Ok, we are on day four of the swith to raw. I've noticed a few changes in my girls and am wondering if it's just a coincidence or not?
First of all, no poop all day. No accidents inside but nothing outside either. I know the day is not over but should I be worried by that?

Secondly, they are not drinking much water at all. Still go out to pee at the normal times but the water bowl seems like it's hardly being touched.

And finally, this is the opposite of what I'd expect, Sasha has normally been a little food aggressive only with Zoe. Sasha was never a good eater and always underweight until we got Zoe and since then she has put on weight and she actually looks healthy. Not overweight either. Anyways, typically at dinner time I would give them their kibble and Sasha would be unhappy that Zoe was eating her own kibble and would also stand over her own dish and not really eat it, but growl at Zoe if she came near. Kinda like, I don't want this but I don't want you to have it either. Eventually, she would tire of that and then eat her food but I always had the feeling that she was only eating it so that Zoe couldn't. Now we're on raw and I would expect her to be more food aggresive but in fact, the opposite has happened:confused: They are both really into their own food but last nite Sasha didn't really seem to like the liver and she was fine with Zoe taking what she hadn't eaten and finishing it. She also is extremely gentle with me when I'm feeding her. I'd expect her to be a little eager to eat this food and was a little worried at first that she'd accidentally bite me but in fact, she is very careful not too. Actually both dogs are. And don't get me wrong, I don't think either one would allow the other to steal their food but when they are done, they seem happy to share. Anyways, is this all normal stuff?
Thanks!
Theresa

$$$?
 

Do you mind if I ask the cost of feeding prey model? I know you said it's less expensive, but I'm wondering about monthly average? And about how much do you buy in advance and store?

I thought I'd jump in on this, I'm new to feeding raw but see alot of people try to aim for $1 a pound but it's the kind of thing that you could always do really inexpensively is you know the right person. For instance, I have a bil who hunts, so I'm going to ask for the parts of the deer that they don't want. Some people have put adds on craigslist saying they will take any meat that has freezer burn. So there are a lot of things you can do to make it less expensive. Of course, I suppose if you wanted to you could always feed your dog the best of the best like steak and things and then it could get pretty expensive. Personally, I'm trying to aim for that $1 average. The chicken I have gotten has all been under a $1/lb but I expect that I'll have to pay a little more for pork or beef. Hope that helps!

The progress!
 

Prey model and BARF fed dogs will drink a lot less water than k*bble fed dogs and cats for that matter. As k*bble is dry matter, meats are not of course. Between my 3 dogs, I only fill their community water bowl once a day unless it's been a especially hot summer day and after a long walk of course. So what you're seeing here in your dogs, all very normal! ;)
Also the perpetrated "blood thirst" in prey fed dogs is just another myth and I, myself have observed my own dog convert from food aggression to mellow, relaxed dog. The carbs that convert into sugar in the blood (k*bble) have many dogs hyper. Like I mentioned before, I feed my dogs together as a pack and never had any aggression issues with RAW! When my senior was kibble fed, he was essentially a different dog! :(
The poop issue is something you DO need to watch as your dogs are settling into the switch and you will notice differences in each dog! My senior has constipation issues if fed too much bone! You can combat that with a little extra muscle meat aside form the meaty bone the dog is eating. You can also step up the organ game in that non- pooping dog. Liver will get things rolling for him, but there are other excellent organ meat choices out there! Heart counts as muscle AND organ meat, both! My dogs only poop ONCE a day, *sometimes* twice. That's it!



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The cost of prey model?
 

:goodpost::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Yes, aiming for things on sale and/or $1 or under per pound. I have several ethnic supermarkets in my vicinity and when their chicken goes on sale, I pounce on it! Whole chickens or parts for 0.36 cents per pound is a great price! I also regularly score free organ meats from my butcher! :D Once you people become prey model feeders, they become resourceful and hunting for bargains becomes a real hobby!!!
I feed 3 Yorkies for under $20 a month! Sometimes even less, sometimes a little more. It depends. That's why I bought an upright freezer to store my Yorkie's food so I can take real advantage or great sale items and stock up accordingly! ;)


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Correction!
 

I meant; "Once People become prey model feeders, NOT "you" people, LOL. Sorry! :eek:

I am leaning toward trying the prey model raw diet....but am a little overwhelmed at menu planning. Here is my current situation:

Rosco: 22.5 lb. pug, he is a good weight for his frame, if anything could stand to gain a 1/2 lb. or so. He eats at a good pace and is a bit picky.

Bentley: 23 lb. pug, he needs to lose 1 to 1 1/2 lbs. He will eat anything that doesn't eat him first, and tends to gulp food. He does not eat too much now, I monitor it closely, and he is very active, but his metabolism is slower than Rosco's. He is not yet a year old, and does seem to be slimming up a bit as he gets older.

Neither have health problems; neither are particularly prone to runny stools or constipation. Readily available meats would be chicken and beef. In all honesty, to stick to it, I need to have 2-3 set meals that I can rotate, and not even think about portions, etc. Is there a site that gives specific recommendations? Like, "1 chicken leg + 1 oz. liver". The links given here have great information, but unless I have overlooked it I am not seeing specific menus. ?? Thanks in advance, I really appreciate the help and information.

Meal Planning???
 

In all honesty, feeding prey model is not 1-2-3 like k*bble is. Ripping open a bag and scooping out the dog's portions for the day is pretty convenient, I get that, I know that, I've done it myself! BUT, my convenience should not and does not play a role in my dog's health! If you're looking for convenience and "planned menus" then you might want to stick with the k*bble. Prey Model feeding is not an exact "science". There's that misconception that dogs need the same kind of variety as people do. There's also that myth that the dog needs a "properly balanced" meal, every time. Truth is, balance is achieved over a period; a week or two. Does a human eat a "balanced" meal every time he eats? Do we consult nutritionist before we feed our human children? Of course not. ANYBODY and EVERYBODY can successfully feed prey model to their pets. I know many people that work many hours, which is typical of our modern times of course. Those people make it work just as well. Some people purchase their dog's food at the same time they go shopping for their own. Me, personally I go out and buy whenever there's a sale somewhere and I now have the freezer space to store it. If you want a typical scenario from my household....; through various meat sales, I'm now pretty well stocked on various RBM's, boneless cuts, organ meats and fish. Whatever I feel like feeding, I thaw the night before and feed in the AM after our first morning walk. While I enjoy my coffee and news, my dogs eat their meals. Same game in the evening with the exception that my youngest gets to eat more often than the other two as she's very tiny and outside of those other feedings, she gets boneless cuts and organs which she can eat fairly quickly. I feed what I have. If I only have chicken, then they eat chicken until I have something else and with meat sales happening every week, anybody can build a great variety in their freezer. I advise you to join a great support group on prey model feeding. There are several other ones on yahoo, also city specific ones but this one is the main one to join! Myself and others here are also members. People of all walks of lives with many different dog breeds and their ages are members there. You will find answers to all of your questions there as well as experienced feeders guide newbies along the way. I once was a newbie myself, I was helped greatly and so I'm now paying it forward so to speak!
rawfeeding : Raw Feeding for dogs and cats!

Menu anyone?
 

Raw Feeding Recipes :rolleyes: :D :thumbup:

I have also noted a sig decline in water drinking. My lab was going through a river every day. Seriously couldn't drink enough water.

The mellowness continues in both dogs.

Last night I gave Milo the remainder of his AM chix leg and he finally went to town on the bone which he's been avoiding.

They are down to one poo a day and yesterday seemed to be Milo's detox day as his started fairly normal and ended in a tarry looking mess.

Zack had one normal but smaller poop yesterday evening. ( The day Zack moved back, he pooped 4 times in as many hours and I swear it was as big as horse poop!!)

Milo has always been so easily excitable and when you picked him up during one of those moments his heart would be pounding so fast. Now he still gets excited during play, etc----but he is more controlled and his heart rate is much more even.

I have to say that I am amazed at the changes and how quickly they occur.

We had nick named Zack, ProZack, as in, he needs some doggie therapy. He has always been a big worrier and prone to anxiety type behavior.

My DS was commenting on Zack yesterday and asking in a joking way, "Are you ill Zack?" because he's so diff.

I said, " You are witnessing something never before seen in Zack in all his 14 years----- Meet contented Zack!"

I look forward to reporting the health changes, especially in Zack, as I notice them. Zack has a sig case of arthritis in his front left leg most of all and I await a change in all that stiffness.

I can't thank you enough for this thread. I know there have been others, but something about this one nudged me to finally take the plunge.:cool:

Good Stuff!!!!
 

Good Morning to you and your dogs!
I'm glad to hear that things are going great for you guys! Those reports are interesting to me, the changes never fail to amaze me, still to this day!
Would you mind elaborating on the detox observations you made in Milo?! You also might want to take before pictures so you can then later on compare those with the after pictures for reference! The arthritis issue may or may not fully resolve as Zack is already a senior dog. But losing weight and eating a species appropriate diet will definitely benefit that! If you want a great, natural chondroitin sulfate benefactor, you can feed beef gullet and bovine trachea (may be a little hard to find but very worth the effort!) Equally, glucosamine is found in prey animal cartilage! I hate supplements and the only ones that I *will* use is fish oil capsules for those all important Omega 3's, whenever I can't get quality whole fish to feed to my dogs! Not all capsules are made equal though. Here's a great website for charts on which brands of oils are complete and which fish is low on mercury (it's the official environmental defense fund);
Fish Oil Supplements - Seafood Selector - Environmental Defense Fund
I prick one capsule, every other day, and drizzle over the meaty bone or into the food dish as they're inclined to just lick it up on most days.
Keep the reports coming! ;)
Greetings,
Nadia



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Well we just came back in from a romp in te back garden.

Zack had a very squidgy poo. When I inspected it (there's one for my resume--Poo Inspector General) it looked like ground kibble encased in watery muchus.

Milo pooed earlier and unlike yesterday's mess of many colors and textures, todays was a concise, 4 inch poo that looked like a bunch of connected balls?

Zack is getting more energy by the hour. The constant worry and nervous energy has been replaced by puppy like playfulness when we go outside.

Milo too is experiencing the same puppy like playfulness to engage us as well.

Lots of rolling and making random noises.
:cool:

Oh--& thanks for the links!

Thank you so much for the additional info & links! :) I suspect I am over-thinking the whole meal planning thing....

ok so i am going to start out with chicken ... and being as little as they are...

yoshi is about to turn 1 in 2 weeks is 3 lbs
meiling is 5 months 2.75 lbs
kioko is 4 months and 2.65 lbs

would 1 chicken wing and a few gizzards and heart pieces per meal be enough for each one?

and for the other 3
kaine is 9 years old 7 lbs
kandie is about to be 4 who is 6.65 lbs
tootsie is about to be 3 who is 7.65 lbs

would a hind leg quarter, few pieces of gizzards and heart be enough?

thanks

I completely agree with you. :thumbup: My dogs health is far more important than what is easy or convenient for me.

How much?
 

Glad to see you back and glad to see you trying the switch! Congrats and good for you AND for your dogs.
First off, I'd like to let you in on a little prey model secret, lol ;);
The ages of the dogs, absolutely do not matter. No need to worry about different life stages and their accompanying k*bble anymore, which is a scam in the first place. Growing puppies eat a lot. Regardless of what they're being fed. Chicken wings are not that great of a muscle meat source as wings are very bony, meaning wings should not be used as the only meat source! If you have wings then you should also add a bit of boneless meat of whatever source available to you! I would also hold off on the organ meats for one week, until all dogs have gotten more used to the new diet. Introduce new meats and organs gradually. Too much variety, too soon is not recommended. Stick with one protein source for a week and then move on to the next protein and so on and so forth. Once the dogs had everything and poops seem normal, then you can feed whatever you want, whenever you want. So, freeze those organs until next week! :)
I personally started out with chicken drumsticks for all dogs, all sizes. And for the unexperienced and the smaller sized dogs, it's a good idea to cut into the meat a couple of times with a knife to make it easier to get pieces off. You can also remove the skins if it seems like they're having a hard time getting to the "good" stuff. Remember, all those things are temporary and while they seem cumbersome now, as the dogs get used to eating this way and get more experienced, those little "tricks" will be a thing of the past!
Once all of meat and skin is off then they'll start working on the bone and cartilage.
Let me know how that works for you and don't forget, even if I may not be available at the moment that you need to ask someone for advise, that yahoo group has tons of info stored in the database and email answer turn around time is pretty fast! :thumbup: ;)



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The Poop Chronicles part 1
 

In my own personal experience, the mucous in the poop was during the detox stages and the "string of little balls" is how all of my dogs poop! A small, black string of balls, sometimes twists. I know; poop inspector is probably the right term, here! :p :eek:



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You're welcome!!! The whole thing *seems* overwhelming at first, but it really isn't, promise! :)



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I should have clarified....I am very willing to spend extra time. I am just very much an organized, "planner" type person. So I would not be the type to just go buy pounds of various meats without having a plan. Not that this is wrong at all, I realize it probably is the most cost-effective way. I just can't, mentally, do it that way and keep my sanity. (I buy meat in bulk on sale for us....but always have planned in my head what I will do with it, for example.)

I want to be able to bag up, say a month's worth, at once, with each day labeled--and pre-planned...like having the bit of liver included already in the bag two days a week, instead of having to remember that I need to give liver two days a week. Because the fact is that I won't remember which days I gave liver and how much. I know logically that in the long run these things even out. But it would bug me to no end not to KNOW it......I know that sounds crazy to those of you who are very laid-back about stuff.

Planner
 

I get that! I shop with my own meals planned in my head in advance. After all, I'm German, born and raised in Germany to German parents so technically I wake up with my house already clean as I cleaned the night before and tonight's dinner has already been cooked :rolleyes:.......
I take one piece of meaty bone for each dog and put it in a ziplock bag and label and date it from when it was purchased on with a sharpie. Everything gets frozen the same day it was purchased. I generously pre cut the boneless pieces of meat/organs and handle those in the same manner. Nothing wrong with a little organization and sanitation! :) So each baggie is one meal's worth for all dogs together, so reaching in there and grabbing an entire day's worth is easy.
You will figure out your own groove and discover valuable short cuts along the way!





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LOLOL I absolutely LOVE to wake up to a clean house. Unfortunately, my husband does not share this affection for tidiness. :rolleyes: I really appreciate all the information you have provided, it is tremendously helpful.

I have a question that I am almost embarrassed to ask....I feel better because I have asked 3 friends already and they do not know either....<whispering> what exactly are chicken backs????

I know chicken wings, thighs, breasts, gizzards, legs, and on and on....but what does the back consist of? I have never seen anything labeled as such, and pulled up websites showing extensive diagrams of various chicken parts, but none showed it. I know you guys are probably ROFL over this silly question, but I just have to ask it. :p

I'm not the only one?!

Yes! That's it! :thumbup:

Not yet back, more brown though.

No Laughing Matter
 

Chicken backs are not generally offered in regular grocery stores are they're viewed as undesirable due to the mostly bony content thus making them a *cheap* cut of meat. Most ethnic stores have them available as ethnic cooking consists of a lot of "old school" type of cooking, aka soups from scratch where such cuts would be desirable. If you can visualize an entire chicken; take away the breasts, wings, thighs, drumsticks (am I missing something? LOL) what you're left with is the chicken back. It starts right below where the chicken neck used to be and ends at the butt, rofl. Like a somewhat narrow, long piece of bony piece of meat. I guess I had predisposition to this kind of stuff as pretty much my entire family consists of master butchers, butchers and chefs. My uncle in Germany had a butchery and grandpa was master butcher in a large slaughter house! Oh, would that be useful to me now!!!! *Day Dreaming* :D :D :D

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Ahhhhh. Well, I feel a little better for not knowing what it is! :) I will ask the butcher, but it sounds like I would have to stick with the more common offerings. Chicken legs are relatively inexpensive here, compared with the other parts.

LOL So you didn't have the "ick" factor to deal with :) Actually, I am not very squeamish about the raw meat...the only things I've seen that I really don't like to look at or touch are the feet. Those actually look like they used to be an animal, the other stuff doesn't to me. My husband is a paramedic, and I look through his books all the time, and hear the gory stories while I'm cooking supper. :eek:

Everybody content?
 

Does the silence mean that everybody is comfy? No more questions? :eek:
We could just let this thread die and start a new one on observations made in our dogs since switching to RAW/Prey Model. What do you guys think?

Sounds okay to me.:thumbup:

I went dog food shopping today and the cashier asked me if I was the one who raw feeds her dog.

I said this is my first time so I'm not that "one", but another "one."

She asked me all kinds of q's and then the cashier behind me started asking q's too.

I bought:

chix legs
chix drumettes
chix backs
Beef heart
chix hearts
chix livers
bnls/sknls thighs

So I'll be portioning tonight.

Milo licked some heart and liver but did not actually eat any.:rolleyes:

My dogs has issues eating bones and organs in the very beginning. I had to cut everything up in small pieces. Now, they just crunch away lol

They loooooove turkey necks (ewwww!) and chicken gizzards and hearts (double ewwwww!) :D

I don't get turkey necks (never seen them) but chicken gizzards and hearts are SoCo's favorite BY FAR. Most of his food has to be out for a while so it can get to room temp for his highness... not the gizzards and hearts, that's eaten almost frozen (if we waited too long to take it out before his meal time). He's a big fan of liver but won't touch kidney. This is fine with me since I think they are both gross but kidney is beyond disgusting - it smells like urine, ewwwwwwwwwwwww.

Tara :)

Only took Milo a day to start bone crunching so I'm hoping the same with the organs.

The little hearts and livers don't bother me.

I stood in the store holding the big beef heart and wondering if they would cut it up for me----decided it wasn't going to be a big deal, but worried because:

A couple years back I bought 1/2 a cow from someone and had it butchered and they asked if I wanted the liver. I said yes because I would give it to the dogs.

My only ref was beef liver from the store.

That stuff is sliced and packaged.

The whole thing is enormous!!!!:eek: And the thing just grows the more you cut it..........like something out of a horror movie.:eek:

I was traumatized for life I tell ya---- walked away gagging and DH finished the job.:rolleyes:

LOL LOL LOL :sidesplt: :sidesplt: :sidesplt:
Liver gives me a bad "vibe", too and I don't like touching it! One of my favorite's is browned pork liver with onions and potatoes. If I have to prepare it, I can't eat it! That smell will stay on your fingers for days! So I only get to eat this now whenever I visit my parents in Germany and my mom cooks it for me!
Heart is different. It's not quite so spongy as liver is. It cuts like beets or squid. I found that in order to keep the mess contained, I cut organs while they're semi frozen. One time at my beginning stages of prey model, I bought every kind of organ meat that I could find and then stuck everything in my large food processor for a pureed multi organ cocktail. Needless to say I had to throw away my processor as the smell still lingered even after a couple of washes. I had the perfect organ juice to serve to my babies and while they loved licking this up it was just a big mess all around. It dripped all over my kitchen and my dogs had nice little organ juice mustaches!
Yep, I got a couple of blunders like that! :rolleyes: :eek: :p



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