Zimmerman Affidavit of Probable Cause

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Okay, what about the rest of my post? Do you understand what I'm saying and why people are outraged?

On Page One of this thread I believe I've already stated what I thought about this case from what little we know but I still don't understand the outage over one of many deaths in this country where the killer is not arrested, often because of incomplete police work. And calling me prejudiced is unwarranted and unkind of you under the circumstances of my statements. Because I'm asking why we don't wait for the trial and all sides are given, I am prejudiced? Because I see no such outrage when others die under terrible circumstances, I am prejudiced? I am sorry you rush to judge even me. But such is the nature of this case it seems.

[yorkietalkjilly]

And in the story I'm talking about, the shooter has not yet been arrested and the dead man's family is calling for the police to make an arrest. But they have no one joining them of national import so far.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Cuts can be manufactured & so can reports of eye or earwitnesses and even ex-lawyers. And forensics can be sullied, inconclusive and affected by sloppy crime-scene or lab work. I hope a clear picture of what happened will come out if there is more to the story.

That's why I said about the head cut. I don't think I even mentioned it in any other post.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

It seems to me he was way overzealous and in the hunter mode, too, but I do want to hear everything there supposedly is before I judge him. I remember in past cases thinking someone was so guilty and later as things came out starting to change, realizing the defense will normally not release much info as the prosecution does beforehand so as to make maximum impact to the actual jury at the time of trial. There is that school of thought that it is best to reveal information that tries to explain the defendant's actions to the prospective jury pool & the public at large but most lawyers don't agree with that. So he does sound guilty now to me but I do want to wait and hear it all. At least we'll probably get to watch parts of the trial since it is in Florida. I just wonder if he can get a fair trial since the prospective jury members may be making up their minds now same as everybody else - from what we've all heard so far and are deciding from that and the circumstances we've all been told about & what seems logical based on that & the fact that he had a gun. After the Casey Anthony trial, I wonder whether all juries actually listen to all the evidence.

Maybe you didn't read this either?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

On Page One of this thread I believe I've already stated what I thought about this case from what little we know but I still don't understand the outage over one of many deaths in this country where the killer is not arrested, often because of incomplete police work. And calling me prejudiced is unwarranted and unkind of you under the circumstances of my statements. Because I'm asking why we don't wait for the trial and all sides are given, I am prejudiced? Because I see no such outrage when others die under terrible circumstances, I am prejudiced? I am sorry you rush to judge even me. But such is the nature of this case it seems.

Let's get the facts straight, I said "if you are comparing these two cases, you really sound very prejudiced." These cases are nothing alike. The only thing in common is a young black man, well Trayvon was only 17, so he not even a man, so the only thing the have in common is they are black males and yes that would make you sound predudiced. Maybe you aren't, maybe you don't understand the reason for the outrage, I'm not clear that you understand why people are angry at the injustice of this case. It's not just the fact a young man was killed, it's the fact that they let Zimmerman go, do you get that? You can disagree, if you want, I'm not sure you understand why people are outraged over this case.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I do even understand why you say, "How's that so much worse?" Am I saying one is worse? I'm saying that they have nothing in common. I find it interesting that you are ready to believe Zimmerman's lawyer and not Trayvon's girlfriend. All these points will be brought up at the trial, but this is about "probable cause", not if he's guilty or not. The question right now is "Is there enough information to arrest him for murder?" You want to answer "Yeah, but Zimmerman had a cut on his head, therefore, Trayvon attacked him, and it was self-defense.” All you have to ask yourself is do you think there is enough information to arrest the man. Many of us think there is enough evidence to arrest the man. I don’t think you should worry about who’s the most “hated man in America or the second”. Newscasters use terms like this to get ratings. Zimmerman will have his day in court. Really, if you are comparing these two cases, you really sound very prejudiced. Why should the second case get all that attention, the guy has been arrested, so why do you think people should get involved in the case, do you see some injustice being done? The Zimmerman case is getting national attention because the police let him go and Zimmerman admitted killing Trayvon. Has Tyrone admitted killing anyone? Have the police let him go? If Tyrone admits it and the police let him go, you can bet your yorkie that there will be riots in the streets and it will get national attention.

The bottom line is this is about probable cause, all the evidence doesn't have to be in, just enough to arrest the man.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Maybe you think I sound prejudiced because you attributed things to me I did not say or referenced a case I did not even compare to this one. To do that and then unfairly suggest sounding prejudiced is wrong of you. Even suggesting someone sounds prejudiced is pejorative and inflammatory based on what my stated thoughts are on Mr. Zimmerman's case. Am I to be pronounced sounding prejudiced because I compared two unarrested shooter cases when one victim is older than the other or because I am still suggesting waiting to judge Zimmerman until his side is fully fleshed out at trial or just because I might not fully agree with your position? I did not say the shooters should not be arrested - far from it. I even said if the one in this case is found guilty he should "rot in jail". Using a word like prejudiced to even possibly suggest such a thing based on what I've actually said and not what you said I said is terribly offensive to me. I don't want to offend you but to suggest someone sounds prejudiced unless they actually make mean or ugly racially-based statements is beneath you.

[DCombies]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

These cases are nothing alike. I don't even understand why you would post this? Yes, we know black people commit crimes, but has Tyrone Woodfork been released like Zimmerman was? I totally agree with you that people are posting these things to further their own agenda. This shouldn't even be about race, this is about people taking the law into their own hands, and shooting people they think look suspicious.

My point....ALL sorts of people do bad things to others. ALL sorts. I just don't see this as meriting the type of coverage it has received because there are so many heinous actions by awful people every day.

Zimmerman should not have been armed in the capacity that he was, so this was wrong. It was poorly handled after the fact. I totally see that. What causes me ire are all of the ones that jumped on this to make it into something that can further their cause. Their agenda. News companies edited the tapes they were playing on the NEWS to give it the spin they desired to present. This is irresponsible journalism.

People in high positions were making vocerifous statements that had no purpose other than to whip up and incite. Black Panthers put out a million dollar bounty on the head of Zimmerman. No charges there either. Irresponsible leadership.

This is all so wrong in so many ways. It is the condition of humans. No matter the race, no matter the circumstance..... to have watched it all evolve has caused me great sadness. And so.... my heart is with the parents on both sides. I sorrow for them.

[yorkietalkjilly]

My heart is so broken to be labeled as sounding prejudiced, maybe I need to tell you a bit about myself. For the last 3 years, all of my monthly charitable contributions - 100% - have gone to an organization that builds schools and digs water wells for babies in South Africa. When I worked for the medical group before I retired, in clearing our patients for total joint surgery, I found a few of our older black women, those in their 70's & 80's, were fearful of going for their mammograms and for their OB/GYN check-ups & PAP smears and no amount of talking to some of them would change their minds. I finally started offering to take them to their appointments and that usually did the trick. I would take off work and take those ladies to their OB/GYN PAP's and pelvic exams and go with most of them into the exam room when many were so frightened and then we'd go on for the mammogram screening, either that or another day. They just needed someone who understood their fear and to hold their hands to help them get past it. Many hadn't been for those exams in so long, they were scared they might have cancer & it just paralyzed them to break down and go alone. Having someone go with them gave them courage. I almost lost my job as office manager when I fought the doctors to hire our first black employee in 25 years. They feared it would hurt their largely carriage-trade business, I guess, though that was not the reason they gave verbally. The discussions got grim. I made a deal with them & hired her anyway as she had that passion in her eyes for caring for people and a loving heart. She was a gifted worker. As a collector of teddy bears and dolls, I love toys so I couldn't stand little children at Christmas in a neighborhood I knew about not having much at all so, even after I became disabled, I would load up the car with dolls and teddies and other toys for boys and drive on Christmas Eve day to a particular well-known "drug" neighborhood down near Baylor Hospital that most of us employees drove through to get to the highway to the suburbs and I would pass out toys to the little black children whose parents would permit them to take them. And all would allow it that would come to the door. To those whose parents weren't home, they still got toys. The older black ladies who lived alone in the tiny one or two-room homes in that neighborhood and who would open the door, I asked for permission to give a gift of money throughout the year as I could afford it. But each Christmas Eve was one of the best days of my year seeing the smiles from those little babies who had so little and were suffering so much in the lifestyles of their parents. I couldn't help them in any other way right then but as little as it was, I did what I personally could to brighten their Christmas. I know I could have done more, but as a single woman I did my best. Probably most of you here do far more cause, money & time-wise than I can. I would never ordinarily mention things like this, but when one is said to sound prejudiced on a public forum that anyone can read, and as some of you know my name & where I live, the somewhat public figure I work for part-time, besides being so personally painful, I feel I have to share what some might say are indications I am not at all as even obliquely suggested. Where I work now part-time, most of our patients are black professional athletes in Major League Baseball and I love those kids dearly. I felt on this forum I would not be indirectly questioned publicly as to possible racial bias since I didn't express hateful or ugly racial comments and only asked questions and made comparisons about why all black babies killed as teens or even old ladies aren't mourned and focused on with equal pain and wondering why we all don't want to wait to judge before the trial. And knowing how I've lived and the posts I made on this and all threads I've posted on, I cannot accept that I sound prejudiced against any person of color. My heart has always gone out to their causes, their deprivation and pain, their sweet hearts, kind ways, strong faith and I have never behaved in a prejudiced manner or had prejudiced thoughts toward even one of them in my whole life. I've put my love, time, prayers and money to work to help as I personally could. If I sounded prejudiced to anyone, including Nancy, I apologize and apologize further for not sharing more of myself along with my questions so you could know my heart and I would, had I thought for one moment it would turn out as it did. I really do love you all and love this forum where we can openly discuss issues and exchange ideas and questions on issues other than dogs occasionally.

[yorkietalkjilly]

At my job, we also have a good number of Hispanic and Latino MLB players and I advocate rather strongly for them and their causes & care equally for those kids too.

[Ringo1]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

What is someone tracks me home from the grocery store because I look prosperous but vulnerable on a cane and takes the law in their hands & kills me without any provocation whatsoever, though I'm unarmed, and I'm lying there on the ground just as certainly dead, is that not every bit as heinous? I think people killing unarmed people cannot be so categorized as so much worse as this case is - while other killings are read about, quietly even sadly acknowledged and life goes on in most cases. But in some, everyone gets so upset over that crime, bounties are exacted, basketball teams protest, other protests are held all over the country, politicians and civil rights leaders speak up & TV news & Google explode with repeated reports of 99% reporting only one side of the story. I don't think there would be anywhere near the outrage if I were stalked & murdered in the manner I mentioned above, even if the shooter were of a different race. I wonder why?

If the killer were one of your neighborhood 'watchmen' and had been following you because you looked suspicious . . and then the police just blew it off and said your killer was 'A OK' because ~ well, he's a neighborhood watchman and you DID look suspicious - yeah - I think that would garner some attention. Someone is going to have to pursue this on your behalf, though and make a loud noise IF the local police are just going to take your killer's word for it that you were walking suspiciously, whatever.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

What is someone tracks me home from the grocery store because I look prosperous but vulnerable on a cane and takes the law in their hands & kills me without any provocation whatsoever, though I'm unarmed, and I'm lying there on the ground just as certainly dead, is that not every bit as heinous? I think people killing unarmed people cannot be so categorized as so much worse as this case is - while other killings are read about, quietly even sadly acknowledged and life goes on in most cases. But in some, everyone gets so upset over that crime, bounties are exacted, basketball teams protest, other protests are held all over the country, politicians and civil rights leaders speak up & TV news & Google explode with repeated reports of 99% reporting only one side of the story. I don't think there would be anywhere near the outrage if I were stalked & murdered in the manner I mentioned above, even if the shooter were of a different race. I wonder why?

Since you posted this to me (or, rather, quoted me)...I felt I should follow up.

I think we're saying much of the same thing - bc, yes, I do think the example you used above would be *just* as heinous. I don't see any difference in terms of that. Is that what you're asking me?

I agree, there a zillion crimes we never hear about that are equally as tragic - and it's very sad that we can't give our national attention to each and every victim. Similarly, I'd like every animal cruelty case reported on every station. However, I've sometimes come to appreciate what is in the media (whether human or animal), if something positive can come of it. I don't mean I like what the media often does to a case, how slanted the reporting is -- but, I feel pretty powerless to effect change in that area.

I do believe things stay in the media bc they touch upon something that needs to be discussed.

[Lil Sis]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I'm really shocked by the statement, black crime against white has always been taken much more seriously. I don't even think the cops would have done anything about this if there hadn't been an outcry. I'm not lableing anyone anything, there are NO perfect kids, black or white. This guy should not have been using a gun to patrol his neigborhood, and when he reported it, they told him not to follow. He is the one who did not do what the police told him to do. Even if, Trayvon fought him, he probably was scared for his life. I wouldn't feel any better if Trayvon had been killed with a bully club.

I used to teach at an intercity high school.. 8 years. I saw a lot of wonderful great kids get arrested because of profiling- parents had to fight for them as well as their teachers. Made me so mad.

I think white on black causes more hatred and outcry if it included a "power" figure.. such as police, crime watch and such. Maybe it is the feeling of helpness that someone who should be protecting us does the crime. On the otherhand there have been riots/protest when a known drug dealer is killed by police.. I think the anger is as I said before the "power" figure.

So my point is: YES there is a problem in the USA.. it has many sides and all groups are guilty. Is there a solution? IDK

[yorkietalkjilly]

I thought I'd heard he was a private citizen who self-volunteered rather than being a power figure sanctioned by police. I didn't know he was part of an organized program
that gave him any kind of control or power over his neighbors or others. And isn't he Hispanic and not white?

[Lil Sis]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I thought I'd heard he was a private citizen who self-volunteered rather than being a power figure sanctioned by police. I didn't know he was part of an organized program
that gave him any kind of control or power over his neighbors or others. And isn't he Hispanic and not white?

I didn't know hispanic was a race... by white do you mean american?

Yes, I think he was a part of a private crime watch. But that still would and could be viewed as having "power"

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

My heart is so broken to be labeled as sounding prejudiced, maybe I need to tell you a bit about myself. For the last 3 years, all of my monthly charitable contributions - 100% - have gone to an organization that builds schools and digs water wells for babies in South Africa. When I worked for the medical group before I retired, in clearing our patients for total joint surgery, I found a few of our older black women, those in their 70's & 80's, were fearful of going for their mammograms and for their OB/GYN check-ups & PAP smears and no amount of talking to some of them would change their minds. I finally started offering to take them to their appointments and that usually did the trick. I would take off work and take those ladies to their OB/GYN PAP's and pelvic exams and go with most of them into the exam room when many were so frightened and then we'd go on for the mammogram screening, either that or another day. They just needed someone who understood their fear and to hold their hands to help them get past it. Many hadn't been for those exams in so long, they were scared they might have cancer & it just paralyzed them to break down and go alone. Having someone go with them gave them courage. I almost lost my job as office manager when I fought the doctors to hire our first black employee in 25 years. They feared it would hurt their largely carriage-trade business, I guess, though that was not the reason they gave verbally. The discussions got grim. I made a deal with them & hired her anyway as she had that passion in her eyes for caring for people and a loving heart. She was a gifted worker. As a collector of teddy bears and dolls, I love toys so I couldn't stand little children at Christmas in a neighborhood I knew about not having much at all so, even after I became disabled, I would load up the car with dolls and teddies and other toys for boys and drive on Christmas Eve day to a particular well-known "drug" neighborhood down near Baylor Hospital that most of us employees drove through to get to the highway to the suburbs and I would pass out toys to the little black children whose parents would permit them to take them. And all would allow it that would come to the door. To those whose parents weren't home, they still got toys. The older black ladies who lived alone in the tiny one or two-room homes in that neighborhood and who would open the door, I asked for permission to give a gift of money throughout the year as I could afford it. But each Christmas Eve was one of the best days of my year seeing the smiles from those little babies who had so little and were suffering so much in the lifestyles of their parents. I couldn't help them in any other way right then but as little as it was, I did what I personally could to brighten their Christmas. I know I could have done more, but as a single woman I did my best. Probably most of you here do far more cause, money & time-wise than I can. I would never ordinarily mention things like this, but when one is said to sound prejudiced on a public forum that anyone can read, and as some of you know my name & where I live, the somewhat public figure I work for part-time, besides being so personally painful, I feel I have to share what some might say are indications I am not at all as even obliquely suggested. Where I work now part-time, most of our patients are black professional athletes in Major League Baseball and I love those kids dearly. I felt on this forum I would not be indirectly questioned publicly as to possible racial bias since I didn't express hateful or ugly racial comments and only asked questions and made comparisons about why all black babies killed as teens or even old ladies aren't mourned and focused on with equal pain and wondering why we all don't want to wait to judge before the trial. And knowing how I've lived and the posts I made on this and all threads I've posted on, I cannot accept that I sound prejudiced against any person of color. My heart has always gone out to their causes, their deprivation and pain, their sweet hearts, kind ways, strong faith and I have never behaved in a prejudiced manner or had prejudiced thoughts toward even one of them in my whole life. I've put my love, time, prayers and money to work to help as I personally could. If I sounded prejudiced to anyone, including Nancy, I apologize and apologize further for not sharing more of myself along with my questions so you could know my heart and I would, had I thought for one moment it would turn out as it did. I really do love you all and love this forum where we can openly discuss issues and exchange ideas and questions on issues other than dogs occasionally.

I really want to apologize for hurting you. That was not my intent, but I could see no reason to compare the cases besides the fact that black males were involved. I don’t even think this should be about race, if the kid were white, people would still be outraged. I do think that there wouldn’t be so many willing to defend Zimmerman’s actions. That's the part I'm confused about, why do so many people think what he did was okay, and why shouldn't he have to answer for it in a court of law?

Clearly, you are a wonderful person, giving of your time and energy to people, I really admire you for what you have done, and wish I had chosen my words more carefully. I do think it's different to say "that sounds prejudice" then YOU are prejudiced. To me, they mean two entirely different things, one is addressing a statement that you made and one is judging your character. So I hope you can accept my appology, the thought that I said something that hurts you, hurts me.