Live Birth / whelping

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Corfield

No matter how much you want to twist the facts, it is the overwhelming scientific and professional view of vets and animal behaviourists that puppies are fine to go to their new homes at 8 weeks of age.

The bile being hurled at people adhering to that advice is unjustified and says a lot about the rationality and personality of those spouting it.

Oh, come on, down get mad! No reason to boil over. What "facts" have we twisted and "bile" are you talking about? You personally demanded Lovetodream88 produce scientific evidence of her beliefs and all I am asking to see is scientific evidence of yours, which only seems fair. I asked if everyone wanted to see what I'd found in the way of scientific studies(evidence) that seemed to prove Lovetodream88 and most of our points on this thread and provided links to scientific abstracts with the entire studies for rental/purchase. These work products of months and years of very costly studies are rarely shared for free with the public. But you haven't yet provided links to scientific study abstracts/full article-access to prove your point of view yet, just someone's supposed summary, which is open to his interpretation and bias, too.

So why so upset? No need to get hyper - we're good folks and want what's best for the puppies. Just find some scientific studies that help prove the point you keep belaboring.

Otherwise, we're left with just a series of vets(not all reputable or small breed vets), breeders(not all breed for the best of reasons) and buyers personal impressions based on experiences - both good and bad, though we rarely see the "bad" published for public consumption other than in published scientific studies, really, do we? Breeders don't actually often share and broadcast records of their breeding failures in their brochures, magazine, newspapers and website ads, do they?

Contrary to your beliefs on the best separation age, most of the reputable, long-respected breeders on this large Yorkie forum who only breed to improve the Yorkshire Terrier seem to agree that the puppies fare better in life if left with mom for the extended period of 12 weeks. I'd hope most YT'ers tend to go along with these breeders' vast experience of long years and maybe even appreciate the published studies that tend to demonstrate the puppies themselves fare better in several areas if left longer with mom, at least until we see some other scientific, empirical evidence to disprove it.

Still, if you have no actual studies to share, that's okay, too. Everyone is free to form their own opinion on the subject of whether puppies lives are enriched and improved by an extended stay with the mother dog based on what we've all presented and discussed here.

How are your pups doing? Everybody thriving and mom okay?

[OwnedByJezebel]

Originally Posted by Corfield

No matter how much you want to twist the facts, it is the overwhelming scientific and professional view of vets and animal behaviourists that puppies are fine to go to their new homes at 8 weeks of age.

The bile being hurled at people adhering to that advice is unjustified and says a lot about the rationality and personality of those spouting it.

Overwhelming scientific and professional views? You demand pier reviewed studies, but have provided none yourself. If it's"overwhelming" certainly you can find some (that are repeatable and pier reviewed) to share that prove your opinion.

IMO, your final comment was nothing short of insulting and uncalled-for. Unlike you, no one here has called you names or has questioned your rationality or personality, they've only tried to discuss their own beliefs, practices, and many years of experience. You're not going to get respect if you don't give it yourself.

Of course puppies can be separated form momma and litter at 7-8 weeks and survive. They're eating solid food by then, and that is what vets look for. But is that optimal for a tiny breed? They are so small and have so little reserves compared to the larger breeds. And they really miss out what they learn from being with the momma and litter during a crucial time of learning. The two Yorkies that at 7-8 weeks I got in years past were VERY difficult to break from bite inhibition, and don't get me started on the Maltese I almost lost to convulsions from hypoglycemia, and had to take off two weeks from work to watch and prevent three more episodes.

I am not a breeder (and I never plan to be), but as an adopter I know what I'm going to look for in the future as far as breeders go, and it won't be a breeder that lets their pups go at 7-8 weeks.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Corfield

No matter how much you want to twist the facts, it is the overwhelming scientific and professional view of vets and animal behaviourists that puppies are fine to go to their new homes at 8 weeks of age.

The bile being hurled at people adhering to that advice is unjustified and says a lot about the rationality and personality of those spouting it.

Overwhelming view for every breed of dog? I don't think so. There was no bile at anyone. Questioning of course. You asked for peer reviewed studies - yet you showed none. The fact remains that over here in North America, both the YTC A and Yorkshire Terrier Club of Canada recommend 12wks old. And they are not alone - Maltese Clubs and many other toy breed clubs do so as well...

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Oh, come on, down get mad! No reason to boil over. What "facts" have we twisted and "bile" are you talking about? You personally demanded Lovetodream88 produce scientific evidence of her beliefs and all I am asking to see is scientific evidence of yours, which only seems fair. I asked if everyone wanted to see what I'd found in the way of scientific studies(evidence) that seemed to prove Lovetodream88 and most of our points on this thread and provided links to scientific abstracts with the entire studies for rental/purchase. These work products of months and years of very costly studies are rarely shared for free with the public. But you haven't yet provided links to scientific study abstracts/full article-access to prove your point of view yet, just someone's supposed summary, which is open to his interpretation and bias, too.

So why so upset? No need to get hyper - we're good folks and want what's best for the puppies. Just find some scientific studies that help prove the point you keep belaboring.

Otherwise, we're left with just a series of vets(not all reputable or small breed vets), breeders(not all breed for the best of reasons) and buyers personal impressions based on experiences - both good and bad, though we rarely see the "bad" published for public consumption other than in published scientific studies, really, do we? Breeders don't actually often share and broadcast records of their breeding failures in their brochures, magazine, newspapers and website ads, do they?

Contrary to your beliefs on the best separation age, most of the reputable, long-respected breeders on this large Yorkie forum who only breed to improve the Yorkshire Terrier seem to agree that the puppies fare better in life if left with mom for the extended period of 12 weeks. I'd hope most YT'ers tend to go along with these breeders' vast experience of long years and maybe even appreciate the published studies that tend to demonstrate the puppies themselves fare better in several areas if left longer with mom, at least until we see some other scientific, empirical evidence to disprove it.

Still, if you have no actual studies to share, that's okay, too. Everyone is free to form their own opinion on the subject of whether puppies lives are enriched and improved by an extended stay with the mother dog based on what we've all presented and discussed here.

How are your pups doing? Everybody thriving and mom okay?

Excellent post! When one talks the talk, one should be able to walk that talk, and throwing out opinions with nothing but opinions to prop it up, is woefully inadequate. In this post above, scientific research and studies and how to procure them have been produced, not just opinion. It has always been my experience that a negligible number of owners or breeders that routinely buy puppies and sell at 6-8 weeks of age, will admit they have not acted in the best interest of the puppy. For a breeder to keep a puppy until 12-14 weeks of age, is certainly NOT doing it because they could care LESS about that puppy. Keeping puppies for an extended period of time is a labor of love, an emotional drain, nerve racking, time consuming, space allocation challenge, additional cleaning responsibilities, and last but not least, a proportionate decrease in a breeders ability to break even on the sale of that puppy! When sold at 6-8 weeks, NONE of the above points are an issue to be dealt with by a breeder.....so it is clearly in the best interest of the breeder to get those babies out to new homes as quickly as possible.....saves money, time, and labor. But it is NOT what is best for the puppy, and if you are breeding, THAT should your bottom line.....do what is absolutely the best for those puppies, from conception to dispersal. If that is NOT a breeders main concern, just be a broker.....less than 1/3 of the cost, work, worry, and emotional investment being a breeder entails.....and the broker's motivation is honest, transparent and needs no explanation or excuse.

[dray]

I have read most of the posts , and I just thought I would tell you how I feel. As a breeder and show person , I feel like I want to do the very best job I can raising the puppies in my care. Believe me , from 8 weeks to 12 weeks there is a lot of work to do. Yes the easy way out is to send them out early and let the new families teach them and clean all the poop!!

But what worries me most is the health of the puppies. I want them to be with me when they get their first shot at 9 weeks. It is my job as a reputable breeder to take the responsibility to watch them closely . Just like human babies the shots can hurt and they may not want to eat. In a heart beat , they can go from good to being in a lot of trouble. They are here because I know what to do for them , I can see the signs early, my husband and I are here watching them.

The next three weeks , we play and teach the puppies , not to bite, and to play nice. They learn so much in the three weeks. Yes they eat well and yes they could go to their new homes , but it is their 12 week shot that I want them to have with me too. That is the shot that might bring on a reaction. Again, I want them with me , as they are my responsibility . I do not want the new families to deal with a sick puppy.

When the puppies leave our home I feel they are healthy and emotionally ready.

I know this from the calls I get, saying "I have the smartest puppy" or " my puppy slept through the night"

I think 12 weeks is the right age for the Yorkies, but that is just me. I believe I am a responsible breeder, and I will keep my puppies longer if needed . I do not breed for the money so I am in no hurry to get them out the door.

However, I do believe larger breed dogs should go to their new homes at or around 8 weeks, they are just stronger than our little toy dogs.

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by dray

I have read most of the posts , and I just thought I would tell you how I feel. As a breeder and show person , I feel like I want to do the very best job I can raising the puppies in my care. Believe me , from 8 weeks to 12 weeks there is a lot of work to do. Yes the easy way out is to send them out early and let the new families teach them and clean all the poop!!

But what worries me most is the health of the puppies. I want them to be with me when they get their first shot at 9 weeks. It is my job as a reputable breeder to take the responsibility to watch them closely . Just like human babies the shots can hurt and they may not want to eat. In a heart beat , they can go from good to being in a lot of trouble. They are here because I know what to do for them , I can see the signs early, my husband and I are here watching them.

The next three weeks , we play and teach the puppies , not to bite, and to play nice. They learn so much in the three weeks. Yes they eat well and yes they could go to their new homes , but it is their 12 week shot that I want them to have with me too. That is the shot that might bring on a reaction. Again, I want them with me , as they are my responsibility . I do not want the new families to deal with a sick puppy.

When the puppies leave our home I feel they are healthy and emotionally ready.

I know this from the calls I get, saying "I have the smartest puppy" or " my puppy slept through the night"

I think 12 weeks is the right age for the Yorkies, but that is just me. I believe I am a responsible breeder, and I will keep my puppies longer if needed . I do not breed for the money so I am in no hurry to get them out the door.

However, I do believe larger breed dogs should go to their new homes at or around 8 weeks, they are just stronger than our little toy dogs.

I think the points highlighted above are, for me, what distinguishes a breeder who is breeding for the betterment of the breed vs a breeder whose drive is the money.


I don't believe that YT's are necessarily going to come to great harm on every occasion when let go at 8 weeks but why take the chance unless it is for selfish reasons? There may be good reasons but I haven't seen any posted here, thus far.


Thank you for posting from your point of view!

[Corfield]

"Puppies are most usually ready to leave their mothers at eight weeks old"

Osman A Sameja - The Yorkshire Terrier It's Care and Training ISBN 0 903264 25 0

And a logical fallacy of an appeal to novelty won't do.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Corfield

"Puppies are most usually ready to leave their mothers at eight weeks old"

Osman A Sameja - The Yorkshire Terrier It's Care and Training ISBN 0 903264 25 0

And a logical fallacy of an appeal to novelty won't do.

I'm not invested in the debate one way or another...but I'm curious why you want to dump these puppies so early? Are they that much trouble under foot? If buyers think that breeders who keep pups to 12 weeks are better breeders why do you want to possibly impair your reputation? Just curious

[Corfield]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I'm not invested in the debate one way or another...but I'm curious why you want to dump these puppies so early? Are they that much trouble under foot? If buyers think that breeders who keep pups to 12 weeks are better breeders why do you want to possibly impair your reputation? Just curious

Loaded question or what !

Might as well be trying to have a sensible discussion with a brick.

Have you any idea who the author of that books is ?

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I'm not invested in the debate one way or another...but I'm curious why you want to dump these puppies so early? Are they that much trouble under foot? If buyers think that breeders who keep pups to 12 weeks are better breeders why do you want to possibly impair your reputation? Just curious

Good question...straight forward, precise, to the point....waiting for an answer to the question instead of total avoidance of your question.....sounded like a politician talking!

[Disasterous]

Okay, I will be the first to admit that I'm not the smartest when it comes down to getting a pup at a certain age. When I got my Cocker Spaniel, he was 9 weeks old. He was the last of the litter and according to my mom she had to sign a plethora of puppy papers. We never had an issue with him eating, socialization, ect. He was, aside from a hook worm incident, a healthy and happy dog. When I got my Yorkie, he was a mere 8 weeks old. He, too, was the last of the litter, and my mom payed half price for him. We had zero issues with him, and he was a healthy little dog.

In my opinion, which does not have to affect yours, is that it's fine for the pup to leave it's mother at both eight and twelve weeks; however, it needs to be ready and at a good weight/size, and the breeder needs to be educated and have good judgment. Of course, if the pup is not ready to leave the mother, the breeder can keep it until it is.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Corfield

Loaded question or what !

Might as well be trying to have a sensible discussion with a brick.

Have you any idea who the author of that books is ?

Wow, you really do have a chip on your shoulder....

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

Good question...straight forward, precise, to the point....waiting for an answer to the question instead of total avoidance of your question.....sounded like a politician talking!

Thank you. I thought it was a good question. I didn't find it to be loaded at all. It was quite simple...maybe I overestimated that it would be easily tackled by any breeder. She can't get rid of them fast enough and I wondered why. Might as well let them go at 6 weeks even!

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by Disasterous

Okay, I will be the first to admit that I'm not the smartest when it comes down to getting a pup at a certain age. When I got my Cocker Spaniel, he was 9 weeks old. He was the last of the litter and according to my mom she had to sign a plethora of puppy papers. We never had an issue with him eating, socialization, ect. He was, aside from a hook worm incident, a healthy and happy dog. When I got my Yorkie, he was a mere 8 weeks old. He, too, was the last of the litter, and my mom payed half price for him. We had zero issues with him, and he was a healthy little dog.

In my opinion, which does not have to affect yours, is that it's fine for the pup to leave it's mother at both eight and twelve weeks; however, it needs to be ready and at a good weight/size, and the breeder needs to be educated and have good judgment. Of course, if the pup is not ready to leave the mother, the breeder can keep it until it is.

Operative phrase....."cocker spaniel". Yorkies are not cockers..... Yorkies are a different breed, and while I have had cocker puppies, german shepherd puppies, irish setter puppies, pointer puppies, beagle puppies, and have bred Chihuahuas and Yorkies, Yorkies benefitted from remaining with momma for 12 weeks. I have seen the interaction of mommas and their babies, and Yorkies interact differently than any of the other breeds I have had the pleasure of watching develop and mature. Even if they did not learn and develop so much from week 8 to week 12, puppies going out at 8 weeks old are unvaccinated.....I wish a reputable breeder could expolane to me why in the world you would send out your puppies to new owners unvaccinated....or with only one in a series of 3 or 4 puppy shots given? It can only be to avoid the work involved with keeping those babies, or to avoid the expenses involved with those additional 4 weeks....I give my last puppy shot at 14 weeks of age, then keep the baby an additional week to give the shot time to become effective, and to make sure the baby is not going to have ANY adverse reaction to the shot. I can not stand the thought of dumping a youngster on a new owner, thinking they may get sick from the vaccination or anything else. Why would a breeder want to do that? Why would a breeder not even THINK about the possibility of that happening? Your primary concern SHOULD be for the well being of the puppy.....

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

Good question...straight forward, precise, to the point....waiting for an answer to the question instead of total avoidance of your question.....sounded like a politician talking!