding them the best I could cant tolerate any protien level over 26 percent without getting violently ill and has allergies to just about everything that he is on a grain free limited diet that consists of lamb, peas and potatoes. I get that some dogs do awesome on all meat diets but most dont..despite what ever findings you read on the internet. If you are pro something you can find a ton of research to support that cause. I will stick to what my vet has to tell me and what reasearch she has done and what my dogs "tell me" when it comes to their food.
Bottom line is that you need to feed your pets what they will eat and do the best on.. if that means pedigree dog food than so be it......

While I do agree what works for some dogs won't work for others... I definitely wouldn't say most dogs don't well on it because that's simply not the case. I find it very rare and odd that ALL four of your dogs couldn't tolerate it. I totally believe you, I'm not saying you're lying, it just really shocks me... it's definitely a rarity and not something that is common. High protein in general should not cause ANY issues... it's where the protein is coming from. If you have a high protein food but the protein is coming from crappy things, THEN it's gonna cause issues. Obviously all of us that are pro high-protein diets have done research or there wouldn't be pages and pages of qualified research posted in this thread alone. Now, with me personally, I am for raw food but I don't have the means to do it... I don't have the money, the freezer space, the knowledge or the time to prepare it. So that's why I don't feed raw. However, I am 100% confident in the food I am feeding my dog (as well as many others I know) so I think in VERY rare cases do dogs NOT do well on high protein diets. I still would never recommend Pedigree, even if my dog seemed to do well on it. Many dogs SEEM to do well on crappy foods but it will sometimes show up later in the dogs life.

[pawever Yorkie]

Originally Posted by Britster

While I do agree what works for some dogs won't work for others... I definitely wouldn't say most dogs don't well on it because that's simply not the case. I find it very rare and odd that ALL four of your dogs couldn't tolerate it. I totally believe you, I'm not saying you're lying, it just really shocks me... it's definitely a rarity and not something that is common. High protein in general should not cause ANY issues... it's where the protein is coming from. If you have a high protein food but the protein is coming from crappy things, THEN it's gonna cause issues. Obviously all of us that are pro high-protein diets have done research or there wouldn't be pages and pages of qualified research posted in this thread alone. Now, with me personally, I am for raw food but I don't have the means to do it... I don't have the money, the freezer space, the knowledge or the time to prepare it. So that's why I don't feed raw. However, I am 100% confident in the food I am feeding my dog (as well as many others I know) so I think in VERY rare cases do dogs NOT do well on high protein diets. I still would never recommend Pedigree, even if my dog seemed to do well on it. Many dogs SEEM to do well on crappy foods but it will sometimes show up later in the dogs life.

Agree!
So far all my 5 yorkies are loving raw diet, and they've never looked so excited for any food like raw. I've been asking people in dog park if they feed raw, and I met about 5 people (11dogs) who's been feeding raw without any problem at all. I haven't met anyone who had bad experience with raw. I'm sure there are dogs who didn't do well with raw as well as there are dogs who didn't do well with some kibbles.

[Ringo1]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Dogs have spleens unless they undergo a spleenectomy.

Not sure what is meant about dogs not being able to do well on vegetarian diets. There would be many Yorkies in trouble if that were the case.

AAFCO is not perfect and there are two ways to get a diet approved. One is a nutrient analysis and the other is a feeding trial (done on the life stage that is represented on the bag/can). The latter may be preferred and is a good indicator of how dogs will do on the food.

Here is a study:
Cat Fanciers' Association: Role of Diet

that shows what can go wrong. Apparently rabbit isn't deficient in taurine, but the cats couldn't absorb it. And it looks like their vitamin e levels were low. My point being is that there is no clear answer here that this is the best diet...far from it. And this 10% one type of meat and 15% that type of meat...nto sure where that is coming from, but wonder where they came up with it at.

I don't understand the part in the earlier post (not yours Ellie) that 'most dogs with liver disease do not need low protein diets'. I can see the immediate effect on Lucy when she consumes too much meat protein such as beef. Many people that have liver diseased dogs have kept them ALIVE using low protein and 'liver friendly protein' ie - not meat. Internists that treat and follow dogs with liver disease have protocols they follow - and low protein is often part of that protocol UNLESS your dog is not symptomatic.

So while I have no partiular issue with feeding raw; I don't like raw feeders trying to push protein on my MVD dog. Certain proteins - yes. Any ole kind of meat protein - NO. HE symptoms will then rear their ugly head. And anyone who has experienced these know how frightening it can be. Directly related to the amount and type of protein in the system.

[Melcakes]

Originally Posted by Melcakes
The intestines of dogs are much much shorter than an omnivores such as ours. Their teeth are sharper for ripping and tearing, they have no spleen.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Unless my vet has removed it without me knowing, all my dogs still have their spleens

Ha. Oh boy. YES of course dogs have spleens unless they have been removed. I just noticed a large chunk of what I wrote is missing in that paragraph - I must have deleted it when editing. I had some interesting info about dogs without spleens. I'll post it later when I can find the article I was reading. At any rate I think dogs having spleens (unless removed of course) can be something easily agreed upon by all.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom
Humans aren't designed to smoke cigarettes, yet some smokers live to be over a 100yrs old and claim to have have great health. My point is, a body can thrive under lots of variable circumstances. It's no different for dogs.

Originally Posted by Melcakes
These long lived smokers in great health aren't a dime a dozen. More like diamonds in the rough if you ask me. I know you're just using it as an example that it can happen and I suppose it can happen or has, but I think most people know when you smoke or "put something in your body that nature didn't design - or which you have no need for" you will suffer more than you will thrive.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom
With all kindness (and I'm not arguing)...my point really wasn't about smoking. My point was really this:

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom
My point is, a body can thrive under lots of variable circumstances. It's no different for dogs.

I fully understood what your point was and as I said I know you were just using it as an example (not a literal one). My response was that while I understand a body can" survive" I wouldn't say "necessarily thrive" the chances of it doing so or the percentage of those "surviving" when exposing themselves to known toxins/dangers are so slim.

Sometimes it takes us humans time to figure out that it's not nice to mess with Mother Nature. We're learning some of those lessons the hard way... like when we read about dioxins, PCBs, and other toxins being present in human breast milk. It seems that if we've learned anything it should be to proceed with extreme caution when we're heading in a different direction than what Mother Nature prescribes.

[Melcakes]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Not sure what is meant about dogs not being able to do well on vegetarian diets. There would be many Yorkies in trouble if that were the case.

AAFCO is not perfect and there are two ways to get a diet approved. One is a nutrient analysis and the other is a feeding trial (done on the life stage that is represented on the bag/can). The latter may be preferred and is a good indicator of how dogs will do on the food.

Most veg. fed dogs do not do well at all and what is meant by that from the reading/research I've done is that a lot end up with stunted growth, and malnourishment among many other things. Most studies on dogs that are vegetarian have shown dogs to be severely lacking in basic nutritional needs, particularly calcium. It's not an optimal diet. Sure dogs can "survive" on it (those on it due to allergies and digestive problems more so). Dogs can "survive" on a lot of things, but personally I want my dog to "thrive". I don't think anyone is making a blanket statement that no dog can eat a veg diet, that would be completely fallacious. Luckily, vegetarian fed dogs do get protein although the amounts aren't usually excessive and the proteins are of a low quality. Veg. fed dogs get their "protein" through nuts and seeds, pulses, soya product among other things. Ovo-vegetarians give their dogs eggs then there are Lacto-vegetarians to feed their dogs dairy products but disapprove of eggs.

Plant foods do contain protein but this is the problem: Proteins are made up of smaller units called amino acids. There are about 20 different amino acids, eight of which must be present in the diet. These are the essential amino acids. Unlike animal proteins, plant proteins may do not contain all the essential amino acids in the necessary proportions - that's a problem since proteins are needed for growth and repair and play a role in all biological processes in the body (Muscle contraction, immune protection, the transmission of nerve impulse, structural support, source of energy, etc., etc. etc.) Also if digestibility is the factor that determines how much of the nutrients are absorbed then we can all agree I think that a properly devised diet with highly digestive nutrients should form the base for optimal health. Studies show that vegetables are basically useless by dogs and they get little nutrional value from them. With veggies making up a large portion of a veg. fed dog that seems like a big issue.

Sure a feeding trial is probably a better indicator, but the AAFCO feeding trials are a joke. The weren't designed to measure the long term effects of diets. The trials consist of at least 8 dogs, fed the same diet for only 26 weeks. During this time, 25% of the dogs can be removed from the test. Dogs eating the food can lose up to 15% of their weight and condition and the food will still pass the test and be labeled complete and balanced. I'm sure if you extrapolate these figures to the number of animals eating this food for much longer than 26 weeks and you will have much more of a problem. If a food caused dogs to start losing condition over the 26 week period yet still passed, imagine how many animals would fail to thrive in real life while being fed this food for years.. I don't think studies with standards like this are good or real indicators of how dogs will do...I'd be very interested in looking at the full AAFCO studies though...

[Melcakes]

What I'd really like to know is 1) Why Zoey has always "RUN" away from any type of kibble whenever I tried to feed it to her 2) Why she is also not interested in wet food even if I put a piece in her mouth she would always spits it right out 3) Why when I home-cooked for Zoey she would eat things for a few days then hate everything and not touch it with a 10 ft pole and also she would spit out all veggies either given raw or steamed - don't tell me I'm a bad cook with this one because I'm definitely not.

Now was Zoey trying to tell me something when I try these diets above to her or what? Lol. Oh if dogs could only talk..

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Melcakes

Most veg. fed dogs do not do well at all and what is meant by that from the reading/research I've done is that a lot end up with stunted growth, and malnourishment among many other things. Most studies on dogs that are vegetarian have shown dogs to be severely lacking in basic nutritional needs, particularly calcium. It's not an optimal diet. Sure dogs can "survive" on it (those on it due to allergies and digestive problems more so). Dogs can "survive" on a lot of things, but personally I want my dog to "thrive". I don't think anyone is making a blanket statement that no dog can eat a veg diet, that would be completely fallacious. Luckily, vegetarian fed dogs do get protein although the amounts aren't usually excessive and the proteins are of a low quality. Veg. fed dogs get their "protein" through nuts and seeds, pulses, soya product among other things. Ovo-vegetarians give their dogs eggs then there are Lacto-vegetarians to feed their dogs dairy products but disapprove of eggs.

Plant foods do contain protein but this is the problem: Proteins are made up of smaller units called amino acids. There are about 20 different amino acids, eight of which must be present in the diet. These are the essential amino acids. Unlike animal proteins, plant proteins may do not contain all the essential amino acids in the necessary proportions - that's a problem since proteins are needed for growth and repair and play a role in all biological processes in the body (Muscle contraction, immune protection, the transmission of nerve impulse, structural support, source of energy, etc., etc. etc.) Also if digestibility is the factor that determines how much of the nutrients are absorbed then we can all agree I think that a properly devised diet with highly digestive nutrients should form the base for optimal health. Studies show that vegetables are basically useless by dogs and they get little nutrional value from them. With veggies making up a large portion of a veg. fed dog that seems like a big issue.

Sure a feeding trial is probably a better indicator, but the AAFCO feeding trials are a joke. The weren't designed to measure the long term effects of diets. The trials consist of at least 8 dogs, fed the same diet for only 26 weeks. During this time, 25% of the dogs can be removed from the test. Dogs eating the food can lose up to 15% of their weight and condition and the food will still pass the test and be labeled complete and balanced. I'm sure if you extrapolate these figures to the number of animals eating this food for much longer than 26 weeks and you will have much more of a problem. If a food caused dogs to start losing condition over the 26 week period yet still passed, imagine how many animals would fail to thrive in real life while being fed this food for years.. I don't think studies with standards like this are good or real indicators of how dogs will do...I'd be very interested in looking at the full AAFCO studies though...

I have to disagree on vegetarian diets. My dog is on a vegetarian diet for over 5 years. Her blood work is perfect and she is deficient in nothing. The board certified veterinary nutritionist that formulated the diet for her has certified that it is complete and balanced. She is not stunted. She is beautiful and thriving and her condition is optimal just like all of my dogs.

[pawever Yorkie]

[QUOTE=Melcakes;3202068]What I'd really like to know is 1) Why Zoey has always "RUN" away from any type of kibble whenever I tried to feed it to her 2) Why she is also not interested in wet food even if I put a piece in her mouth she would always spits it right out 3) Why when I home-cooked for Zoey she would eat things for a few days then hate everything and not touch it with a 10 ft pole and also she would spit out all veggies either given raw or steamed - don't tell me I'm a bad cook with this one because I'm definitely not.

[finns_mum]

Originally Posted by Yorkiedaze

OMG addevo and yorkiepuppy, I'm not sure if you "really" want to know what I cook up and freeze! I can tell you but not sure if your really ready for this:

10 pounds of red meat. (I use ground Bison ) You can buy inexpensive roasts and have the butcher grind it which is generally cheaper than buying the meat already ground. It’s also leaner to buy the roast and have ground).
6 packages of calf liver (cover with water, boil till done then put in the refrigerator till very cold. (save the liver broth)
2 cup of wild rice
2 cup gourmet field blend black mahogany rice (Lundberg Wehani Brand) I get these as Lassens in Santa Maria.
2 cup gourmet aromatic whole grain brown rice (Lundberg Wehani Brand)
1 cup split peas
1 cup lentils
1 cup whole grain millet (I buy at Lassens)
1 cup whole grain barley
2 cups dried vegetable mix Grain?Free Natural Dog Food - Veg-To-Bowl - Dr. Harvey's
3 large heads of broccoli, slightly steamed. Put in either the freezer or refrigerator to stop the cooking process.
Depending on the amount of time each ingredient takes to cook, you will be adding only two or three of the ingredients at a time. Look on the cooking directions.
I cook the split peas and lentils in some of the liver broth and five cloves of garlic till the split peas and lentils are crisp tender then discard the garlic cloves.
Cook the vegetables in two cups of the liver broth for about 5 minutes (covered) and five garlic cloves, turn off the heat and allow the vegetables to absorb the liver broth. Discard the garlic cloves.
Grind the meat and broccoli till fine and add all ingredients together in a VERY large pan. Mix well and put in plastic containers and freeze.

I don't use poultry, but if you would like to boil or bake up a small turkey and grind it with the other meats, it will certainly make enough food to last quite a long time depending on how many dogs you are feeding. (If you do cook a turkey to add, then you can then increase the other four grains from 1 cup to 2 cups each). I'm feeding 5 dogs right now and the recipe I make up feeds them 1/4 rounded cup twice daily for 45 to 50 days if I feed only this, but I like giving them scrambled eggs and oatmeal for breakfast once in awhile, salmon and sweet potatoes once in awhile and so on. I also like giving them a light lunch of Yogurt & berries.
My foster, Porkchop is on a diet, so she will get 1/4 of the mix with some grated carrots, baby bok-choy and snow peas. (plus two walks a day)
I make the HEALTHY POWDER and put a teaspoon over their food twice a day along with Omega 3, & 6 gel cap split between them.

i'm curious about what you do for their teeth? since dry dog kibble is supposed to be good for Yorkie teeth, do you give your dogs any bones or hard treats/supplements to their diet?
thanks,
Finns mum (and now Lola too!)

[Ellie May]

Not all dogs like raw. So does that mean the ones who don't like raw are just oddballs who don't know what's good for them?

I'm getting more confused. I'm just saying that nobody has proven to me that this is a healthier and safer diet and kibble will be number one until somebody can. Before I feed something, I want to be reasonable confident that it won't do more harm than good. I am not yet convinced that raw meet that criteria for me. Also, I do think AAFCO is a minimal requirement and each dog should be monitored by their owner. I also think that reviews on the internet about things going wrong with certain brands of kibble (i.e. Nutro) should not be overlooked.

And while I definitely don't prefer kibble, there are many dogs doing fantastic on rx diets. I know a lot of people on YT say they would never feed this kind of garbage (and I probably have said it before too), but when you are in a spot where your dog is sick and everything else has been tried, I'm sure minds would change.

[Janie616]

Originally Posted by Mitzis Mom

I didn't read the whole thread, so, sorry if I repeat somebodies post.
I tried about all there is from home cooked to raw to prescription diets to find the right food for our Maggie who is very allergic to a gzillion nutritional and environmental things AND a picky eater. I ended up with Orijen. All of my babies, including Maggie, are doing very very good with it, all love it, their poop is nice and firm, not stinky and less than with all other foods before (and believe me... even though Yorkies don't poop big piles it adds up if you have five of them...LOL) It is pricey though but I don't care as long as I don't have to pay for Vet visits and medications...

Orijen is not pricey at all ... you can get Orijen Adult Dog food online:
5.5 lbs for $14.99, 15.4 lbs for $34.99 or 29.7 lbs for $58.99, those are great prices compared to other better dog foods. I believe this stuff is also sold in Walmarts.

Before Grain is a good brand and sells for a bit more but is higher grade and has absolutely NO grain. It is a dry food as well. Comes in 3 flavors, buffalo, chicken, and salmon. Prices range from $13.99 to $42.99 (for 25.3 lbs)

Eagle Pack Holistic is another great brand. Prices range from $14.99 to $44.50 (for 33lbs.) even includes glucosamine chondrotin -- no preservatives, no antibiotics,& lots of probiotics. Costly as well.

Then of course there is The Honest Kitchen which is worth every penny if your favourite member of the family wants to feel the love of a "home cooked" meal. It is a dehydrated raw food. My friends have used PREFERENCE (GRAIN FREE) which a combination of fruits, vegetables, & herbs. You can add raw meat to it if you wish but it is palatable without that even. Prices range from $25.99 (3 lbs) to $49.99 (7 lbs). But do not forget, you add water to it and each 1/4 cup yields one day's serving for our babies. So a 3 lb box can last more than 3-6 months. Costly but worth it.

The reason I am mentioning this is because some people feel that they need to say they are feeding a "pricey" dog food in order to say they are better than others. (Ahem, not so)

I have personally gone to dog shows and nutrition seminars to find the right dog food for my dogs. Price does not come into the picture. I would sooner eat less and give my dogs the best. I do not trust anything that comes off the shelves of the supermarket or Walmart, KMart or other big box stores. Nutrition is what it is all about. I treat my dogs as I do my children.

And their poops are firm and solid {ready to be bronzed }. I have alternated between the above mentioned & have no complaints.

Simply a suggestion.

[Britster]

^^ I do agree about the price. Some people think it's ohhh so expensive, but you've gotta remember, you're going to be feeding LESS of a high quality food as well. I also get Orijen for around $15.99 and Acana for $14.99 (both 5.5lb bags). I see some foods at Petsmart that are WAY more expensive than that and aren't even *that* great. Royal Canin, for example, I saw, like, a 3lb bag and it was over $18. I thought that was crazy, considering there is hardly any meat in it. Plus, with us having small dogs... it's not really that much to feed them.

[Janie616]

Originally Posted by Britster

^^ I do agree about the price. Some people think it's ohhh so expensive, but you've gotta remember, you're going to be feeding LESS of a high quality food as well. I also get Orijen for around $15.99 and Acana for $14.99 (both 5.5lb bags). I see some foods at Petsmart that are WAY more expensive than that and aren't even *that* great. Royal Canin, for example, I saw, like, a 3lb bag and it was over $18. I thought that was crazy, considering there is hardly any meat in it. Plus, with us having small dogs... it's not really that much to feed them.

I agree again ... just did not understand why that person felt the need to mention it was pricey ... (If you have 5 dogs, feeding them is going to cost more than having only 1-2, do the math)

[pawever Yorkie]

Originally Posted by finns_mum

i'm curious about what you do for their teeth? since dry dog kibble is supposed to be good for Yorkie teeth, do you give your dogs any bones or hard treats/supplements to their diet?
thanks,
Finns mum (and now Lola too!)

Well, actually the starch in the kibbles stick btw the teeth and that's how they get teeth problem. when you feed raw, dog's saliva breaks own the protien much faster and there's nothing sticking to thier teeth. Clean breath was one of the first thing I noticed after switching to raw.