Daisy's in the hospital!!! I'm Heartbroken

[yorkieusa]

Sending prayers she will be fine...

[spiritwings1202]

Originally Posted by dwerten

yeah I just would hold off until everything is normal as when exercising the body tears down and rebuilds so right now I would just rest her as much as possible

I really think she is going to be fine

I hope your'e right Deb. I look at her tonight and her harness is sagging on her and she has hyper-pigmentation two spots where they shaved her leg and some on her belly. They are not waxy though. I need to get a picture but Daisy is one of those dogs that rarely lets you touch her belly. I a going to try to get a picture.

I was on the liver support group and someone said that she could have hepatic microvascular dyaplasia
ugh!!! I just wish they knew what was definitely wrong with her I just want a solid diagnosis.
The Vets told me today that Daisy's case was very rare and complicated
It is so darn frustrating

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by spiritwings1202

I hope your'e right Deb. I look at her tonight and her harness is sagging on her and she has hyper-pigmentation two spots where they shaved her leg and some on her belly. They are not waxy though. I need to get a picture but Daisy is one of those dogs that rarely lets you touch her belly. I a going to try to get a picture.

I was on the liver support group and someone said that she could have hepatic microvascular dyaplasia
ugh!!! I just wish they knew what was definitely wrong with her I just want a solid diagnosis.
The Vets told me today that Daisy's case was very rare and complicated
It is so darn frustrating

that is MVD as they call it HMD or MVD - same thing

to know for sure they run bile acid test and do a pre (prior to food) and post 2 hrs after food.

Trust me I know about tough cases dd is a nightmare for 5 1/2 years - love her dearly but it is not easy. You will get through this just give it time and be patient. She is keeping her food down - just keep up the liver support and homecooking and give her liver time to repair.

It took my friend's dogs a couple weeks of zucchini juicing and milk thistle for the liver values to go down after they ate a toxic plant so it does take some time

[linda44]

Glad to hear Daisy is stealing your water again and keeping her food down. All good things! Im sure just having her home is relief in itself. Keeping the prayers coming.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by kjc

Hi. I've been following this thread, but didn't feel the need to post till now.

Just wanted to say that first: I hope and pray that Daisy is doing well and feeling better.

Second: Don't get too freaked out about those numbers. My LS dog ingested rancid cooking grease (amt unknown) and puked for 2-3 days. I was suspicious of Pancreatitis, so took her in to be checked. Her ALT was 433 and AST 230, no Pancreatitis. Recheck in one month ALT=544, AST=299. All I learned was that ALT generally means liver cell death. She is on Denamarin which protects the cells and supports liver cell regeneration. It is normal for the AST to increase concurrently with the ALT. It took 3 months for her values to drop. And they increased the first month!

4doggiesmama's Chipper's ALT was 1830, and had slightly elevated BATS. Due to be retested... need to check for an update.

Question: Daisy had crystals in her urine in the beginning of June? UTI and crystals can be frequent occurence in dogs with LS/MVD.

She was put on pain meds for limping? Tramadol? Maybe combination of Tramadol (in her system) with the Doxy caused liver problem? Just a thought. Or Phenobarbitol (barbiturate) will affect liver enzymes... don't know how close to Tramidol (opiate agonists) that is or effect on liver enzymes.

A small liver on xray can be indicative of LS, but for a 6 year old IDK, thought it would have been discovered before now. Any Xrays previously
taken to compare with? Even from different vet? Years ago?

Just some thoughts... also, many times the exact reason(s) for elevated ALT is never found, just providing liver support seems to eventually help the liver to heal itself over time.

Hope this has helped... Praying for sweet Daisy..

My 13 YO Peek a Boo's life was saved when he contracted pneumonia... vet put him on Doxy.(for a month)

Originally Posted by spiritwings1202

yes Daisy had crystals in her urine and was prescribed trimadol but I only gave her two pills bc it made her too spaced out and I figured I would only use it when she was in severe pain.
Daisy has only had 2 UTI in her life once when she was 2 and another one when she was 5. Daisy developed crystals in june Daisy is 6 1/2.
Okay this is good.

If the liver is small my question is why? Can it heal itself or is it sadly too late. I have racked my brains at what went wrong but I have to say I have always been pretty careful with Daisy and what I fed her and what vacinations she got. They always have to give Daisy a shot of benydral beofre a vacintaion bc she has horrible reactions. I take Daisy to get one shot at a time.
Many dogs are just born with small livers. It can regenerate, to an extent, depending on what is wrong. A functioning liver will regenerate for the life of the dog. It's what they do. The small liver may be part of her problem with handling vaccines. You may be able to get a medical release to not vaccinate her due to adverse reactions... ask your vet about this. Nothing you have done caused the problems she's having now.

I don't know what went wrong and I wish I could rewind the tape of life and fix whatever did go wrong but I can't and I am heart sick that this has happend and I will blame myself forever if she doesn't pull through bc I did NOT research the doxycycline.

This is really no fault of yours. You couldn't have prevented it no matter what you would/could have done. And, all drugs have side effects, some bad, some not so bad. These types of situations are impossible to predict, even for your vet, without doing thousands of dollars worth of testing, for no apparent reasons. There is no way you could have researched Doxycycline and taken into account all the variables to come up with forseeing this outcome.

In short, almost all liver disease is treated the same way: usually protein restricted diet (less junk for the liver to remove), and homeopathic therapy (liver support: Denamarin or similar medication), and time to allow the liver to heal itself. The Denamarim prevents free-radicals from causing cell death, and helps the liver in cell regeneration.

Originally Posted by spiritwings1202

Her ALP is still high
ALT was 1800 now 600 Super!
ALP was 1900 now 1600 it had dropped to 1400 but jumped back up to 1600 Hmm. See remarks below.
GGT was 68 and now is 44 Super!
Who was the person here on YT that had a dog with liver disease? my brain is so mixed up from all the information that I have had to research and yesterday my son called and I thought it was Friday night
I am forgetting where I put things sometimes I think I am losing my mind.

Did they do a CBC? Were any microcytic cells noted?

Your vet really needs to interpret these results, because certain combinations of these liver enzymes being elevated and how far elevated is what they look at. It is very good that the ALT has dropped considerably. My understanding is that the liver is clearing whatever is affecting it (possible toxin= anything that does not agree with and causes harm to the liver cells).

Something you need to understand: The liver, pancreas, and gall bladder all work closely together. These liver enzymes can indicate a problem in any one of these organs, depending on the combination and elevations. So this can be a major factor in the difficulty of narrowing down the exact cause.

Another thing: toxic plants and steroids (pills or topically applies creams) can affect the ALP.

Has the vet done an ultrasound? This may help to see what's happening with the gall bladder, as stones can cause a blockage and increase ALP, and other organs.

And the big 'C'. We all think about this and no one likes to talk about it, but Please remember that tumors can be benign, and may cause changes which may be detected on an ultrasound.

Secondary hyperparathyroidism can also raise the ALP.

I hope I haven't confused you further. I am still researching alot of this stuff in relation to my own dog, who has LS.

I do know exactly how you are feeling. I was wracking my brain for weeks, maybe months, trying to figure things out, and thinking I hurt my dog by feeding her the wrong food/treats/supplements/not watching her close enough...etc. Panic mode, basically. It's a scary place to be, and no one gives you the answers you are looking for. I even paid the 'Ask-A-Vet' online service!

Please relax a little. I know how these lab numbers can freak a person out. The most you can do, you're doing it. Proper food and meds for liver support.

Liver disease/problems are slow to be diagnosed... it's more a process, where most tests tell you right off what's wrong, like high white cell count means an infection, or specific tests for other disease like Lymes or heartworm, you know right away. Liver stuff is more complicated, and takes a combination of a few different tests, and repeated bloodwork to narrow things down.

And realize too, this may end up as something that needs to be managed, like MVD, where there is no cure, per say, but with proper care, diet, meds, you can maintain a quality and quantity of life. I think this was my major frustration. Tell me what it is so we can fix it. Just know, some things can't be fixed, but you learn how to live with them.

When my Mom visits, she always asks,"Which one is the sick one?" And, so far, I've always been able to say "It's that one, the one running around like a nut, jumping up, wanting to give kisses, bringing the toys out to play, and barking like a maniac!" And she says "Are you sure?"

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by kjc

This is really no fault of yours. You couldn't have prevented it no matter what you would/could have done. And, all drugs have side effects, some bad, some not so bad. These types of situations are impossible to predict, even for your vet, without doing thousands of dollars worth of testing, for no apparent reasons. There is no way you could have researched Doxycycline and taken into account all the variables to come up with forseeing this outcome.

In short, almost all liver disease is treated the same way: usually protein restricted diet (less junk for the liver to remove), and homeopathic therapy (liver support: Denamarin or similar medication), and time to allow the liver to heal itself. The Denamarim prevents free-radicals from causing cell death, and helps the liver in cell regeneration.



Did they do a CBC? Were any microcytic cells noted?

Your vet really needs to interpret these results, because certain combinations of these liver enzymes being elevated and how far elevated is what they look at. It is very good that the ALT has dropped considerably. My understanding is that the liver is clearing whatever is affecting it (possible toxin= anything that does not agree with and causes harm to the liver cells).

Something you need to understand: The liver, pancreas, and gall bladder all work closely together. These liver enzymes can indicate a problem in any one of these organs, depending on the combination and elevations. So this can be a major factor in the difficulty of narrowing down the exact cause.

Another thing: toxic plants and steroids (pills or topically applies creams) can affect the ALP.

Has the vet done an ultrasound? This may help to see what's happening with the gall bladder, as stones can cause a blockage and increase ALP, and other organs.

And the big 'C'. We all think about this and no one likes to talk about it, but Please remember that tumors can be benign, and may cause changes which may be detected on an ultrasound.

Secondary hyperparathyroidism can also raise the ALP.

I hope I haven't confused you further. I am still researching alot of this stuff in relation to my own dog, who has LS.

I do know exactly how you are feeling. I was wracking my brain for weeks, maybe months, trying to figure things out, and thinking I hurt my dog by feeding her the wrong food/treats/supplements/not watching her close enough...etc. Panic mode, basically. It's a scary place to be, and no one gives you the answers you are looking for. I even paid the 'Ask-A-Vet' online service!

Please relax a little. I know how these lab numbers can freak a person out. The most you can do, you're doing it. Proper food and meds for liver support.

Liver disease/problems are slow to be diagnosed... it's more a process, where most tests tell you right off what's wrong, like high white cell count means an infection, or specific tests for other disease like Lymes or heartworm, you know right away. Liver stuff is more complicated, and takes a combination of a few different tests, and repeated bloodwork to narrow things down.

And realize too, this may end up as something that needs to be managed, like MVD, where there is no cure, per say, but with proper care, diet, meds, you can maintain a quality and quantity of life. I think this was my major frustration. Tell me what it is so we can fix it. Just know, some things can't be fixed, but you learn how to live with them.

When my Mom visits, she always asks,"Which one is the sick one?" And, so far, I've always been able to say "It's that one, the one running around like a nut, jumping up, wanting to give kisses, bringing the toys out to play, and barking like a maniac!" And she says "Are you sure?"

Great post

lol that is funny as my dee dee is the most active one wanting to play all the time too

I think they did the ultrasound and that is how they knew the liver was small but they did not note anything else going on from what she posted

so true some things there is no cure for but you give the best possible outcome and keep them comfortable and do the best you can with diet and liver support. I would prefer to deal with liver over allergies any day.

what is interesting is dd is on steroids now for a few years and has mvd yet her alp has never been elevated nor her ALT.

[Connie]

Hi Joyce...just checking in for updates. I will keep praying for Daisie's recovery. Sending hugs to you. I hope you can get some good rest tonight!

[kjc]

Thanks Deb... I'll get back to you on that....


I forgot to mention Corticosteroids too, in prescription eyedrops...can affect the ALP.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by kjc

Thanks Deb... I'll get back to you on that....


I forgot to mention Corticosteroids too, in prescription eyedrops...can affect the ALP.

yeah i am aware of the topicals too as anything you put on the skin goes into the blood stream. Also topical steroids think out the skin as well and why i do not use them and use coconut oil for skin issues. DD is taking prednisolone which is broken down prednisone so the liver does not have to work as hard to break it down. She is on a very low dose and we do every other day to be the safest to keep adrenals working on off days normally.

I am just wondering if this doxy is a much stronger drug or if given in higher doses it affects the liver even greater than steroids

[Wylie's Mom]

Joyce, sending some hugs and support for you and puppy kisses for Daisy. It's so scary and frustrating when you don't have answers...it can feel very helpless. You're both in my thoughts and I hope you get answers soon.

I got your profile msg about Cushings and I msg'd you back with info. I have a ton more info, but don't want to overwhelm you either...so let me know if/when you want/need more .

[terlis]

Sending good wishes your way

[love_08]

sending some love from juicy && I. I will be praying for you and your baby.

[kjc]

My intent is to help you understand, not to confuse you more. The info I choose to present comes from my own research and some personal experience. I present it to you so that when you have discussions with your vet, you can go in with a broader knowledge base and a deeper understanding of what may be going on with your dog, not diagnosing here at all, just emphasizing what may be important things to consider asking the vet about. If this is overloading you or is too much info, let me know and I will stop posting.

Originally Posted by spiritwings1202

As you know Daisy was diagnosed with lyme disease about 2 weeks ago and they put her on doxycycline.
Well thursday Daisy threw up her food and I called the vet and she said to give her pepcid ac about 30 min before her meal and then about another 30 min give her the meds.
she threw up this morning and yesterday she was acting depressed so I made an appointment.

From my research, Doxy is the drug of choice to treat TBD, and it is common practice to give a higher dose (double the norm) in treating these diseases, as a more agressive protocol is what has been found to be most effective. Some meds may react with Doxy, your vet would research this before administering/prescribing.

Originally Posted by spiritwings1202

When they examined her her abdomen was warm to the touch And very sore. She whimpered when they touched it.
She was a little dehydrated from the vomiting.
They admitted her and said that they thought it was pancreatitis. they were going to call me with some test results.

Just a note: Pancreatitis usually presents as back pain, and a dog may have difficulty walking. Gall Bladder problems usually present as abdominal pain... I say usually, because I am sure there are cases that present themselves differently for other reasons.

Originally Posted by spiritwings1202

They also took xrays.

They said that in t6he xrays everything looked good They ruled out pancreatitis.

But.... it might be liver disease or possibly liver cancer
her ALT--1800
ALP-- 1900
GGT---68

They want to do an ultra sound with a specialist on monday.
wouldn't an xray show a tumor?

I also read that doxycycline can cause liver damage

Please pray that it is NOT Liver cancer!!!!! omg!!! I can't lose my Daisy Doo

An ultrasound can give a clearer picture of what is going on, like live TV opposed to hitting the 'pause' button. They can move and manipulate the dog to get a better look at specific organs and watch what is happening.
An xray may show a tumor, if it is in the direct field of vision, but alot can be missed on an xray.

Many drugs can cause liver damage, the good thing is that when the drugs are stopped, the liver will repair itself, in most cases.

This is the absolute best link I have come across explaining bloodwork:

The diagnostic approach to asymptomatic dogs with elevated liver enzyme activities - Veterinary Medicine=

Originally Posted by dwerten

I think they did the ultrasound and that is how they knew the liver was small but they did not note anything else going on from what she posted.

They did an Xray.

Originally Posted by dwerten

what is interesting is dd is on steroids now for a few years and has mvd yet her alp has never been elevated nor her ALT.

My dog had high ALT, AST, with ALP wnl.

What tests lead to suspicion/diagnosis of MVD, or did you just decide to do a BAT?

Also to note: L/D dry is Brewers Rice, Pork fat...etc. 14.5% protein, 20.5% crude fat. The L/D canned is: water, rice, egg product, chicken fat...etc and is 4.5% protein, 6% fat. (need to do Dry Weight conversion to get a better number for comparison... there's a link in the YT Library))

LS dogs are usually always thin, hard to get them to put and keep any weight on. My pup is doing great on this and has gained 2 pounds. Also, this is the food/diet recommended by Dr. Tobias, Uof Tenn. to LS dogs. They say it is the best thing one can to, that makes the most good effects when getting a dog up to a more acceptable level of health (like while waiting for tests and pre surgery).

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by kjc

My intent is to help you understand, not to confuse you more. The info I choose to present comes from my own research and some personal experience. I present it to you so that when you have discussions with your vet, you can go in with a broader knowledge base and a deeper understanding of what may be going on with your dog, not diagnosing here at all, just emphasizing what may be important things to consider asking the vet about. If this is overloading you or is too much info, let me know and I will stop posting.



From my research, Doxy is the drug of choice to treat TBD, and it is common practice to give a higher dose (double the norm) in treating these diseases, as a more agressive protocol is what has been found to be most effective. Some meds may react with Doxy, your vet would research this before administering/prescribing.



Just a note: Pancreatitis usually presents as back pain, and a dog may have difficulty walking. Gall Bladder problems usually present as abdominal pain... I say usually, because I am sure there are cases that present themselves differently for other reasons.



An ultrasound can give a clearer picture of what is going on, like live TV opposed to hitting the 'pause' button. They can move and manipulate the dog to get a better look at specific organs and watch what is happening.
An xray may show a tumor, if it is in the direct field of vision, but alot can be missed on an xray.

Many drugs can cause liver damage, the good thing is that when the drugs are stopped, the liver will repair itself, in most cases.

This is the absolute best link I have come across explaining bloodwork:

The diagnostic approach to asymptomatic dogs with elevated liver enzyme activities - Veterinary Medicine=



They did an Xray.



My dog had high ALT, AST, with ALP wnl.

What tests lead to suspicion/diagnosis of MVD, or did you just decide to do a BAT?

Also to note: L/D dry is Brewers Rice, Pork fat...etc. 14.5% protein, 20.5% crude fat. The L/D canned is: water, rice, egg product, chicken fat...etc and is 4.5% protein, 6% fat. (need to do Dry Weight conversion to get a better number for comparison... there's a link in the YT Library))

LS dogs are usually always thin, hard to get them to put and keep any weight on. My pup is doing great on this and has gained 2 pounds. Also, this is the food/diet recommended by Dr. Tobias, Uof Tenn. to LS dogs. They say it is the best thing one can to, that makes the most good effects when getting a dog up to a more acceptable level of health (like while waiting for tests and pre surgery).

with dex pancreatitis never noticed back pain it was all abdominal pain through palpatation. He was so uncomfortable he was tossing and turning and could not get comfortable and then massive vomitting over and over so i rushed him in immediately.

They ran bats on dee dee bc she was going on atopica and temarilp and they wanted her liver tested prior to doing any meds since she was a yorkie. They did post bat only first time and it was 73, then they wanted to repeat and do pre and post -pre 3 and post 54 then they wanted scintigraphy done and as soon as they said radioactive dye i said WHOA HOLD ON. I went home stayed up 24 hrs like studying for a college exam and read EVERYTHING on liver disease in dogs and joined two liver groups on yahoo and read every day for months. I nixed the scintigraphy as bats were below 100 and my dog had no symptoms other than skin issues which when the liver is not processing things properly skin can be affected as the toxins excrete through skin if not release through body so it can be a side effect. I put her on low protein diet of 18% protein and had her bats re ran by jean dodds 6 months later and she was pre 3 and post 26 normal being 25 and below so the diet alone was a huge difference. Also at time it was 26 she was on atopica and temarilp for her allergies so the low protein diet alone made a huge difference. I do not do any supplements for her liver as her allergies are the biggest concern I have therefore anything she gets in her mouth I am very cautious of as it can cause a reaction to her. When Jean comes out with her liver cleansing diet dog food which she is working on I will then transition dd on to that.

How is miss daisy today?

[kjc]

Just to review:

It is my understanding that Daisy was on Doxy for Lymes Dx, and her liver issue was not discovered until bloodwork was run to determine a cause for her vomiting, and abdominal tenderness, and then an xray showed a small sized liver. I keep seeing that Doxy should't be prescribed to Liver compomised dogs, but the only way to know if Daisy had a liver problem would have been to run bloodwork prior to prescribing it, and if she was asymptomatic, there would be no reason to run it? Or if run prior.. all values were within normal limits?