Over vaccinating

[jp4m2]

Originally Posted by debelm2

Please excuse my ignorance but does titiered mean they are checking to see if the dog still has the immunity from the vaccination? If so, can anyone tell me how much it costs to have that done?

Titers have a place but they don't tell the whole picture. After administering a vaccine wait about 10 days and the vet can do a titer. It will show if antibodies are present which will indicated a positive response to the vaccine......That it produced antibodies.....

A "titer" is a measurement of how much antibody to a certain virus (or other antigen) is circulating in the blood at that moment. A titer test does not and cannot measure immunity, because immunity to specific viruses is reliant not on antibodies, but on memory cells, which we have no way to measure. Memory cells are what prompt the immune system to create antibodies and dispatch them to an infection caused by the virus it "remembers." Memory cells don't need "reminders" in the form of re-vaccination to keep producing antibodies.

So if you do a titer in a year or so and it's showing a "low" level of antibodies it in no way means the dog it not protected. Titers do not take into account memory cells......

[jp4m2]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

I made my mind up close to 5 years ago because of doing my research also. It does make me sick what goes on because this information is not hidden and why breeders would not be doing their homework is beyond me. Breeding is just not getting two dogs together..but sadly in many cases it is.

I also see few breeders understanding the mental health of dogs either but that is another discussion but the information is also out there...

Every time I see or hear someone say they trust their vet and in the next breath they are going in for their "annual vaccines" it just disturbs me so.......I've even seen people worming their pups every week for months at a time without even testing to see if it's needed....It's no wonder almost 50% of our pets will die of cancer, and the epidemic problems of liver, kidney problems , hypothyroidism, and diabetes. They are swimming in a toxic soup of chemicals, all coming from vaccines, flea and heatworm products, and bad food.....It's funny that we all run to the vets getting all these vaccines for diseases that they have very little probability of contracting yet our animals are getting sicker and sicker.......Shameful...

The computer is right in front of them, all the info is there right at their fingertips, just take some time to look........

[livingdustmops]

It is heartbreaking..

[mitchell]

My first Yorkie Max was vaccinated every year without fail and he had ill health all of his life eventually dying from a brain tumor..after Max was put to sleep I came across Catherine O'Driscolls website Canine Health Concern decided my next dog would only have his puppy vaccinations and no more after that...Bailey is now 3 years of age and has not had yearly vaccinations much to my vets dismay but I won't be swayed on my opinion this time around...having seen what my first dog went through...collitis, anal glad problems, itchy skin, bloated stomach...you name it he suffered from something and was always at the vets...was put on to special vet food which didn't do anything but made the vet very rich...lots of people now titre test before they even consider vaccinating..google titre test and you will get more of an understanding...also read this site Spangler...we also no longer worm unless it's necessary and we don't put flea treatments unless he has fleas...why put unnecessary poisons into your dogs system if it's not needed...Yorkies are small dogs...Bailey has never needed worming or flea treatments.

[mitchell]

Canine Health Concern

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by mitchell

My first Yorkie Max was vaccinated every year without fail and he had ill health all of his life eventually dying from a brain tumor..after Max was put to sleep I came across Catherine O'Driscolls website Canine Health Concern decided my next dog would only have his puppy vaccinations and no more after that...Bailey is now 3 years of age and has not had yearly vaccinations much to my vets dismay but I won't be swayed on my opinion this time around...having seen what my first dog went through...collitis, anal glad problems, itchy skin, bloated stomach...you name it he suffered from something and was always at the vets...was put on to special vet food which didn't do anything but made the vet very rich...lots of people now titre test before they even consider vaccinating..google titre test and you will get more of an understanding...also read this site Spangler...we also no longer worm unless it's necessary and we don't put flea treatments unless he has fleas...why put unnecessary poisons into your dogs system if it's not needed...Yorkies are small dogs...Bailey has never needed worming or flea treatments.

I agree...and do the same thing. What many people do not understand is the amount of dead animals that go into our petfood that have also been over vaccinating so besides the shots they are also eating this garbage...

[jp4m2]

Originally Posted by mitchell

My first Yorkie Max was vaccinated every year without fail and he had ill health all of his life eventually dying from a brain tumor..after Max was put to sleep I came across Catherine O'Driscolls website Canine Health Concern decided my next dog would only have his puppy vaccinations and no more after that...Bailey is now 3 years of age and has not had yearly vaccinations much to my vets dismay but I won't be swayed on my opinion this time around...having seen what my first dog went through...collitis, anal glad problems, itchy skin, bloated stomach...you name it he suffered from something and was always at the vets...was put on to special vet food which didn't do anything but made the vet very rich...lots of people now titre test before they even consider vaccinating..google titre test and you will get more of an understanding...also read this site Spangler...we also no longer worm unless it's necessary and we don't put flea treatments unless he has fleas...why put unnecessary poisons into your dogs system if it's not needed...Yorkies are small dogs...Bailey has never needed worming or flea treatments.

I'm so sorry this happened to your Max, you can't help but wonder if it was the overvaccinations that caused his decline in health......Most likely it was.....So sad when you trust the vet and this happens.....Thank goodness you did your research and now you can protect Bailey.....

I have three boys, Jack was my first, I was clueless about vaccines so he had more than he would have had I known what I know now. Thank goodness I do know now so my other two are not going to be the vets victims. Jack is the one with all the problems, allergies, feet licking, air licking, red itchy skin, ect.....I know it was the vaccines.....My other two are healthy as a horses. All of them will get no more vaccines as long as I have anything to say about it....

I went to a vet once who tried to push vaccines on me, but I wasn't buying it.....She even tried to convince me they were so safe that she gives herself rabies vaccines....

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

I have read a number of articles that it might be why so many dogs are getting cancer also.

yep friends dog has cancer right now at 4 years old and her vet does corona vaccine, lepto, lyme and she has cockers and first question was ask vet where he is vaccinating your dog. Of course he said it was in another area he removed cancer on back down by butt and it came right back it was like a pancake and it came right back so now dog is on chemo - she trusts this guy big time and i do not as he jacked up my dog with the nsaid and steroids but hard for me to tell her as she thinks he is the GREATEST

[debelm2]

Originally Posted by jp4m2

Titers have a place but they don't tell the whole picture. After administering a vaccine wait about 10 days and the vet can do a titer. It will show if antibodies are present which will indicated a positive response to the vaccine......That it produced antibodies.....

A "titer" is a measurement of how much antibody to a certain virus (or other antigen) is circulating in the blood at that moment. A titer test does not and cannot measure immunity, because immunity to specific viruses is reliant not on antibodies, but on memory cells, which we have no way to measure. Memory cells are what prompt the immune system to create antibodies and dispatch them to an infection caused by the virus it "remembers." Memory cells don't need "reminders" in the form of re-vaccination to keep producing antibodies.

So if you do a titer in a year or so and it's showing a "low" level of antibodies it in no way means the dog it not protected. Titers do not take into account memory cells......

Thanks for the info!! Not sure if I understand all of it but looks like I have some reading to do.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by jp4m2

I started reading about vaccines about 3 years ago when I received one of those reminder cards in the mail from the vet. I got to thinking, is all this really necessary???.....That got me started on researching and reading and reading and more reading....Then I got very angry and sad ......Sad at all the animals that are deliberately made ill because their owners are being taken advantage of my their vets......The vet that they trust.....So sad......

This information is not new.....The research has been out there for about 3 decades, it's just that we, the pet owner, didn't know it. When a vet knows that vaccines are not harmless and still continues to administer them in a reckless way, in my eyes that is a vet committing malpractice and is an unethical vet.......

The research is in, no vet should ever use combo vaccines, ever.....It is also proven that boosters are not needed....But it's done anyway...Why would he/she do this???

I see breeders also doing this same thing. A breeder will research genetics, food, blood lines, health conditions, whelping, even grooming products, but when it comes to one of the most important parts of the animals long term health very little research is done in the overvaccine issue. I still see breeders giving vaccines to soon, too often and giving unnecessary ones......What a shame .....IMO, a lot of people are making these decsions out of fear, fear of diseases that's lurking "out there".....Fear is the motivator, and it works very well for the vet......Create fear and they will come......

yeah another friend has had dogs for years - she does the puppy shots and one rabies shot and she said her dogs are all very healthy live for 14 years plus so she does not buy into all this after seeing this for years

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by debelm2

Please excuse my ignorance but does titiered mean they are checking to see if the dog still has the immunity from the vaccination? If so, can anyone tell me how much it costs to have that done?

yes that is what it is - here is info on it

Vaccine Titer in Dogs

depends on lab they send to as one vet sent to cornell and cost me $154 for a parvo distemper titer and i freaked out saying well i guess i always wanted a kid to go to an ivy league school guess i will send my dogs blood

and i have had some go to colorado, antech, etc so it depends but it can cost anywhere from $50-154 I have seen but much cheaper than vet bills for a sick dog

I tend to wonder if they do these shots knowing they will get sick dogs to make more money now there is a thought?

[dwerten]

we see dr dodds for our titers and blood work and here is the info on titer validity - My demi tested low on a titer so we had the vaccine due to this but otherwise mine have been getting titers for years - keep in mind it says on all vaccinations - FOR HEALTHY DOGS ONLY

MORE ON VACCINE TITER TESTING

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
Hemopet
938 Stanford Street
Santa Monica, CA 90403
310-828-4804; Fax 310-828-8251
Hemopet/Hemolife, HEMOPET a full animal blood bank, Diagnostic Laboratory, Adoption and Consultation
hemopet@hotmail.com

Some veterinarians have challenged the validity of using vaccine titer testing to assess the immunologic status of animals against the common, clinically important infectious diseases.

With all due respect, this represents a misunderstanding of what has been called the “fallacy of titer testing”, because research has shown that once an animal’s titer stabilizes it is likely to remain constant for many years. Properly immunized animals have sterilizing immunity that not only prevents clinical disease but also prevents infection, and only the presence of antibody can prevent infection. As stated by eminent expert Dr. Ronald Schultz in discussing the value of vaccine titer testing, these tests “show that an animal with a positive test has sterilizing immunity and should be protected from infection. If that animal were vaccinated it would not respond with a significant increase in antibody titer, but may develop a hypersensitivity to vaccine components (e.g. fetal bovine serum). Furthermore, the animal doesn't need to be revaccinated and should not be revaccinated since the vaccine could cause an adverse reaction (hypersensitivity disorder). You should avoid vaccinating animals that are already protected. It is often said that the antibody level detected is “only a snapshot in time". That's simply not true; it is more a “motion picture that plays for years".

Furthermore, protection as indicated by a positive titer result is not likely to suddenly drop-off unless an animal develops a medical problem such as cancer or receives high or prolonged doses of immunosuppressive drugs. Viral vaccines prompt an immune response that lasts much longer than that elicited by classic antigen. Lack of distinction between the two kinds of responses may be why practitioners think titers can suddenly disappear.

But, not all vaccines produce sterilizing immunity. Those that do include: distemper virus, adenovirus, and parvovirus in the dog, and panleukopenia virus in the cat. Examples of vaccines that produced non-sterile immunity would be leptospirosis, bordetella, rabies virus, herpesvirus and calicivirus --- the latter two being upper respiratory viruses of cats. While non-sterile immunity may not protect the animal from infection, it should keep the infection from progressing to severe clinical disease.

Therefore, interpreting titers correctly depends upon the disease in question. Some titers must reach a certain level to indicate immunity, but with other agents like those that produce sterile immunity, the presence of any measurable antibody shows protection. The positive titer test result is fairly straightforward, but a negative titer test result is more difficult to interpret, because a negative titer is not the same thing as a zero titer and it doesn't necessarily mean that animal is unprotected. A negative result usually means the titer has failed to reach the threshold of providing sterile immunity. This is an important distinction, because for the clinically important distemper and parvovirus diseases of dogs, and panleukopenia of cats, a negative or zero antibody titer indicates that the animal is not protected against canine parvovirus and may not be protected against canine distemper virus or feline panleukopenia virus.

Finally, what does more than a decade of experience with vaccine titer testing reveal ? Published studies in refereed journals show that 90-98% of dogs and cats that have been properly vaccinated develop good measurable antibody titers to the infectious agent measured. So, in contrast to the concerns of some practitioners, using vaccine titer testing as a means to assess vaccine-induced protection will likely result in the animal avoiding needless and unwise booster vaccinations.

SIDE BAR
Reasons for Vaccine Titer Testing: *
1. To determine that animal is protected (suggested by a positive test result).
2. To identify a susceptible animal (suggested by a negative test result).
3. To determine whether an individual animal has responded to a vaccine.
4. To determine whether an individual vaccine is effectively immunizing animals.

* from: Schultz RD, Ford RB, Olsen J, Scott F. Titer testing and vaccination: a new look at traditional practices. Vet Med, 97: 1-13, 2002 (insert).

References

Dodds WJ. Vaccination protocols for dogs predisposed to vaccine reactions. J Am An Hosp Assoc 38: 1-4, 2001.
Lappin MR, Andrews J, Simpson D, et al. Use of serologic tests to predict resistance to feline herpesvirus 1, feline calicivirus, and feline parvovirus infection in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 220: 38-42, 2002.
Mouzin DE, Lorenzen M J, Haworth, et al. Duration of serologic response to five viral antigens in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 224: 55-60, 2004.
Mouzin DE, Lorenzen M J, Haworth, et al. Duration of serologic response to three viral antigens in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 224: 61-66, 2004.
Paul MA (chair) et al. Report of the AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force: 2003 canine vaccine guidelines, recommendations, and supporting literature. AAHA, April 2003, 28 pp.
Tizard I, Ni Y. Use of serologic testing to assess immune status of companion animals. J Am Vet Med Assoc 213: 54-60, 1998.
Twark L, Dodds WJ. Clinical application of serum parvovirus and distemper virus antibody titers for determining revaccination strategies in healthy dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 217:1021-1024, 2000.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by mitchell

My first Yorkie Max was vaccinated every year without fail and he had ill health all of his life eventually dying from a brain tumor..after Max was put to sleep I came across Catherine O'Driscolls website Canine Health Concern decided my next dog would only have his puppy vaccinations and no more after that...Bailey is now 3 years of age and has not had yearly vaccinations much to my vets dismay but I won't be swayed on my opinion this time around...having seen what my first dog went through...collitis, anal glad problems, itchy skin, bloated stomach...you name it he suffered from something and was always at the vets...was put on to special vet food which didn't do anything but made the vet very rich...lots of people now titre test before they even consider vaccinating..google titre test and you will get more of an understanding...also read this site Spangler...we also no longer worm unless it's necessary and we don't put flea treatments unless he has fleas...why put unnecessary poisons into your dogs system if it's not needed...Yorkies are small dogs...Bailey has never needed worming or flea treatments.

yep the derm wanted me to put flea meds on dd and i said ok so let's think about this- her skin is irritated so lets put a chemical on it making her more miserable and if the flea jumps on her she gets bit anyway to activate the chemical to kill the population so she will still get bit and itch for 3 weeks - YEAH i will take my chances on her getting bit by a flea sorry and then i will bath her if i see one as i have a microscope on her and she has hardly any hair anyway and when i used revolution one time to rule out sarcoptic mange for her we went to beach with my 3 dogs and GUESS WHO HAD THE MOST FLEAS - yep my dee dee the only one with flea protection on her so that did it for me - FLEAS will attack the dogs with an unhealthy immune system and they usually do not gravatate to a healthy immune system dog

[mitchell]

Originally Posted by debelm2

Thanks for the info!! Not sure if I understand all of it but looks like I have some reading to do.

If you're unsure of anything please email Catherine O'Driscoll...she's always happy to pass on info and advice EMAIL: Catherine@carsegray.co.uk OR her husband Rob..EMAIL: rob@carsegray.co.uk

Please also be aware that vets sometimes vaccinate without you knowing...think it was on this forum or another dog forum that I read a thread from someone that took her dog into her vets for something unrelated to vaccinations and it had to stay the day with them...on collecting the dog they noticed that the dog had been vaccinated without her consent and they were billed for it ...not saying all vets are like this but if they are losing out on vaccinations, they may try anything to get some extra cash...beware!

[mitchell]

Originally Posted by dwerten

FLEAS will attack the dogs with an unhealthy immune system and they usually do not gravatate to a healthy immune system dog

You got it on one hun ..the more poisons we put into our dogs the more unhealthy their immune systems will be. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out but unfortunately vets are a business and as such will encourage everyone to vaccinate.