Question about bile acid tests!!!

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Agreed 100% always go with an expert over someone that doesn't have the degree. Please don't take this as rude but I've always stated PLEASE seek a Vet's advice over someone that is not medically trained before seeking online advice.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terrier

well sadly been let down by many in vet profession that have degrees so sometimes lay people are not always so dumb as many spend alot more time sometimes than the professionals educating themselves and deal with certain illnesses on a daily basis unlike many vets. I think all information is valuable then you as the dog owner go with what you feel is best for your dog with what you have learned and what your gut instinct is. If you join some of these yahoogroups for illnesses you will see many of these pet owners with no degrees know alot more than the vets and I have learned alot from them and continue to do so and would never discount this knowledge ever. If i trusted vets 100% no questions asked then a week ago when they wanted to give my dog who got hives from 17 days on simplicef and was in their chart they did not read a shot of a higher dose when we did not know she had a uti as urinalysis and culture was not back just wanted to give her a big shot of covenia Pfizer Animal Health Dogs Health Management

which is an antibiotic in same family as simplicef my dog might have gone into an anaphylactic shock

Anaphylaxis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so had i not reminded him of this my dog could have been very sick and he said oh wow i forgot about that and good thing you said no to the shot as this could have made dee dee very sick - uh yeah

oh and he has a phd from ucdavis so more education than most vets

so sorry I believe in knowing your dog, trust your gut, educate yourself, consult vet and do what you feel is best for your dog

oh and let's not forget the other vet who has been practicing for years gave my dog metacam while on steroids on an empty stomach and she was sick for months vomitting and diarhea as you never mix nsaids with steroids nor on empty stomach and i asked for tramadol as you can mix steroids and tramadol as she hurt her leg -so i was right and i had to take her to internal medicine specialist as she was so sick and ims said what was he thinking ???? uh he wasn't and i knew better and trusted the PROFESSIONAL.

oh and my friends dog a yorkie the dermatologist mixed ketoconazole with ivermectin for demodex and her dog ended up in a coma and almost died as you NEVER mix those drugs something i learned on the internet as was trying to help her figure out what happened as ketoconazole breaks the blood barrier wall allowing ivermectin to go to brain and cause seizures and coma in dogs as the ivermectin kills the mite by going to brain as they have a weaker blood barrier wall than dogs

Please do your homework I use to be much more trusting but vets are human they can make mistakes and you and your dog may pay the price - you should work as a team with them

[Elle]

Originally Posted by dwerten

this is probably because if you do not do the second blood draw exactly 2hrs on the dog you will not get accurate results

That may be what they say. But there are other variables that will make it sky rocket.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Elle

That may be what they say. But there are other variables that will make it sky rocket.

yes which is gall bladder contraction and why i did 3 tests on dd to confirm it - first one then a week later second then 6 mos later on low protein diet a third and it definitely dropped the 3rd one from 73 to 54 then to 26 on low protein diet and last one was done by dr jean dodds who has studied blood work for 40 years so i trust hers was most accurate

but had i followed vets advice my poor dog would have had radioactive dye put in her for no reason as she had no symptoms of mvd or liver shunt just skin allergies and with numbers below 100 no high alt and no symptoms I would not put my dog through scintigraphy so i trusted my gut and glad i did as she has 3 years later had no symptoms just put her on low protein diet - NOW HAD she had symptoms and over 100 I would have done scintigraphy and flown her to ut for surgery with dr tobias no questions asked as i will always get my dogs to the best

[Sashabear0430]

Sasha's numbers are pre 78.6 and post 276.=((((

[Elle]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I don't think it matters what location the blood is drawn from, but according to Dr. Centers, how the blood is drawn.

1. Collect a bile acid sample before a meal (pre-meal) and 2 hours after a normal meal. It is no longer recommended fo fast for 12 hours before first collection or meal. The optimal meal is one of the dogn's regular food. Stuffin the dog, the dob being stressed or frightened can posssibly skew results. The draw can be done one day pre feeding, then the dog can be taken home and fed and another draw done 2 hours post-feeding.


Many things can influence the results. A dog that has been car sick or stressed will test differently.

Facts for years. Nothing has ever been proven to effective otherwise!

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by dwerten

well sadly been let down by many in vet profession that have degrees so sometimes lay people are not always so dumb as many spend alot more time sometimes than the professionals educating themselves and deal with certain illnesses on a daily basis unlike many vets. I think all information is valuable then you as the dog owner go with what you feel is best for your dog with what you have learned and what your gut instinct is. If you join some of these yahoogroups for illnesses you will see many of these pet owners with no degrees know alot more than the vets and I have learned alot from them and continue to do so and would never discount this knowledge ever. If i trusted vets 100% no questions asked then a week ago when they wanted to give my dog who got hives from 17 days on simplicef and was in their chart they did not read a shot of a higher dose when we did not know she had a uti as urinalysis and culture was not back just wanted to give her a big shot of covenia Pfizer Animal Health Dogs Health Management

which is an antibiotic in same family as simplicef my dog might have gone into an anaphylactic shock

Anaphylaxis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so had i not reminded him of this my dog could have been very sick and he said oh wow i forgot about that and good thing you said no to the shot as this could have made dee dee very sick - uh yeah

oh and he has a phd from ucdavis so more education than most vets

so sorry I believe in knowing your dog, trust your gut, educate yourself, consult vet and do what you feel is best for your dog

oh and let's not forget the other vet who has been practicing for years gave my dog metacam while on steroids on an empty stomach and she was sick for months vomitting and diarhea as you never mix nsaids with steroids nor on empty stomach and i asked for tramadol as you can mix steroids and tramadol as she hurt her leg -so i was right and i had to take her to internal medicine specialist as she was so sick and ims said what was he thinking ???? uh he wasn't and i knew better and trusted the PROFESSIONAL.

oh and my friends dog a yorkie the dermatologist mixed ketoconazole with ivermectin for demodex and her dog ended up in a coma and almost died as you NEVER mix those drugs something i learned on the internet as was trying to help her figure out what happened as ketoconazole breaks the blood barrier wall allowing ivermectin to go to brain and cause seizures and coma in dogs as the ivermectin kills the mite by going to brain as they have a weaker blood barrier wall than dogs

Please do your homework I use to be much more trusting but vets are human they can make mistakes and you and your dog may pay the price - you should work as a team with them

Oh I know Vets are human and make mistakes and I have a very well versed vet that works with me not against me. I have often come in and told my Vet what I think is wrong with my dog and he will end up concering BUT that's the trust between me and my vet and I also recommend anyone to always feel comfortable with their vet of choice but as far as BAT's are concerned I think Dr. Sharon Center and Dr. Tobias ARE leading experts in this field and VERY up to date on this typical disease vs something wrong with mixing meds or a stomach problem that a regular vet might miss....there is a HUGE difference in someone that is taking on such a project as finding a DNA marker for a life threatening disease so I think I'll take their recommendations AGAIN over a lay person as Mary pointed out

[Elle]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

And of course how the blood is drawn (method).

It must be a butterfly needle.

[TLC]

Originally Posted by Sashabear0430

Sasha's numbers are pre 78.6 and post 276.=((((

Ahhh....

Those number are in Liver Shunt territory. Have you seen a specialist yet?

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Oh I know Vets are human and make mistakes and I have a very well versed vet that works with me not against me. I have often come in and told my Vet what I think is wrong with my dog and he will end up concering BUT that's the trust between me and my vet and I also recommend anyone to always feel comfortable with their vet of choice but as far as BAT's are concerned I think Dr. Sharon Center and Dr. Tobias ARE leading experts in this field and VERY up to date on this typical disease vs something wrong with mixing meds or a stomach problem that a regular vet might miss....there is a HUGE difference in someone that is taking on such a project as finding a DNA marker for a life threatening disease so I think I'll take their recommendations AGAIN over a lay person as Mary pointed out

I agree and why i ALWAYS recommend Dr Centers and Dr tobias to everyone for liver issues if you read my posts - I just think the only reason she recommends the 12hr fast not be done is for dogs that are prone to hypoglycemic and tinies as many liver shunt dogs are the smaller ones and cannot be fasted for 12 hrs that is all i was saying if you read my posts. I think food complicates blood work in humans and in dogs and i think dr centers weighs more heavily on the post number anyway than the pre

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Sashabear0430

Sasha's numbers are pre 78.6 and post 276.=((((

yes that is over 100 since dr broome is near you in Tustin I would save up for scintigraphy which is appx $390 as i would confirm the shunt before flying or driving to ut but i would NOT get the liver shunt surgery done by anyone but Tobias --i think i posted this for you already but her is dr broome link he is the only one in so cal i believe that does the scintigraphy

Portal Scintigraphy in Veterinary Medicine

AVMI- Directions

[Brooklynn]

I want to add..
I do belong to a couple of yahoo groups and I've always said an owner knows their dog best especially if you have had animals for a long time. BUT you still have to have an open communication with your vet and if you don't then you go find one that is open and will work with you the animal owner.
We as animal owners do have access to reading materials online but we do not have the education or medical license to give medical advice online as that is when we can set ourselves up and open up for a lawsuit. We can give opinions but I see so many give medical advice when it's been the wrong advice so that is why I always say seek a Vet's opinion before you set out online to do your search.
With Bile Acid Tests I really think that Dr. Sharon Center and Dr. Karen Tobias is totally up to date with medical protocal with this disease. Now if my vet would tell me something else to do then I might question it and seek further or dig deeper because he's not up to date with the latest findings on LS but he is knowledegable on the disease as I was kinda shocked when we were discussing things and he himself mentioned the Protein C test and many vets have NO clue what that is!

Donna

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by dwerten

well sadly been let down by many in vet profession that have degrees so sometimes lay people are not always so dumb as many spend alot more time sometimes than the professionals educating themselves and deal with certain illnesses on a daily basis unlike many vets. I think all information is valuable then you as the dog owner go with what you feel is best for your dog with what you have learned and what your gut instinct is. If you join some of these yahoogroups for illnesses you will see many of these pet owners with no degrees know alot more than the vets and I have learned alot from them and continue to do so and would never discount this knowledge ever. If i trusted vets 100% no questions asked then a week ago when they wanted to give my dog who got hives from 17 days on simplicef and was in their chart they did not read a shot of a higher dose when we did not know she had a uti as urinalysis and culture was not back just wanted to give her a big shot of covenia Pfizer Animal Health Dogs Health Management

which is an antibiotic in same family as simplicef my dog might have gone into an anaphylactic shock

Anaphylaxis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so had i not reminded him of this my dog could have been very sick and he said oh wow i forgot about that and good thing you said no to the shot as this could have made dee dee very sick - uh yeah

oh and he has a phd from ucdavis so more education than most vets

so sorry I believe in knowing your dog, trust your gut, educate yourself, consult vet and do what you feel is best for your dog

oh and let's not forget the other vet who has been practicing for years gave my dog metacam while on steroids on an empty stomach and she was sick for months vomitting and diarhea as you never mix nsaids with steroids nor on empty stomach and i asked for tramadol as you can mix steroids and tramadol as she hurt her leg -so i was right and i had to take her to internal medicine specialist as she was so sick and ims said what was he thinking ???? uh he wasn't and i knew better and trusted the PROFESSIONAL.

oh and my friends dog a yorkie the dermatologist mixed ketoconazole with ivermectin for demodex and her dog ended up in a coma and almost died as you NEVER mix those drugs something i learned on the internet as was trying to help her figure out what happened as ketoconazole breaks the blood barrier wall allowing ivermectin to go to brain and cause seizures and coma in dogs as the ivermectin kills the mite by going to brain as they have a weaker blood barrier wall than dogs

Please do your homework I use to be much more trusting but vets are human they can make mistakes and you and your dog may pay the price - you should work as a team with them

You are speaking in generalities based on situations that have happened to you.

The subject of this thread is Liver Shunt. Nothing to mess with and still recommend taking Dr. Tobias and Dr Centers methods over recommendations of a lay person on YT.

Again, recommendations are great, but giving advise as to what one should or shouldn't do over what has been advised and recommended by Specialists and Experts in the field.....mmmmmm. That is unless one is willing to take the responsibility of someone's dog dying because of said recommendation.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by dwerten

I agree and why i ALWAYS recommend Dr Centers and Dr tobias to everyone for liver issues if you read my posts - I just think the only reason she recommends the 12hr fast not be done is for dogs that are prone to hypoglycemic and tinies as many liver shunt dogs are the smaller ones and cannot be fasted for 12 hrs that is all i was saying if you read my posts. I think food complicates blood work in humans and in dogs and i think dr centers weighs more heavily on the post number anyway than the pre

Dr. Center says a 12 hour fast is no longer required on any even on the larger yorkies...I had the honor of hearing her speak in Memphis and I have spoken to her on the phone

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

You are speaking in generalities based on situations that have happened to you.

The subject of this thread is Liver Shunt. Nothing to mess with and still recommend taking Dr. Tobias and Dr Centers methods over recommendations of a lay person on YT.

Again, recommendations are great, but giving advise as to what one should or shouldn't do over what has been advised and recommended by Specialists and Experts in the field.....mmmmmm. That is unless one is willing to take the responsibility of someone's dog dying because of said recommendation.

So do you think a dog fasting for 12 hrs is going to screw up the test? As i would doubt that very much as that seems to be the dispute here i guess lolllll

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Dr. Center says a 12 hour fast is no longer required on any even on the larger yorkies...I had the honor of hearing her speak in Memphis and I have spoken to her on the phone

I was also reading that there is a Dr. Wilfried Mai out of the Univerity of Pennsyulvania-School of Veterinary Medicine, seeking to modificy the technique of using contrast-enhanced magnetic esonance angiograph in humans for use in dogs.

Traditional methods for diagnosing porto-systemic shunts and hepatic microvascular disease have included radiographs, ultrasound and scintigraphy. The tests often have been used in combination to obtain an accurate picture of the extent of the problem before treatment options can be obtained. His hope is that CE-MRA will afford a better diagnostic option for canine liver patients.