liver issues - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

Ringo1 · 06-05-2010, 07:21 PM

Is Lily ok???

lilygirl24 · 06-05-2010, 07:49 PM

No she passed last night

107barney · 06-05-2010, 08:13 PM

While it is true that *most* dogs with MVD never have normal BA numbers, I would like to happily report that some do!

My dog Daisy started out 4 years ago with her ALT around 380 and her postprandial bile acids at 106. After Hill's L/D diet her ALT went down to 179 and her bile acids went down to 33. After switching to a vet nutritionist formulated home cooked diet, her ALT is 33 and her postprandial bile acids are 13.

My dog Daisy was VERY sick for six years before anyone figured out she had something other than "food allergies." She is truly our little miracle dog. So, it can happen and I hope it does for your dog too.

Ringo1 · 06-06-2010, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilygirl24

No she passed last night

I'm so, so sorry about your little Lily. She had the surgery; you did what you could. Poor baby.

manolos mom · 06-06-2010, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilygirl24

No she passed last night

I'm so sorry about your Lily.

Ringo1 · 06-06-2010, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin Lodal

You can get Detri-DMG chews from entirelypets.com that have milk thistle, SamE, along with a few other supplements that are good for liver compromised babies. My Ginger loves it and takes it as a treat every day. She eats Royal Canin LS 14 (dry) and will occassionally get the canned LD as a treat.

I ended up ordering the Denestal tablets . . because the Detri-DMG Chews showed 1 chew treat per 30 lbs. Do you divide yours or did I just find the wrong ones?

Becca1 · 06-07-2010, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilygirl24

I wish I had joined sooner and found out about the chew and supplements. My baby Lily was recovering from a liver shunt surgery and quite well. Shes a strong little girl but last night her liver failed. I'm not sure why and the vet is trying to get to the bottom of it. I'm crushed and heartbroken. I wish you all the best with your baby. All I can suggest is don't be afraid to get a second opinion. I would never have done the surgery if i had know there was something wrong with her liver too and I think that was the case. I think the doctors missed it because they didn't do a liver biopsy first. I will pray for your little one.

Oh my gosh; I am soooo sorry. The next step my vet said was to do a biopsy on her liver if her next bloodwork numbers are still high. You are in our thoughts.

christiers · 06-07-2010, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilygirl24

No she passed last night

Words cannot express my deepest sympathy that I feel for you.

lilygirl24 · 06-08-2010, 07:17 PM

They were afraid to do a liver biopsy because her liver was small and her gallbladder was enlarged and they were afraid to puncture it. So they did the surgery on the shunt and that went well but I think there were more problems in the liver that they didn;t detect becasue they didn;t do the biopsy. The doctors asked if they coudl do the biopsy not that she has passed to find out what really went wrong. I said yes because I need to knwo for my peace of mind but I wish I had gotten a second opinion. The emergency hospital was very surprised they did the sugery without the biopsy. I don;t knwo who is right I just miss her and woudl give anything to get her back!

lilygirl24 · 06-08-2010, 07:18 PM

Thank you

Becca1 · 06-09-2010, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilygirl24

They were afraid to do a liver biopsy because her liver was small and her gallbladder was enlarged and they were afraid to puncture it. So they did the surgery on the shunt and that went well but I think there were more problems in the liver that they didn;t detect becasue they didn;t do the biopsy. The doctors asked if they coudl do the biopsy not that she has passed to find out what really went wrong. I said yes because I need to knwo for my peace of mind but I wish I had gotten a second opinion. The emergency hospital was very surprised they did the sugery without the biopsy. I don;t knwo who is right I just miss her and woudl give anything to get her back!

Do you know yet what they found from the biopsy they took after she passed? I know what you're going through - last year we lost our 13 yr old Yorkie from liver cancer and our 14 year old Sheltie from spleen cancer within 4 mo's of each other - it was a hard time - it just takes a lot of time and a lot of crying to heal.

dwerten · 06-09-2010, 09:21 AM

First off I am totally against liver biopsy for mvd because I think it is extremely invasive when the bats and urine will tell you what is going on with liver. The incision is large and really not necessary in my opinion. You will not treat the dog any differently with a biopsy so why put the dog through this incision and pain. Dogs with liver disease need low protein (hightly digestible protein) diets and if bad enough supplements for the liver like milk thistle and sam-e and in some cases lactulose. If there was something the biopsy would do to offer a different treatment plan then I would consider it but it does not that I am aware of. Is anyone aware of a different treatment plan for biopsy vs no biopsy for a liver compromised dog? If not why put the dog through this?

I do not believe in doing testing that is invasive unless the outcome of treatment is different than not running the test and following blood work.

For ex. A Good internal medicine specialist will not treat and IBD dog with steroids unless an endoscopy has been performed because if it is not ibd and something like a fungal infection then you are going to make the dog more ill by suppressing the immune system thus allowing the fungal infection to over take the body possibly killing the dog. This is why our ims would not prescribe steroids for dex ibd without an endoscopy performed but luckily our last resort of food worked and he has been fine for years now and he did not need an endoscopy or steroids. Also ibd dogs are prone to pancreatitis and steroids can cause pancreatitis thus the treatment has to be right for that dog and all testing should be done before just throwing drugs at a situation. So above is a reason to do a more invasive procedure because you are dealing with a treatment plan of drugs and you need to know exactly what you are dealing with or you can make a situation worse if doing the run treatment. This is not the case with a liver biopsy. You will treat the dog the same way it is just for an owners peace of mind of knowing it is MVD which you have enough evidence in blood work and urine. If it is another liver disease then I do believe that is more rare in this breed but I believe the treatment plan will still be the same for those dogs. The liver is very forgiving and it can regenerate itself so why it is not a death sentence if mvd.

The reason Kalina82 dog was vomiting was because evo is extremely high in fat so could be protein but I would blame it more on fat content as dogs on my malt group have shown up with fatty deposits in their eyes from evo diets. I would never feed that to a yorkie breed as they are known for pancreatitis so low fat foods are best. Also I disagree with feeding regular high protein diets as well as dogs with mvd and no symptoms should be on 22% protein and dogs with symptoms should not go over 18% protein.

The protein should be a highly digestible protein as well like cod as I do not like tilapia as too contaminated of fish, egg whites, soy. My dog is on soy and her bats went from 73, 54, then on soy diet down to 26. I would not feed chicken to an mvd dog. I would not feed peanut butter as a treat as that is high in fat. When treating you do not want to do protein treats as that will add protein to diet and every little bit adds up.

Also no need to keep doing bats over and over because if they have it they have it so a waste of money in my opinion. I did 3 - first was just post, second bc vet did not do pre and post we did that then last was done after 6 mos on low protein diet so will not ever do again as ALT is fine and we manage with low protein diet and we know it is there to address with meds, etc. She did great under anesthesia as well for spay and dental on iso.

dwerten · 06-09-2010, 09:22 AM

Also in regards to fish oil that manolos mom is giving. You never give fish oil that is not combined with vitamin E as fish oil depletes the body of vitamin E so this could cause problems and why people should not supplement without discussing with a animal nutritionist as you can be doing more harm than good for the dog. Nordic naturals omega 3 is the most pure for dogs and has vitamin E in it and why I recommend it. It is distilled so no mercury. Cheap fish oil caps can have mercury thus a toxin in a liver dog and not good. I am 50/50 on supplementing with fatty acids as this breed is known to have pancreatitis issues and fatty acids while rare can trigger pancreatitis as I have seen it happen where someone added grizzly salmon oil to diet and dog ended up with pancreatitis. I personally would never want to go through pancreatitis again having gone through it as it is deadly and very expensive to treat.

Also prefer isoflurine to sevoflurine after doing alot of research on this prior to my mvd dog having dental. The board certified dentist we go to uses isoflurine and I was happy about that. One vet we went to uses sevo and raved about it but after learning about it I do not care for it. Sevo is what we use in humans and our bodies are much bigger than toy dogs and sevo brings your body out much faster than iso which I do not think is good for a toy dog and prefer coming out slower from anesthesia as not as hard on their bodies. Also hypothermia is an issue with sevo more so than iso so someone has to be watching dog at all times after procedure. Sevo has no smell which is great where as iso does have a smell. I just much prefer iso and this info was also confirmed by several vets as well as board certified dentist we deal with.

Also bats are not the only thing that should be checked but also urine and I do not want to get into another HUGE DEBATE but I prefer free catch to cysto so the urinalysis can be run to see if crystals in the urine as dogs with liver issues can get stones so this is another reason why protein content is critical in liver dogs and why I think it should be 22% with no symptoms. Cysto is where they put a needle in the bladder and I do not prefer invasive procedures that I feel are unnecessary just like I do not agree with liver biopsy for mvd dogs as too invasive. If there are crystals in the urine it will show up on a free catch or a catch off the back of a wee wee pad.

My dog has mvd and the only way I knew it is she had to have bats prior to taking a medication for allergies. They had me all freaked out when her post bat came in at 73 and wanted me to run down for scintigraphy and after going through a bunch of stuff with my pancreatitis dog and spending thousands I learned a few things one being about yahoo groups so I told vet I am holding off and will get back to you as my dog shows no symptoms of this so I joined yahoo groups on liver disease and learned it was not necessary to stick radioactive dye in my dog as she has no symptoms and her bats were below 100. We ran another pre and post with vet then 6 mos on Purina ha (a soy diet) I had dr jean dodds who designed the liver cleansing diet do dd bats and she was at 26 on 18% protein diet. I do not supplement her as she has allergies and hypothyroid so she has more pressing issues and supplements can make her allergies worse and that is my biggest issue with her not so much her liver since having her on a low protein diet.

dwerten · 06-09-2010, 09:22 AM

She is also on low dose of prednisolone every other day and her blood work is perfect and ALT was never high and still is not as we get blood work every 6 mos on her due to medications.

Here are the two yahoo groups – they use to be one but split off since I was active on them so I recommend both as you can see two points of view by being on both

DogLiverDisease : Dog Liver Disease

Liver_Shunt_And_MVD_Support : Liver Shunt & MVD/HMD Support

The two experts on this subject are

Dr Centers an internal medicine specialist and Dr Tobias a surgeon who repairs liver shunts.

Before I knew about all this dee dee ate nature’s variety raw diet and she had no issues. I know some nutritionists do not have a problem with raw diets in liver dogs as they have natural enzymes which break down the protein in the body and they are low in protein if you read the content. Here is venison which is 13% protein

Nature's Variety: Venison Formula: Raw Frozen Diet for Dogs and Cats | Nature's Variety

The problem with raw is you run the risk of getting a bad batch as my friends dogs almost died of a bad batch of stevies so it scared me and I stopped feeding raw. Also immune compromised dogs on immune compromised drugs like atopica or steroids makes me nervous as you are dealing with the risk of bacteria issues but ann on here has a dog on atopica and feeds raw and many people with dogs with cancer feed raw so it is your call.

Also a more natural way to cleanse liver and urinary tract is juicing zucchini and celery together and then putting the pulp on food and juice. Zucchini cleanses the liver and celery cleanses the urinary tract. Always use organic food when feeding toy dogs as less pesticides, etc.

Keep in mind high protein diets can cause more probs than liver issues it can also cause kidney issues as well as stones. High protein diets are suppose to be for very active breeds and this is not an active breed thus 22% should be sufficient and more safe for this breed since 38% of the breed are likely to have liver issues.

Also mvd dogs and liver disease dogs should NOT get NSAIDS. Tramadol is the preferred pain management for liver dogs BUT it should not be mixed if you give your dog sam-e.

You will notice on here you will get different points of view so you will have to take info and make the best decision for your dog with your vet or specialist. I am expressing my point of view only in what I have read and learned for the past 5 years.

dwerten · 06-09-2010, 09:37 AM

here is thread it was meant for but it can be used for both - a little rusty since my YT vacation

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...ml#post3157502

06-05-2010, 08:13 PM	#18
107barney T. Bumpkins & Co. Donating YT Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: New England Posts: 9,816	While it is true that most dogs with MVD never have normal BA numbers, I would like to happily report that some do! My dog Daisy started out 4 years ago with her ALT around 380 and her postprandial bile acids at 106. After Hill's L/D diet her ALT went down to 179 and her bile acids went down to 33. After switching to a vet nutritionist formulated home cooked diet, her ALT is 33 and her postprandial bile acids are 13. My dog Daisy was VERY sick for six years before anyone figured out she had something other than "food allergies." She is truly our little miracle dog. So, it can happen and I hope it does for your dog too. __________________ T. Bumpkins & Co. Washable Doggie Pee Pads (Save 10% Enter YTSAVE10 at checkout) Cathy, Teddy, Winston and Baby Clyde...RIP angels Barney and Daisy

06-09-2010, 09:21 AM	#27
dwerten BANNED! Join Date: May 2007 Location: USA Posts: 11,073	First off I am totally against liver biopsy for mvd because I think it is extremely invasive when the bats and urine will tell you what is going on with liver. The incision is large and really not necessary in my opinion. You will not treat the dog any differently with a biopsy so why put the dog through this incision and pain. Dogs with liver disease need low protein (hightly digestible protein) diets and if bad enough supplements for the liver like milk thistle and sam-e and in some cases lactulose. If there was something the biopsy would do to offer a different treatment plan then I would consider it but it does not that I am aware of. Is anyone aware of a different treatment plan for biopsy vs no biopsy for a liver compromised dog? If not why put the dog through this? I do not believe in doing testing that is invasive unless the outcome of treatment is different than not running the test and following blood work. For ex. A Good internal medicine specialist will not treat and IBD dog with steroids unless an endoscopy has been performed because if it is not ibd and something like a fungal infection then you are going to make the dog more ill by suppressing the immune system thus allowing the fungal infection to over take the body possibly killing the dog. This is why our ims would not prescribe steroids for dex ibd without an endoscopy performed but luckily our last resort of food worked and he has been fine for years now and he did not need an endoscopy or steroids. Also ibd dogs are prone to pancreatitis and steroids can cause pancreatitis thus the treatment has to be right for that dog and all testing should be done before just throwing drugs at a situation. So above is a reason to do a more invasive procedure because you are dealing with a treatment plan of drugs and you need to know exactly what you are dealing with or you can make a situation worse if doing the run treatment. This is not the case with a liver biopsy. You will treat the dog the same way it is just for an owners peace of mind of knowing it is MVD which you have enough evidence in blood work and urine. If it is another liver disease then I do believe that is more rare in this breed but I believe the treatment plan will still be the same for those dogs. The liver is very forgiving and it can regenerate itself so why it is not a death sentence if mvd. The reason Kalina82 dog was vomiting was because evo is extremely high in fat so could be protein but I would blame it more on fat content as dogs on my malt group have shown up with fatty deposits in their eyes from evo diets. I would never feed that to a yorkie breed as they are known for pancreatitis so low fat foods are best. Also I disagree with feeding regular high protein diets as well as dogs with mvd and no symptoms should be on 22% protein and dogs with symptoms should not go over 18% protein. The protein should be a highly digestible protein as well like cod as I do not like tilapia as too contaminated of fish, egg whites, soy. My dog is on soy and her bats went from 73, 54, then on soy diet down to 26. I would not feed chicken to an mvd dog. I would not feed peanut butter as a treat as that is high in fat. When treating you do not want to do protein treats as that will add protein to diet and every little bit adds up. Also no need to keep doing bats over and over because if they have it they have it so a waste of money in my opinion. I did 3 - first was just post, second bc vet did not do pre and post we did that then last was done after 6 mos on low protein diet so will not ever do again as ALT is fine and we manage with low protein diet and we know it is there to address with meds, etc. She did great under anesthesia as well for spay and dental on iso. Last edited by dwerten; 06-09-2010 at 09:24 AM.

06-05-2010, 07:21 PM	#16
Ringo1 Ringo (1) and Lucy too! Donating Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: On the Edge of Glory Posts: 3,447	Is Lily ok???

06-05-2010, 07:49 PM	#17
lilygirl24 Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Cortlandt Manor, New York, USA Posts: 12	No she passed last night

06-08-2010, 07:17 PM	#24
lilygirl24 Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Cortlandt Manor, New York, USA Posts: 12	They were afraid to do a liver biopsy because her liver was small and her gallbladder was enlarged and they were afraid to puncture it. So they did the surgery on the shunt and that went well but I think there were more problems in the liver that they didn;t detect becasue they didn;t do the biopsy. The doctors asked if they coudl do the biopsy not that she has passed to find out what really went wrong. I said yes because I need to knwo for my peace of mind but I wish I had gotten a second opinion. The emergency hospital was very surprised they did the sugery without the biopsy. I don;t knwo who is right I just miss her and woudl give anything to get her back!

06-08-2010, 07:18 PM	#25
lilygirl24 Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Cortlandt Manor, New York, USA Posts: 12	Thank you

06-09-2010, 09:22 AM	#28
dwerten BANNED! Join Date: May 2007 Location: USA Posts: 11,073	Also in regards to fish oil that manolos mom is giving. You never give fish oil that is not combined with vitamin E as fish oil depletes the body of vitamin E so this could cause problems and why people should not supplement without discussing with a animal nutritionist as you can be doing more harm than good for the dog. Nordic naturals omega 3 is the most pure for dogs and has vitamin E in it and why I recommend it. It is distilled so no mercury. Cheap fish oil caps can have mercury thus a toxin in a liver dog and not good. I am 50/50 on supplementing with fatty acids as this breed is known to have pancreatitis issues and fatty acids while rare can trigger pancreatitis as I have seen it happen where someone added grizzly salmon oil to diet and dog ended up with pancreatitis. I personally would never want to go through pancreatitis again having gone through it as it is deadly and very expensive to treat. Also prefer isoflurine to sevoflurine after doing alot of research on this prior to my mvd dog having dental. The board certified dentist we go to uses isoflurine and I was happy about that. One vet we went to uses sevo and raved about it but after learning about it I do not care for it. Sevo is what we use in humans and our bodies are much bigger than toy dogs and sevo brings your body out much faster than iso which I do not think is good for a toy dog and prefer coming out slower from anesthesia as not as hard on their bodies. Also hypothermia is an issue with sevo more so than iso so someone has to be watching dog at all times after procedure. Sevo has no smell which is great where as iso does have a smell. I just much prefer iso and this info was also confirmed by several vets as well as board certified dentist we deal with. Also bats are not the only thing that should be checked but also urine and I do not want to get into another HUGE DEBATE but I prefer free catch to cysto so the urinalysis can be run to see if crystals in the urine as dogs with liver issues can get stones so this is another reason why protein content is critical in liver dogs and why I think it should be 22% with no symptoms. Cysto is where they put a needle in the bladder and I do not prefer invasive procedures that I feel are unnecessary just like I do not agree with liver biopsy for mvd dogs as too invasive. If there are crystals in the urine it will show up on a free catch or a catch off the back of a wee wee pad. My dog has mvd and the only way I knew it is she had to have bats prior to taking a medication for allergies. They had me all freaked out when her post bat came in at 73 and wanted me to run down for scintigraphy and after going through a bunch of stuff with my pancreatitis dog and spending thousands I learned a few things one being about yahoo groups so I told vet I am holding off and will get back to you as my dog shows no symptoms of this so I joined yahoo groups on liver disease and learned it was not necessary to stick radioactive dye in my dog as she has no symptoms and her bats were below 100. We ran another pre and post with vet then 6 mos on Purina ha (a soy diet) I had dr jean dodds who designed the liver cleansing diet do dd bats and she was at 26 on 18% protein diet. I do not supplement her as she has allergies and hypothyroid so she has more pressing issues and supplements can make her allergies worse and that is my biggest issue with her not so much her liver since having her on a low protein diet.

06-09-2010, 09:37 AM	#30
dwerten BANNED! Join Date: May 2007 Location: USA Posts: 11,073	here is thread it was meant for but it can be used for both - a little rusty since my YT vacation http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...ml#post3157502