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Old 06-25-2012, 02:54 PM   #1
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Cry Shunt Surgery Needed- Please help

Well Charlies results came back today there was no waiting involved. His Acid bile levels were way off the charts both fasting and after he ate.

Normal fasting Bile acid should be <13 Charlies was 30.3
Normal post meal Bile acid should be <25 Charlies was 71.3

Normal BUN is 6-31 Charlies was 32
Normal Neutrophils is 60-77 Charlies is 78

All other labs were normal

But this means that he has a shunt and that he should have surgery to correct it but I just dont know where I would get that kind of money ($3000-$5000). The surgery to remove bladder stones wiped out savings.

The vet has changed his diet to a food called prescription diet l/d and I will start him on a supplement called Vetra SAM-e it is supposed to help clean the toxins from his system like the liver should be doing.

An ultrasound with doppler can be done ($400) to see if they can visualize the shunt but there are no guarantees if the shunt is intrahepatic it would not be seen on an ultrasound. surgery is also very risky (I knew this) but they made apoint to tell me that.

They say that the diet and supplement could buy him time but that he would probably get the stones again and be in the same place

If anyone has gone through this I would really appreciate some advise maybe you have tried something that I havent yet

Here is my original post it has more information
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...ml#post3956327
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:07 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Charlies Mamma View Post
Well Charlies results came back today there was no waiting involved. His Acid bile levels were way off the charts both fasting and after he ate.

Normal fasting Bile acid should be <13 Charlies was 30.3
Normal post meal Bile acid should be <25 Charlies was 71.3

Normal BUN is 6-31 Charlies was 32
Normal Neutrophils is 60-77 Charlies is 78

All other labs were normal

But this means that he has a shunt and that he should have surgery to correct it but I just dont know where I would get that kind of money ($3000-$5000). The surgery to remove bladder stones wiped out savings.

The vet has changed his diet to a food called prescription diet l/d and I will start him on a supplement called Vetra SAM-e it is supposed to help clean the toxins from his system like the liver should be doing.

An ultrasound with doppler can be done ($400) to see if they can visualize the shunt but there are no guarantees if the shunt is intrahepatic it would not be seen on an ultrasound. surgery is also very risky (I knew this) but they made apoint to tell me that.

They say that the diet and supplement could buy him time but that he would probably get the stones again and be in the same place

If anyone has gone through this I would really appreciate some advise maybe you have tried something that I havent yet

Here is my original post it has more information
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...ml#post3956327

oh i am so sorry . i hope your baby will be ok. i don't know anything about liver shunt.
i do know that you can apply for Care Credit and you can pay for all of the expenses with it.. here is the website. i think you can apply online. i think they also have a link where you find participating vets.....

CareCredit Veterinary Financing for Pet Care, Pet Surgery, Vaccinations & Other Veterinary Medicine Procedures
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:23 PM   #3
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gosh I am so sorry to hear this about your baby! It is a hard long road that I watched a dear friend travel. I'm sending prayers for the both of you
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:27 PM   #4
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I'm sorry.

Liver shunt can't be diagnosed with bile acid testing alone. Diagnostic imaging would be done before opening him up. Microvascular dysplasia is possible. That is like microscopic shunting throughout the liver and is not surgical but manageable medically. You boy needs to see an internal medicine specialist at a major specialty center or vet school for future assessment. The surgery is risky but not terribly so if done by the right people on an otherwise stable pup.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:29 PM   #5
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I'm so very sorry to read this, I know how terrifing the road to is to a major surgery. Sending prayers for sweet Charlie.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:36 PM   #6
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Yes some of us have gone through it. My dog had worse #s. I second Ellie May's advice that you need an internal med specialist.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:37 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Charlies Mamma View Post
Well Charlies results came back today there was no waiting involved. His Acid bile levels were way off the charts both fasting and after he ate.

Normal fasting Bile acid should be <13 Charlies was 30.3
Normal post meal Bile acid should be <25 Charlies was 71.3

Normal BUN is 6-31 Charlies was 32
Normal Neutrophils is 60-77 Charlies is 78

All other labs were normal

But this means that he has a shunt and that he should have surgery to correct it but I just dont know where I would get that kind of money ($3000-$5000). The surgery to remove bladder stones wiped out savings.

The vet has changed his diet to a food called prescription diet l/d and I will start him on a supplement called Vetra SAM-e it is supposed to help clean the toxins from his system like the liver should be doing.

An ultrasound with doppler can be done ($400) to see if they can visualize the shunt but there are no guarantees if the shunt is intrahepatic it would not be seen on an ultrasound. surgery is also very risky (I knew this) but they made apoint to tell me that.

They say that the diet and supplement could buy him time but that he would probably get the stones again and be in the same place

If anyone has gone through this I would really appreciate some advise maybe you have tried something that I havent yet

Here is my original post it has more information
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...ml#post3956327
No, no, no. This is not right. How'd they get the results back so fast? Who said they were 'off the charts'?

Bile Acid test results that are off the charts are more like 300-400, pre and post.

Your dog is 12 years old? I think I'd wait and sorry, but find a new vet for a second opinion, and redo the BAT in a month or so. If he had a shunt (the bloodwork does not validate that accessment) he would have had symptoms before now, especially if it was one that required surgery.

I would wait and retest, seriously. Low protein diet for now is okay and the liver med won't hurt him. Are the stones his only symptom?

My dog had recurring UTIs and had LS surgery... I've had her on Coconut oil for a year now (since her surgery) and the stones and UTIs have never come back. She is on L/D and meds, as her surgery was unsuccessful.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:45 PM   #8
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No, no, no. This is not right. How'd they get the results back so fast? Who said they were 'off the charts'?

Bile Acid test results that are off the charts are more like 300-400, pre and post.

Your dog is 12 years old? I think I'd wait and sorry, but find a new vet for a second opinion, and redo the BAT in a month or so. If he had a shunt (the bloodwork does not validate that accessment) he would have had symptoms before now, especially if it was one that required surgery.

I would wait and retest, seriously. Low protein diet for now is okay and the liver med won't hurt him. Are the stones his only symptom?

My dog had recurring UTIs and had LS surgery... I've had her on Coconut oil for a year now (since her surgery) and the stones and UTIs have never come back. She is on L/D and meds, as her surgery was unsuccessful.
No Charlie is only 5 and he has has problems with pancreatitis for the last yr or so. His vet feels that the pancreatitis could be a secondary effect of a possible shunt. the vet gave me an internal specialist to see as they do not do the surgery there they too said that a specialist needed to be the ones to do this if I go through with it. Charlie has not had UTIs to my knowledge but has always had stomach issues recently, he just all the sudden could not urinate and it went down hill thats how they found the stones it all happened in a matter of 24 hours.

Now the stones has been there for some time apparently but one got stuck in the urethra which is what caused the blockage. His vets really are very good they saved his life almost a year ago when the pancreatitis was discovered and they have never tried to make me do anything I wasnt comfortable with. I guess I need to make the appt with the specialist and start there once again, that will at least be less expensive at this point.

And do I understand that your baby had shunt surgery but it didnt work? what about it didnt work?? it is supposed to make it so that the toxins are once again filtered through the liver correct?

Charlie is not eating the l/d so im not sure what else to try, Im going to have to look up a low protein diet
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:08 PM   #9
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Please!!!!! You can go to Dr.Tobias at University of Tenn.....She and her team knows this "disease" better than anyone in the United States! I would NOT spend one more dime with another living soul....I would head to Dr.Tobias, with Charlie tucked under my arm, and these people know exactly what needs to be done and how to do it!!! AND I THINK THEY DO IT LESS EXPENSIVELY THAN MOST PRIVATE VETS!!!
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:15 PM   #10
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No Charlie is only 5 and he has has problems with pancreatitis for the last yr or so. His vet feels that the pancreatitis could be a secondary effect of a possible shunt. the vet gave me an internal specialist to see as they do not do the surgery there they too said that a specialist needed to be the ones to do this if I go through with it. Charlie has not had UTIs to my knowledge but has always had stomach issues recently, he just all the sudden could not urinate and it went down hill thats how they found the stones it all happened in a matter of 24 hours.

Now the stones has been there for some time apparently but one got stuck in the urethra which is what caused the blockage. His vets really are very good they saved his life almost a year ago when the pancreatitis was discovered and they have never tried to make me do anything I wasnt comfortable with. I guess I need to make the appt with the specialist and start there once again, that will at least be less expensive at this point.

And do I understand that your baby had shunt surgery but it didnt work? what about it didnt work?? it is supposed to make it so that the toxins are once again filtered through the liver correct?

Charlie is not eating the l/d so im not sure what else to try, Im going to have to look up a low protein diet
Tinkerbell had other issues going on , mainly with her gall bladder. She had sludge in the duct from the liver to the GB which caused acquired shunting to occur. (Creates pressure in the liver, the liver makes new shunts to relieve the pressure). When the doc went in, he said she had shunting literally everywhere, so he didn't do any repairs or tie the main shunt off. He cleared her bladder of stones, said her kidneys looked fine, and closed her up.

She was put on a med to thin out the bile, Ursodiol, for 8 months. He said she would need to come back in for more surgeries to clean out her bladder, as needed. I read where coconut oil is believed to disolve kidney stones in humans, don't know if it's true or not, but I figured it was worth a try. I'd rather give her CO than have countless surgeries done on her. Since she's been on the coconut oil, she's had no UTIs, no bloody urine, and no stones.

The L/D Is around 18% protein, and it has a higher fat content, as I've been told by my vet that the fat is beneficial to the liver and it's functioning. She gets no red meats, and no turkey (too high in purines). I top her food with 2% milkfat cottage cheese, or yogurt, and she can have most vegetables, so it keeps her interested. She can have noodles too. She loves them.
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:32 PM   #11
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The L/D Is around 18% protein, and it has a higher fat content, as I've been told by my vet that the fat is beneficial to the liver and it's functioning. She gets no red meats, and no turkey (too high in purines). I top her food with 2% milkfat cottage cheese, or yogurt, and she can have most vegetables, so it keeps her interested. She can have noodles too. She loves them.
Charlie has been on a diet of boiled chicken and rice for the last year or so... no fatty foods so that the pancreatitis woudnt act up. He is just looking at me like wheres my chicken. Charlie does like yogurt but I have never tried cottage cheese. I think its going to be hard to get him to try anything else and I dont want him to be hungry.
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:40 PM   #12
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Charlie has been on a diet of boiled chicken and rice for the last year or so... no fatty foods so that the pancreatitis woudnt act up. He is just looking at me like wheres my chicken. Charlie does like yogurt but I have never tried cottage cheese. I think its going to be hard to get him to try anything else and I dont want him to be hungry.
Sometimes I put a little bit of chicken on Tink's food, especially if she's feeling a little off. I cut it up in tiny pieces and mix it in with her L/D, so she can't pick it out, lol.
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:05 PM   #13
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Sometimes I put a little bit of chicken on Tink's food, especially if she's feeling a little off. I cut it up in tiny pieces and mix it in with her L/D, so she can't pick it out, lol.
ah yes I witnessed the "pick out" tonight. I cut up the chicken and mixed it all together but he took big mouth fulls and then spit out the l/d.
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:10 PM   #14
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ah yes I witnessed the "pick out" tonight. I cut up the chicken and mixed it all together but he took big mouth fulls and then spit out the l/d.
you could try mixing in some Gerber's Stage 2 Baby Food chicken... although he'll probably just lick it off the L/D, lol.

Keep trying it with him though. Sometimes it can take 3-4 or more days for them to try something new. Maybe a sprinkle of Parmesan cheese on top would intice him...
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:14 PM   #15
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you could try mixing in some Gerber's Stage 2 Baby Food chicken... although he'll probably just lick it off the L/D, lol.

Keep trying it with him though. Sometimes it can take 3-4 or more days for them to try something new. Maybe a sprinkle of Parmesan cheese on top would intice him...
well i will try again in the morning and see how it goes it has been a long day m gonna go to bed thank you for helping Ill be back on tomorrow to update.
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