1st yorkie pup! Please help. Any advice on undocked tails or Parti coloring?

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by kaydelongpre

My question in short: Would you buy a yorkie w/o a docked tail, or a parti colored yorkie?

My question in full w/ the background info:
I recently met a yorkie and was petting her and cuddling her and had none of my usual allergies, so I realized yorkies might be the perfect breed for me. My friend & neighbor has always had yorkies and her last one just passed away a few months ago. I was getting mine from this really nice breeder and was going to look at the pups who are super tiny, and to interact with them and the mothers so I could test my allergies once more. My friend decided to come with to meet the pups because she wanted to get a new one with me.
This breeder was clean, her pups were AKC registered and super sweet and very small. She had 3 females. 1 retired/spayed after having 2 litters. 2 having their second (and last) litters. She explained she only wanted to do it twice to each one to keep them as healthy as possible. She had great vet references, I actually met the vet who is right down the road from her and did all the pup's shots already and does all the housecalls to check on the mommas. She seemed great to me.
We left the breeder after meeting the available puppies who were still too young to go home and just as I was about to say "wow I loved her, I'm definitely going to bring her a deposit and pick one of the pups for her to hold for me tomorrow", my friend says "I'm glad we didn't already pay because I would never get a puppy from that woman." Her reasons were that one of the mothers was the tri-colored Parti coloring, my friend swears those cannot be purebred and the documents must be forged and that they have no value. Another reason was that one of her breeding females (the spayed one who is now retired) had floppy ears. The breeder showed that all the puppies have perfectly standing up ears, but said her one mom just never had them stand up and she decided she was fine how she was and chose not to tape the dog's ears since it was her personal pet and not a puppy she was selling. Lastly, my friend was upset that the woman doesn't crop the puppies' tails. She explained that she thought docking an animal's tail was barbaric and cruel, and said it was even illegal in the UK. She says they're going to be people's beloved pets, so why do tails matter? She said putting her puppies in pain when it's not necessary would be terrible for her.
I tended to agree with her that cutting an animal's tail was pretty cruel, and I probably wouldn't force my dogs ears to stand up if she was just my own pet and not in shows either. But my friend is adamant that this woman is not a good breeder and her pups are worthless because they may carry the Parti gene and have full tails.
I'm now trying to figure out if any of this is a legitimate reason not to get my puppy from her. She seems great in every other field to me. Is my friend being a snob or is she right? Would YOU by a yorkie with an undocked tail, or a parti colored yorkie?
Sorry if this is a dumb question. Like I said, this is my first yorkie. Thanks so much. xoxo

I would like to answer your questions since this thread has been kind of derailed.

Here are my thoughts on this matter.

I think that it's great that you have a friend that is knowledgable about the breed. It sounds like she has done some homework on how to look for a reputable breeder. My feeling is that you should follow your friends advice and walk away from this breeder for the simple fact that she just didn't have a good feeling about it. Maybe it's not the idea the mom had a floppy ear or that she had partis (lots of debate on YT regarding Partis do a search), or the idea that she didn't dock tails. Since I was not there personally I would say go with your friends gut reaction. I believe in following intuition over everything else. There is no rush in getting a puppy and it's never a good idea to buy the first anything you see.

As for the full tail let me weigh in on that too. I agree with LoveToDream(Taylor) that it is AKC standard to have a cropped tail. But that alone would not be a deciding factor in a puppy purchase or deciding if someone was reputable as a breeder. I have a Yorkie/Maltese mix that has a full tail and love it. I also have a Yorkie with a tail that was docked way too short and is a nub. AND I also have a blonde Yorkie that you might want to call a Parti or whatever you'd like to call him who is from a shelter who has a docked tail. So tail or no tail I love them all. It's the Dew Claws that need to be removed at birth.....IMO

[DBlain]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I agree with that philosophy because anyone who is mixing colors is NOT doing it for any reason but the bottom line...money. People are so gullible thinking that teacups and off colors are special and worth so much money. Sad thing is that no one cares really about the health and well being of these pups. There was one breeder on here who talked about using a hammer to cull pups. *scream*

People say go to the pound because quite frankly you are paying for something that is not worth what is being charged in most cases. It is sad and all about marketing...and again, bottom line.

that depends on where you get your puppy mix from and how much they charge. I paid the same for Lola as I would have from most shelters or rescue group, most rescue groups would have charged more for a puppy like Lola. However like you said there are very gullible people out there that will pay more for the wrong reasons. I have a hard time with blanket statements like "no one really cares about the health and well being on these pups" because I can't help but wonder if the person really knows everyone

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by DBlain

that depends on where you get your puppy mix from and how much they charge. I paid the same for Lola as I would have from most shelters or rescue group, most rescue groups would have charged more for a puppy like Lola. However like you said there are very gullible people out there that will pay more for the wrong reasons. I have a hard time with blanket statements like "no one really cares about the health and well being on these pups" because I can't help but wonder if the person really knows everyone

That's because a shelter or a rescue only cares that a dog has a good home so they don't pump up prices or claim to have something unique or rare to line their pockets.

[ironmike86]

IMO if you want a Purebreed. Go to a reputable breeder. Yorkies and alot of purebreeds have poor breeding from mills. Which breeds unhealthy dogs. Ears erect is a standard. A reputable breeder would not breed one with floopy ears most likely they are just to long. They don't crop them they shave the hair is needed. Every Yorkie pup I've held had erect ears on their own. An easy trait to achieve. Dog are Not to small not to big. But they come out all sizes. They don't mix partis,brewers with traditional. They health check they dock the tails. If you don't want your dog to have a dock tail I'm sure they won't do it. IME good breeder usually have them sold before they are even bred. So you can make the request..Maybe. They do health checks ect. Have a healthy history of lineage. If your dog has floppy ear or is really big or small doesn't mean its not a purebred or bad dog either. Just a reputable breeder won't take a tiny or teapot and breed them either.Ppl who breed pups justs to have pups are breeders. Not good ..most likely didn't do health checks ..pups are lucky if they had homes first. You will NOT get a Show Dog. PPL think they are getting a pet because they don't want a "Show" ...You aren't getting one anyways. But a good quality puppy ime comes from Show breeders who want the best and have the resources to stud from around the World. The OPS question sure the puppy if you want one but for big money?? Heck no. Not because the puppy needs love. The puppy is still good. I personally won't support a breeder like that.I would rescue on instead. There some home breeders who have a few mated pairs which are close to the standards may try to do the right thing...just finding a breeder is hard..one whos not shady. Why spend $1500 from someone who doesn't health check,or even try to conform standards?? Not the ops breeder but any breeder? JMO

[gemy]

Originally Posted by ColesMommy01

May seem like an odd question. What makes the parti coloring an automatic disqualification? Does have rounded instead of the V-shaped ears, undocked tail, or a bad bite also merit an automatic disqualification? Obviously you can tell I don't show .

THE YTCA the National Club for Yorkshire Terriers sets the standard. They determine what is an automatic DQ or disqualification. And as I mentioned there is only one DQ for the YOrkie and that is color.


Rounded ears drop ears, bad bite will not get a Yorkie DQ - but would be considered serious faults - long tail just a fault. There is a rule of three it is a rough rule for show breeders - but it goes something llike this ; three faults and you are out of the show ring.


The Standard for the Yorkshire Terrier is available from the AKC website as well as from the YTCA - it will elaborate what are the DQ's/

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by DBlain

that depends on where you get your puppy mix from and how much they charge. I paid the same for Lola as I would have from most shelters or rescue group, most rescue groups would have charged more for a puppy like Lola. However like you said there are very gullible people out there that will pay more for the wrong reasons. I have a hard time with blanket statements like "no one really cares about the health and well being on these pups" because I can't help but wonder if the person really knows everyone

I am referring to the people breeding all of the tinies and mixed colors and YES I said it exactly as I mean it. They don't care about anything but the bottom line.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by DBlain

Often I feel so conflicted on topics like this because I agree that it is a good idea to have breed standards and if I bought a purebred yorkie that is what I would be looking for. Proper coloring is a big part of the yorkie standard, but yet I really like the look of a parti or a Biewer so if I ever decided to get another yorkie I would probably get a Parti which was not considered standard so LOL I have a hard time in figuring out what side of the discussion I am on, LOL can I be on both sides?

The only thing I know for sure is not docking a tale is in no way a sign that a breeder is not reputable. And I can tell in the US the tide is turning in the direction of undocked tails. Gail you may know the answer to this, is the US the only country where a docked tail on a yorkie is still considered standard?

FCI which is one of the largest registries world wide has the Standard as undocked. I would have to look at all the non member FCI countries to see what their standards say.


The UK Standard is for full tails - in fact you can't show in the UK a docked tail Yorkie.

[Verbena]

Originally Posted by ColesMommy01

May seem like an odd question. What makes the parti coloring an automatic disqualification? Does have rounded instead of the V-shaped ears, undocked tail, or a bad bite also merit an automatic disqualification? Obviously you can tell I don't show .

Standard colors that are acceptable for a Yorkie are

BLACK & GOLD
BLACK & TAN
BLUE & GOLD
BLUE & TAN

White is a automatic disqualification

[gemy]

http://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/am...ireTerrier.pdf

Dis qualification : Any solid color or combination of colors other than Blue and Tan as described above.


See the Standard - while you may register those colors the only acceptable color is Tan and Blue for the show ring.

[ironmike86]

Partis have their own parent club Biewers Terriers have their own parent club. Yorkies have their own parent club. All Acknowledged by AKC. They make the standard for each breed. But only the "Traditional" Yorkie can do conformation under the Akc. As far as I know. This is a reason why Yorkie breeders don't mix colors. They are considered different in there eyes. I guess keeping the White out of the steel blue and gold is hard to do. So the Partis that want white..well. For ppl who want a pet it may not matter but for a Traditional breeder it does. If you like certain traits of certain dogs...you breed to keep them. For any type of pure breed dog

[Verbena]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I agree with that philosophy because anyone who is mixing colors is NOT doing it for any reason but the bottom line...money. People are so gullible thinking that teacups and off colors are special and worth so much money. Sad thing is that no one cares really about the health and well being of these pups. There was one breeder on here who talked about using a hammer to cull pups. *scream*

People say go to the pound because quite frankly you are paying for something that is not worth what is being charged in most cases. It is sad and all about marketing...and again, bottom line.

As with Galen who is a Biewer. (Yes IMO they are Tri colored Yorkies from Germany.) He was bred by a reputable show breeder. The reputable Biewer breeders that are doing it for the better of the breed. Just as Mr Biewer, who started the Biewer Breed, was a Yorkshire Terrier breeder. I did my research. I know that a Biewer is not much more then a Yorkshire Terrier. If the breeder is charging a large amount of money. Yes they are just just doing it for the money.

[Verbena]

The Biewer, named after the founder,originated in Germany in the mid 80's. Over the years they are selectively bred and a standard was set. The standard is similar to the Yorkie, but calls for specific color placement. White paws, tip of the tail, symetrical coloring on the head and face, etc and no docking of tail. It has been recognized as a separate breed by some organization and can be shown in some venues. Not in the AKC

Partis are tri-colored Yorkies. They can be registered with but not shown in AKC. Can be shown in some other venues. There is no standard set for them that allows for the non-standard coloring, but typically, most Parti breeders follow the YT standard with color as the exception.

Biewer info can be found here...

http://www.biewerbci.org

You can get more info on the Parti Yorkie here...

Yorkshire Terrier - PARTI YORKSHIRE TERRIER CLUB

[MauiGirl]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I have a parti girl w/ an undocked tail and I have to say, her tail is just *beautiful*!! I'm so glad it was not amputated. I actually hope docking is someday outlawed here, as I believe it's unnecessary and cruel. Follow your heart!

I am so happy you posted this. I adore Little Ms Phiefer and would love to see more photos of her too.

My Morkies have the most beautiful full tail plumes, and I wish Tiki had one too. It seems like such a natural expression of their personalities to see those tails carried high above their backs, or wagging like flags. Poor Tiki has such a tiny nub, I let the hair grow long on it so she has something to wag.

[kaydelongpre]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I don't necessarily agree with the breed standards and many dogs are poorly effected by them but reputable breeders have to breed to standard that's just how it is. I think your comment that only puppy mills, or snobs or showers worry about the standard is very off and show not a lot of knowledge on this. Puppy mills don't care if the dogs are bred to standard or if the dogs are healthy and taken care of, I'm thinking you do not know what a puppy mill is so please do some googling. People who care about this breed and love this breed care about the standard. That whole snob statement is very rude. As I sit here with my 17 pound floppy eared could not be further from the standard yorkie on my lap who came from a puppy mill I wounder what the heck is going on where people call someone who loves the breed and cares for the breed a snob!

Whoa, Sorry for confusion or offense. I wasn't talking about Yorkies at all. Like I said, the yorkie faults I was referencing aren't a health problem. I was talking about my experience in the English Bulldog breeding community when I said the comment about mills, show dogs, and snobs. So many people look for the standard bulldog look of flat face, super short stature, tiny narrow hips, and huge bowed out shoulders. Show bulldogs all have that look. Like they are cartoon characters with the exaggerated extreme shoulders and chest and that giant flat face. We had many many people call willing to pay any price so long as we could "guarantee they wouldn't grow taller than a foot" and asking about the hip to shoulder ratio in the dam. These people only cared about looks and when told that those specific looks can be extremely unhealthy, and that we only breed for looks to a certain point but the ability to breathe, run, climb, etc was the priority, they would very often say they would just go to a breeder with the perfect looking ones who guarantee a height and dimensions. In my opinion, those people are snobs. People who wanted this dog as a status symbol to show they can afford a $2500 dog who is tiny and wide and has those exaggerated "bulldog" features. Those people only out to get dogs based on how they look and how extreme their features are but aren't at all concerned when told about their dog's probable inability to breathe, inability to walk, arthritis, fractures, dysplasia, etc etc, are indeed snobs in my opinion.
Much like someone calling a breeder and saying they only want a yorkie who is a "teacup" and is guaranteed to stay 2lbs or under, and refusing to buy from a breeder who won't make such a guarantee and explains the risk of hypoglycemia, fragility, anesthesia complications, dangerous surgeries, broken bones from falls, hereditary ailments, etc. I would consider a person like that a snob too. Obviously neither you, nor anyone on here with good advice and genuine love & concern for their dogs is anyone like the kind of people I was trying to describe that all too often call breeders looking for something that's just not healthy simply for looks & status.

I wasn't equating situations like that to the color/tail/ear discussion we were having. I absolutely understand why some people prefer breed standards and want ears to stand up and tails to be docked. If you re-read my post it clearly says that I know those are not comparable to health problems and I wasn't saying they are anything at all like the Bulldog issues I was referencing. When I talked about my experience with the EB breed, I stated that I was just suggesting a circumstance where sometimes the breed standard isn't necessarily the most humane, safe, and ethical thing to follow.

PS In my experience just a few hours outside of Lancaster PA, those puppy mills that work with Bulldogs do indeed breed super tiny moms with crazy bowed out legs and flat faces and narrow hips. Reason being that mills are out for nothing but money. And a bulldog with that standard bulldog look can go for $5000 and up. I've had 3 EB rescues from mills. All 3 were indeed gorgeous, perfectly breed conforming between 12 & 15 inches tall, huge hip to shoulder ratio, dipping back, etc. However they had horrid lives. One, at only 4 years old, had such severe arthritis that she couldn't walk up or down a stair. Not even one. We carried her any time she needed to go down the porch stairs for the entire rest of her life. It was very sad. One couldn't even swim and we had to fence our entire pool so she never ever fell in, because if she did her arthritis, mixed with her elbow dysplasia, top heaviness, and constant panting, she would fall under and nearly drown. No amount of surgeries and medications can help a Bulldog that was solely bred for looks & standard live a life that isn't constantly painful. My entire point was that many people search for those looks, many breeders only breed mothers that look like that, and many mills breed whatever will make the most $$ regardless of the fact that it is cruel and extremely unhealthy. Such comparisons weren't to say people who want yorkies that conform to breed standard were anything like the EB people I have known at all. I was just stating that there are circumstances where some breed standards aren't always a good thing to conform to when it comes to a family's beloved pet.
Sorry for any offense, none was meant.

[kaydelongpre]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I don't know why yall can keep saying this person knows so much when she said puppy millers are one of the only ones who care about standard when we all know they could care less. I'm sure that the pms are flying off the walls about me again. But all the haters win so make sure you know Taylor is done her mouth is shut, you all win and can pat yourself on the back because you completed your mission after years of this yall have finally won and beat me down. Congrats!

Again very sorry I offended you. You misconstrued my wording, I'm very sorry. What I was trying to say in these quotes underneath this was that my experience breeding Bullies brought a lot of knowledgeable people being snobby about standards, hips, shoulders, and size who did not even care that their requested dimensions could cause terrible health problems. And I wasn't comparing it to the ear/color/tail thing. I was just stating that there's been times where I've seen dogs suffer due to breeding for looks to fit some kind of standard.

Originally Posted by kaydelongpre

My mom bred English Bulldogs for years, and the standard should be super short, very wide shoulders, narrow hips half the width of the shoulders, a little potbelly, and a back that goes from wide to thin towards the rear. However, the only people who really focus on those features are puppy mills, people looking for show dogs, or snobs who have no knowledge on the breed and just want something "cute".

Originally Posted by kaydelongpre

I'm aware that ears, colors, and tails in Yorkies is by no means a health problem, but that was just an example of a circumstance in which sometimes the "breed standard" can be pointless and actually cruel.

Also, when I referenced mills I 100% wasn't saying they care so much about bettering the breed. I was saying that in my experience with EB rescues from mills, they were all bred for looks to have the extreme features that rake in the most cash, and the mills had zero concern for their health. Obviously I was in no way in favor of them or think they breed to standard, otherwise I would not have extensively rescued mill dogs. However, like I said I am new to Yorkies so have never experienced seeing them from different breeders and/or mills so cannot compare that to my experience with the way I've seen mills breed EB's. Never owned a yorkie, do not know much yet but am trying to do a lot of research. I fell in love with the breed when I saw my first Yorkie and was completely taken by it's precious little personality and of course with the fact that unlike most dogs, they gave me no allergies. I thank you all for the input.