Say a prayer for my little man - Page 4 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

newyorkiepup · 08-06-2008, 02:35 PM

We are deciding whether to have the surgery but we are not going to go to Tennessee. I don't even know if we're going to do the surgery at all. This is the hardest decision I have ever had to make. I don't know what to think anymore....

Yorkieluv · 08-06-2008, 02:49 PM

What are they basing the diagnosis of liver shunt on? Did they do an ultrasound, scintigraphy, etc? What were the results of the bile acid test?
If there is no definitive diagnosis for extrahepatic shunt and your baby has MVD or intrahepatic shunts, opening him up may be unnecessary as neither of those are operable.

MyPeanutAbbyGra · 08-06-2008, 02:55 PM

Oh honey, I'm praying for you and Cruiser and asking for a miracle. Please, if you decide not to do the surgery, surrender him to a rescue who will have him treated. That way he will have a fighting chance and you won't have to watch your baby suffer.

If you decide to do the surgery, I wish you, your husband and Cruiser all the best.

Tammy

newyorkiepup · 08-06-2008, 03:04 PM

I appreciate everyone's concern but I don't think I'm going to post anymore. I'm upset enough as it is without other people upsetting me. I am not a vet. I have no training in medicine whatsoever. I have to rely on people who are trained to give me their professional opinion. Having me question my doctors is not going to help me. I know you are just trying to help but it's upsetting me too much.

PANAMA69 · 08-06-2008, 03:35 PM

Praying for your baby

to

Cookie2 · 08-06-2008, 04:04 PM

First let me say I'm so sorry you are going through all this

I read your post and didn't read everyone's replies but I had to mention:
Why would the vet prescribe A/D canned food for your puppy if he is showing possible signs of Liver Shunt? I have given A/D to my healthy dog when he was tired of eating the same food. I have a yorkie with mild MVD which is a type of shunt that can be treated with diet and meds. He's doing great. A/D is very high in fat/protein and it's the last thing your puppy needs if he is showing these symptoms.
When I first got Cookie ,he was very picky and tiny.He didnt gain weight well.I did not know anything about Liver Shunt at the time. I tried giving him so many types of dogfood and he did not want any of them. The breeder then said to give him chicken and rice.That worked for about 4days.Then Igave just chicken alone and he refused that as well.My vet at the time never mentioned Liver shunt. I even gave him A/D and he gobbled it up of course but was much more lethargic after the 2nd day

Thank God I changed vets when he was a yr old and we found out it was MVD and started him on a Science Diet (very low protein) Actually he can have up to 20% protein and be symptom free. Of course this is a Mild case.By then it was too late for the Puppy Lemon law . I'm sure you are already in love with him and returning him may be something you will not consider.
There are tons of sites including this one that share lots of info on Liver Shunts. It can be scary once you read of all the possibilities . But if you are well informed you know your options. Talk to your vet again and see if he agrees that your furbaby may need a Bile Acid test to begin with. There several types of shunts ,some can be operated ,some cant and some can be treated simply with a diet change.

How much does your little guy weigh? Mine was about 1. 5 lbs when I got him and he went down to 1 lb. Now he's 4 yrs old and weighs 3 lbs even
Good Luck and keep us posted on your baby.

Genie
Cookie,Lola, Angel & Lucky

Cookie2 · 08-07-2008, 03:03 PM

I'm sorry your little guy is going through this. I know our family and even myself have said that if anything ever happens to one of our dogs and the price was in the thousands that we would probably not be able to do anything. Well I've been in that position a few times. Every single time we find a way because its either life or death.It's a big financial sacrifice but we were up against a wall with no option except to save their life. Most pet owners feel the same way.
All this information is very overwhelming and everything is happening so fast. The only reason some people are questioning how the vet can diagnose it as a shunt for sure is because You can only determine if there is a problem in the liver with the Bile Acid test. It will not tell you which type of shunt it is.
Get a copy faxed to you if possible. It will show pre-meal number and post meal number. Usually if the number is 100 or so it could possibly be a MVD which are the microscopic shunts that can be treated through diet if its a mild MVD or Diet and meds if its a more serious MVD. Both types can be managed and no surgery is recommended.

When you see extremely high pre-meal and post meal numbers like 300+
plus symptoms then a Liver Shunt is suspected.But not a confirmation.
I could not go out of state to get the surgery done but I had to drive about2 hrs to a Hospital specializing in Small Breed surgeries.It was $1,300. I know you wont give up so just keep calling all the hospitals and ask about the surgery.
Please don't run out of here because people are truly trying to help you. I sent you a PM. If I've said anything to make you feel bad, I did not intend it to make it seem that way. I got a lot of support when I could not get sleep and just worrying every single hour. I spent so many hours online just reading anything I could find on Liver shunt and symptoms and diagnosing it.

Your little guy has lots of people praying for him.Hope you find a place that can do it cheaper.Please keep us posted.

((hugs & Prayers))

Genie,Cookie,Lola,Angel & Lucky

newyorkiepup · 08-09-2008, 12:23 PM

We met with a surgeon yesterday. We have decided not to do the surgery. It isn't as cut and dry as we had hoped. They don't know what kind of shunt it is, sometimes they come back even after surgery, and complications can arise that would result in a seizure that he can't come out of. It's too risky as far as we're concerned and we can't put him through that. Cruiser will be going back to his breeder on Monday to live out the rest of his short life on the farm with all the other puppies. He should have fun there and she's able to do more medical care at home than we are. I have not stopped crying in 24 hours. I am not looking for any judgments or even any advice. Please don't tell me to get more tests or anything like that. We've made the decision. It is the hardest decision of my life. I feel like a horrible person giving my puppy back. He is MY puppy. I love him more than anything. My heart is breaking right now. I'm just going to hug him a lot and try to cherish every moment that he's still here with us. I just wanted to let everyone know that might be interested after having read this thread. No one will ever know what this is doing to me. I hope he remembers me and knows that I'll be his mommy forever.

Nancy1999 · 08-09-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newyorkiepup

We met with a surgeon yesterday. We have decided not to do the surgery. It isn't as cut and dry as we had hoped. They don't know what kind of shunt it is, sometimes they come back even after surgery, and complications can arise that would result in a seizure that he can't come out of. It's too risky as far as we're concerned and we can't put him through that. Cruiser will be going back to his breeder on Monday to live out the rest of his short life on the farm with all the other puppies. He should have fun there and she's able to do more medical care at home than we are. I have not stopped crying in 24 hours. I am not looking for any judgments or even any advice. Please don't tell me to get more tests or anything like that. We've made the decision. It is the hardest decision of my life. I feel like a horrible person giving my puppy back. He is MY puppy. I love him more than anything. My heart is breaking right now. I'm just going to hug him a lot and try to cherish every moment that he's still here with us. I just wanted to let everyone know that might be interested after having read this thread. No one will ever know what this is doing to me. I hope he remembers me and knows that I'll be his mommy forever.

Your reply made me cry, I hope no one makes any bad judgments about you, you did what is best for your family, and that's all anyone can ask. Sometimes breeders work with rescues, and can get these puppies the help they need. Not everyone can afford to pay for these surgeries, and I fully understand that. Years back we lost a dog due to a genetic illness, and doctors can do so much more nowadays, but the cost can be more than most of us can realistically work into our budgets. Since then, I have become an advocate for good breeding, and I hope you do the same. There are many good breeders out there, who do health screening, and you are much less likely to get a pup with a genetic illness. I hope if you consider getting another puppy, you will look into breeders who are members of the YTCA. Many people say they don't want a show dog if they aren't going to breed or show, but these dogs make excellent pets as well, and show breeders are much more likely to do health screening because they are after all, creating a "line." There prices are much more affordable than most people realize, and can be purchased often for well under $2000.00, since show breeders aren't in it as a "business", but are truly trying to better the breed. This money is well spent considering the cost of surgeries. My prayers are with you.

newyorkiepup · 08-09-2008, 02:10 PM

We do intend to get another puppy. I don't blame our breeder. I think she is very responsible. She can't believe this either. We'll get one when we feel like the time is right. I can't do it right away. I need some time to get past this first. Maybe this fall... I will definitely have the puppy bile acid tested before he comes home. I can't go through this again.

AprilLove · 08-09-2008, 03:11 PM

I am so sorry for what you've had to go through. I know you are going to miss your little boy, I am sure the breeder will do what is right for him and get him the health care he needs. I hope the breeder doesn't breed that pair again.

Myhre5 · 08-09-2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newyorkiepup

We do intend to get another puppy. I don't blame our breeder. I think she is very responsible. She can't believe this either. We'll get one when we feel like the time is right. I can't do it right away. I need some time to get past this first. Maybe this fall... I will definitely have the puppy bile acid tested before he comes home. I can't go through this again.

I have told you this before, we are going through the same thing with our new puppy. I admire you and respect what you did, as I am considering the same thing. My heart aches for you and your puppy.
Take care
Oliver and Coopers mom-Pam

Cookie2 · 08-09-2008, 10:17 PM

I'm so sorry for your heartache , I know this is the hardest thing for you.
I dont see how anyone would dare judge you for doing this. You are doing what is best for everyone involved.I know another puppy will not replace him ever.You'll know when the time is right to add another furbaby to your family.

((hugs))

Genie,Cookie,Lola ,Angel & Lucky

tiger63 · 08-09-2008, 11:07 PM

There is a clinic in Mandeville, LA which saved my boy "Harry" after our great LSU vet system nearly killed him.

They are reasonable and I can assure you as clean and well managed as a human hospital.

Avoid the vet systems associated with college at all costs.

ladyj · 08-10-2008, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newyorkiepup

We met with a surgeon yesterday. We have decided not to do the surgery. It isn't as cut and dry as we had hoped. They don't know what kind of shunt it is, sometimes they come back even after surgery, and complications can arise that would result in a seizure that he can't come out of. It's too risky as far as we're concerned and we can't put him through that. Cruiser will be going back to his breeder on Monday to live out the rest of his short life on the farm with all the other puppies. He should have fun there and she's able to do more medical care at home than we are. I have not stopped crying in 24 hours. I am not looking for any judgments or even any advice. Please don't tell me to get more tests or anything like that. We've made the decision. It is the hardest decision of my life. I feel like a horrible person giving my puppy back. He is MY puppy. I love him more than anything. My heart is breaking right now. I'm just going to hug him a lot and try to cherish every moment that he's still here with us. I just wanted to let everyone know that might be interested after having read this thread. No one will ever know what this is doing to me. I hope he remembers me and knows that I'll be his mommy forever.

I can feel your pain and know you made the best decision you could. We all have to do what we think is best for us and our own situations. I've had to do hard things and made hard decisions, too, and my heart aches for you. God bless you and your little guy.

08-06-2008, 02:49 PM	#47
Yorkieluv Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: USA Posts: 7,178	What are they basing the diagnosis of liver shunt on? Did they do an ultrasound, scintigraphy, etc? What were the results of the bile acid test? If there is no definitive diagnosis for extrahepatic shunt and your baby has MVD or intrahepatic shunts, opening him up may be unnecessary as neither of those are operable. __________________ Miko 's his Mommy

08-06-2008, 02:55 PM	#48
MyPeanutAbbyGra I love my baby girls! Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,718	Oh honey, I'm praying for you and Cruiser and asking for a miracle. Please, if you decide not to do the surgery, surrender him to a rescue who will have him treated. That way he will have a fighting chance and you won't have to watch your baby suffer. If you decide to do the surgery, I wish you, your husband and Cruiser all the best. Tammy __________________ Tammy, Mama to Abby Grace Daisy Mae RIP Peanut & Chloe, ABBY 's WINSTON Within the heart of every stray Lies the singular desire to be loved

08-09-2008, 03:11 PM	#56
AprilLove My Three Hearts Donating Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Wrapped around their paws :-) Posts: 7,190	I am so sorry for what you've had to go through. I know you are going to miss your little boy, I am sure the breeder will do what is right for him and get him the health care he needs. I hope the breeder doesn't breed that pair again. __________________ MaryKay AprilLove Wubs Moosie R.I.P. Bailey & BitsyRoo

08-06-2008, 02:35 PM	#46
newyorkiepup Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2008 Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA Posts: 77	We are deciding whether to have the surgery but we are not going to go to Tennessee. I don't even know if we're going to do the surgery at all. This is the hardest decision I have ever had to make. I don't know what to think anymore....

08-06-2008, 03:04 PM	#49
newyorkiepup Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2008 Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA Posts: 77	I appreciate everyone's concern but I don't think I'm going to post anymore. I'm upset enough as it is without other people upsetting me. I am not a vet. I have no training in medicine whatsoever. I have to rely on people who are trained to give me their professional opinion. Having me question my doctors is not going to help me. I know you are just trying to help but it's upsetting me too much.

08-06-2008, 03:35 PM	#50
PANAMA69 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: ~~YorkieWorld~~ Posts: 8,428	Praying for your baby to

08-06-2008, 04:04 PM	#51
Cookie2 Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 1,568	First let me say I'm so sorry you are going through all this I read your post and didn't read everyone's replies but I had to mention: Why would the vet prescribe A/D canned food for your puppy if he is showing possible signs of Liver Shunt? I have given A/D to my healthy dog when he was tired of eating the same food. I have a yorkie with mild MVD which is a type of shunt that can be treated with diet and meds. He's doing great. A/D is very high in fat/protein and it's the last thing your puppy needs if he is showing these symptoms. When I first got Cookie ,he was very picky and tiny.He didnt gain weight well.I did not know anything about Liver Shunt at the time. I tried giving him so many types of dogfood and he did not want any of them. The breeder then said to give him chicken and rice.That worked for about 4days.Then Igave just chicken alone and he refused that as well.My vet at the time never mentioned Liver shunt. I even gave him A/D and he gobbled it up of course but was much more lethargic after the 2nd day Thank God I changed vets when he was a yr old and we found out it was MVD and started him on a Science Diet (very low protein) Actually he can have up to 20% protein and be symptom free. Of course this is a Mild case.By then it was too late for the Puppy Lemon law . I'm sure you are already in love with him and returning him may be something you will not consider. There are tons of sites including this one that share lots of info on Liver Shunts. It can be scary once you read of all the possibilities . But if you are well informed you know your options. Talk to your vet again and see if he agrees that your furbaby may need a Bile Acid test to begin with. There several types of shunts ,some can be operated ,some cant and some can be treated simply with a diet change. How much does your little guy weigh? Mine was about 1. 5 lbs when I got him and he went down to 1 lb. Now he's 4 yrs old and weighs 3 lbs even Good Luck and keep us posted on your baby. Genie Cookie,Lola, Angel & Lucky

08-07-2008, 03:03 PM	#52
Cookie2 Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 1,568	I'm sorry your little guy is going through this. I know our family and even myself have said that if anything ever happens to one of our dogs and the price was in the thousands that we would probably not be able to do anything. Well I've been in that position a few times. Every single time we find a way because its either life or death.It's a big financial sacrifice but we were up against a wall with no option except to save their life. Most pet owners feel the same way. All this information is very overwhelming and everything is happening so fast. The only reason some people are questioning how the vet can diagnose it as a shunt for sure is because You can only determine if there is a problem in the liver with the Bile Acid test. It will not tell you which type of shunt it is. Get a copy faxed to you if possible. It will show pre-meal number and post meal number. Usually if the number is 100 or so it could possibly be a MVD which are the microscopic shunts that can be treated through diet if its a mild MVD or Diet and meds if its a more serious MVD. Both types can be managed and no surgery is recommended. When you see extremely high pre-meal and post meal numbers like 300+ plus symptoms then a Liver Shunt is suspected.But not a confirmation. I could not go out of state to get the surgery done but I had to drive about2 hrs to a Hospital specializing in Small Breed surgeries.It was $1,300. I know you wont give up so just keep calling all the hospitals and ask about the surgery. Please don't run out of here because people are truly trying to help you. I sent you a PM. If I've said anything to make you feel bad, I did not intend it to make it seem that way. I got a lot of support when I could not get sleep and just worrying every single hour. I spent so many hours online just reading anything I could find on Liver shunt and symptoms and diagnosing it. Your little guy has lots of people praying for him.Hope you find a place that can do it cheaper.Please keep us posted. ((hugs & Prayers)) Genie,Cookie,Lola,Angel & Lucky

08-09-2008, 12:23 PM	#53
newyorkiepup Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2008 Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA Posts: 77	We met with a surgeon yesterday. We have decided not to do the surgery. It isn't as cut and dry as we had hoped. They don't know what kind of shunt it is, sometimes they come back even after surgery, and complications can arise that would result in a seizure that he can't come out of. It's too risky as far as we're concerned and we can't put him through that. Cruiser will be going back to his breeder on Monday to live out the rest of his short life on the farm with all the other puppies. He should have fun there and she's able to do more medical care at home than we are. I have not stopped crying in 24 hours. I am not looking for any judgments or even any advice. Please don't tell me to get more tests or anything like that. We've made the decision. It is the hardest decision of my life. I feel like a horrible person giving my puppy back. He is MY puppy. I love him more than anything. My heart is breaking right now. I'm just going to hug him a lot and try to cherish every moment that he's still here with us. I just wanted to let everyone know that might be interested after having read this thread. No one will ever know what this is doing to me. I hope he remembers me and knows that I'll be his mommy forever.

08-09-2008, 02:10 PM	#55
newyorkiepup Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2008 Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA Posts: 77	We do intend to get another puppy. I don't blame our breeder. I think she is very responsible. She can't believe this either. We'll get one when we feel like the time is right. I can't do it right away. I need some time to get past this first. Maybe this fall... I will definitely have the puppy bile acid tested before he comes home. I can't go through this again.

08-09-2008, 10:17 PM	#58
Cookie2 Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 1,568	I'm so sorry for your heartache , I know this is the hardest thing for you. I dont see how anyone would dare judge you for doing this. You are doing what is best for everyone involved.I know another puppy will not replace him ever.You'll know when the time is right to add another furbaby to your family. ((hugs)) Genie,Cookie,Lola ,Angel & Lucky

08-09-2008, 11:07 PM	#59
tiger63 Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2008 Location: Walker, LA Posts: 20	There is a clinic in Mandeville, LA which saved my boy "Harry" after our great LSU vet system nearly killed him. They are reasonable and I can assure you as clean and well managed as a human hospital. Avoid the vet systems associated with college at all costs.