1st yorkie pup! Please help. Any advice on undocked tails or Parti coloring?

[DBlain]

Originally Posted by yavenay

Is the definition of purebred different from standard or are they one in the same? When I think of standard I think show quality...erect ears, tailed docked. Where purebred means to me there is no mixing with other breeds.

you are correct that a purebred is not a mix but most of the time when one purchases a purebred they are hoping it will look like a breed standard, even if they do not plan on showing the pup. It's a shame but first time buyers often don't do a lot of research, they either pick a pup off a photo on the internet or put money down on a very young pup then later on they are posting the common "does this look like a purebred yorkie" thread. So before you purchase a pup you should decide what appearance traits you are looking for and find a pup that fits it. I think one of the worst things for someone that wants a standard yorkie is to put a deposit down on a pup when they are a newborn and then they grow up looking larger and much different then the yorkie they had in their mind. Then to rub salt in the wound everywhere they go people are constantly challenging them with, THAT"S a yorkie, are you sure it's not a mix type of questions. I did not know much when I bought my first yorkie but I was pretty lucky he looked like a standard, he was healthy and had a nice coat, not show quality but no one would ever question he was not all yorkie. I also bought him at 4 months old, very different than buying one a week old. I remember seeing someone in a park shortly after I had my yorkie, they made a fuss over Reggie, they had a dog about the size of s**tzu with long yellowish silver hair that was unkempt and all one length, LOL she looked like a mop on leash. I said what kind of dog is yours and they said yorkie just like yours. I was so taken aback that this was the same breed as my pup, I literally jumped back in horror and said NO, this is not what my dog will look like, no way no how. When we walked away my friend said WELL I guess you did not like their dog Now I realize how rude I was and I would never say anything like that to someone again but I was so upset that a yorkie would look like that. So I think that is why the OP's friend feels so strongly that a yorkie needs to look like a yorkie, and come from parents that look like yorkies and while I still somewhat agree as I have grown older I have learned some things and changed my mind a bit, like I prefer tails, I love a parti yorkie and even heaven forbid a yorkie mix But to me they still have to be cute, but cute to me not someone else because after all one hopes owning a pup is a long time personal commitment.

[Verbena]

Well I am going to give my two cents . . . . I have a Biewer.


The Biewer, named after the founder,originated in Germany in the mid 80's. Over the years they are selectively bred and a standard was set. The standard is similar to the Yorkie, but calls for specific color placement. White paws, tip of the tail, symetrical coloring on the head and face, etc and no docking of tail. It has been recognized as a separate breed by some organization and can be shown in some venues. Not in the AKC


I personally love the look with the tail. As long as you go through a reputable breeder for a parti Yorkie go for it.

[kaydelongpre]

I'm glad so many people agree with me & this breeder on the tail situation. I was in disbelief when my friend told me no real yorkie owner would want one with a tail or off-colored.

It's surprising to me that there's still so many people obsessed with breed standard. My mom bred English Bulldogs for years, and the standard should be super short, very wide shoulders, narrow hips half the width of the shoulders, a little potbelly, and a back that goes from wide to thin towards the rear. However, the only people who really focus on those features are puppy mills, people looking for show dogs, or snobs who have no knowledge on the breed and just want something "cute". I've owned bulldogs who conform perfectly to that standard, and I've had ones that are a little off. But let me tell you something, those ones that conform perfectly have terrible lives where they can barely breathe correctly, snore constantly, have arthritis in the front legs and often fractures on the back legs, can't walk or run for more than a few minutes, and die an average of 4 years before my off-standard ones. As a breeder, we weren't concerned about perfecting that standard because of the fact that we are breeding for pets. Yes they were AKC and were very beautiful, but we never bred to have the crazy bowed out shoulders and narrow hips and pancake flat faces and short stature. Simply because these were going to be pets and what real loving, kind pet lover wants a dog that will literally be suffering in pain constantly, will cost thousands in vet bills, and then will die prematurely? We bred for health. We found only the healthiest female bulldogs to breed. Our bulldog mothers and puppies all lived to be 10-14, in startling contrast to most that only live to 8-10. We used moms that were a little taller than standard, without extreme bowed arms & narrow hips, & with faces that aren't overly flat. Using that method, we had an extremely high survival right, never lost a female in birth, and even had the vet tell us that our females were healthy enough to naturally whelp, though we opted for cesareans anyway just in case. To keep them at an inbetween level of healthy but still gorgeous and breed conforming, we used a standard looking champion stud much smaller & more standard than our females. The result was very healthy babies since they came from a healthy mother, yet also most of the perfect bulldog traits. In our opinion, it was the right way to do it if one's breeding for pets. Our way of doing this prolonged the lives of our own dogs and our puppies, and made dog ownership a breeze for our customers who never dealt with heartbreaking health problems or early deaths.

I'm aware that ears, colors, and tails in Yorkies is by no means a health problem, but that was just an example of a circumstance in which sometimes the "breed standard" can be pointless and actually cruel. A life time of arthritis, nasal surgeries, and broken bones is far worse than having a tail chopped off as a puppy. But the point remains. Sometimes the breed standard is pointless when you're getting a pet. Personally i'd rather have a bulldog who will live a long time and can run and breathe, and a yorkie that was never mutilated as a puppy, than conform to some silly standard.
But that's just my opinion.

[SirTeddykins]

Hi Kay Welcome to YT!


I believe in breeding to standard to a point. For example, I wouldn't endorse breeding 15 lb Yorkies or my own little boy who is perfect except for his cotton fur. Deviating outside of the breed standard too far means that there are no distinctive breeds, eventually.


BUT, standards should always be reviewed and revised when standards include the mutilation of dogs or breeding defects. For example, I recently came across a study which suggests that the neurodegenerative disorder chiari malformation is found in up to 90% of King Charles Spaniels. Like bulldogs, these poor dogs have been bred to the point of serious inherent health issues and we should really consider why we continue to breed these dogs in this way or at all knowing what we know.


So, my opinion is that standards should be met to a POINT.


If your new dog is healthy, from good lines, cared for, released at the appropriate time, etc. then the TAIL is a bonus! Like the concern you showed for your bulldogs, a breeder which allows a puppy to remain with the tail it was born with can only be a good one if they meet all the other necessary criteria!

Be sure to post pics when you get your new puppy

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by DBlain

I believe you are confusing reputable breeders with show breeders, but then I also know there are very few breeders that will ever meet your standards

No I'm not mixing them up at all. The only reason to breed is to better the breed whether you show dogs or not and when doing that you would be keeping the dog to the standard. I think saying few breeders will meet my standard is a bit unfair there are a few from here who have. It's not easy to find a reputable breeder but the more we buy from and support bad breeders the more we keep them in business and continue to make them hard to weed through.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by kaydelongpre

I'm glad so many people agree with me & this breeder on the tail situation. I was in disbelief when my friend told me no real yorkie owner would want one with a tail or off-colored.

It's surprising to me that there's still so many people obsessed with breed standard. My mom bred English Bulldogs for years, and the standard should be super short, very wide shoulders, narrow hips half the width of the shoulders, a little potbelly, and a back that goes from wide to thin towards the rear. However, the only people who really focus on those features are puppy mills, people looking for show dogs, or snobs who have no knowledge on the breed and just want something "cute". I've owned bulldogs who conform perfectly to that standard, and I've had ones that are a little off. But let me tell you something, those ones that conform perfectly have terrible lives where they can barely breathe correctly, snore constantly, have arthritis in the front legs and often fractures on the back legs, can't walk or run for more than a few minutes, and die an average of 4 years before my off-standard ones. As a breeder, we weren't concerned about perfecting that standard because of the fact that we are breeding for pets. Yes they were AKC and were very beautiful, but we never bred to have the crazy bowed out shoulders and narrow hips and pancake flat faces and short stature. Simply because these were going to be pets and what real loving, kind pet lover wants a dog that will literally be suffering in pain constantly, will cost thousands in vet bills, and then will die prematurely? We bred for health. We found only the healthiest female bulldogs to breed. Our bulldog mothers and puppies all lived to be 10-14, in startling contrast to most that only live to 8-10. We used moms that were a little taller than standard, without extreme bowed arms & narrow hips, & with faces that aren't overly flat. Using that method, we had an extremely high survival right, never lost a female in birth, and even had the vet tell us that our females were healthy enough to naturally whelp, though we opted for cesareans anyway just in case. To keep them at an inbetween level of healthy but still gorgeous and breed conforming, we used a standard looking champion stud much smaller & more standard than our females. The result was very healthy babies since they came from a healthy mother, yet also most of the perfect bulldog traits. In our opinion, it was the right way to do it if one's breeding for pets. Our way of doing this prolonged the lives of our own dogs and our puppies, and made dog ownership a breeze for our customers who never dealt with heartbreaking health problems or early deaths.

I'm aware that ears, colors, and tails in Yorkies is by no means a health problem, but that was just an example of a circumstance in which sometimes the "breed standard" can be pointless and actually cruel. A life time of arthritis, nasal surgeries, and broken bones is far worse than having a tail chopped off as a puppy. But the point remains. Sometimes the breed standard is pointless when you're getting a pet. Personally i'd rather have a bulldog who will live a long time and can run and breathe, and a yorkie that was never mutilated as a puppy, than conform to some silly standard.
But that's just my opinion.

I don't necessarily agree with the breed standards and many dogs are poorly effected by them but reputable breeders have to breed to standard that's just how it is. I think your comment that only puppy mills, or snobs or showers worry about the standard is very off and show not a lot of knowledge on this. Puppy mills don't care if the dogs are bred to standard or if the dogs are healthy and taken care of, I'm thinking you do not know what a puppy mill is so please do some googling. People who care about this breed and love this breed care about the standard. That whole snob statement is very rude. As I sit here with my 17 pound floppy eared could not be further from the standard yorkie on my lap who came from a puppy mill I wounder what the heck is going on where people call someone who loves the breed and cares for the breed a snob! Breeders who do not breed to standard are the reason we get many many posts asking if there dog looks like a pure yorkie and they are also the reason we have so many yorkies that look nothing like yorkies. But you did not answer my questions and that's the real best and less controversial way to know if it's a good breeder or not. What is the health guarantee like? How far back does she know the lines? Is there a spay and neuter contract? It's not the snobs looking for these tiny little yorkies but uneducated buyers.

[gemy]

Taylor there are more than a few Yorkies who have earned a USA championship with an undocked tail.


Change is coming even into the USA scene. And even in my Black Russian Breed - they earn USA championships with undocked tails. You can see my gal competing in the USA Nationals and she was not the only Blackie with a long tail. And the USA standard still calls for a docked tail.


There is no DQ disqualification to show an undocked Yorkie Tail - there is only a DQ on color. This means they will be judged and an undocked tail might result dependant on the judge with a fault but not a DQ.


This is a very hot issue in the show world. Personally I like the looks of a tail reasonably docked but also love the long tail as well.


In Canada we have changed all standards to make clear an undocked tail is allowed and NOT to be Penalized for it in the show ring.


So I can not disagree more that no reputable show breeder would leave a tail intact. And many big name breeders do just that. Many want to compete in the World Stage where many many many countries docking is illegal and banned.

[ColesMommy01]

Hi Kay!

I completely understand your sentiments regarding English Bulldogs. I have one myself who's nothing but a big gassy baby. The standard is terrible imo for bulldogs. It basically sets them up for failure. Most bulldogs have to have c sections, can't swim, can't be in the heat for long (and I'm talking high 70's low 80's what's considered nice weather), allergies out the butt, cherry eye, etc. I love the breed but I would NEVER own another. Luckily we received ours from an excellent breeder and haven't had any issues other than a newspaper ink allergy.

[gemy]

Also once again I'd like to correct the misunderstanding about buying a puppy from a show breeder. You don't do this to get a SHOW Dog - you a non breeder would be highly unlikely to be allowed to purchase a show dog, but to support the breeders who are charged with and have the passion and courage and discipline to support the Standard of the Breed.
As a show breeder you have excellent breed knowledge, puppy rearing, whelping and care of your breeding dogs/ You know your lines, and just as importantly do the health testing, you are familiar with at least the top 10 most common Yorkie conditions.


We make a silent pledge to do our darndest to leave this breed better than we found it.

[ColesMommy01]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I don't necessarily agree with the breed standards and many dogs are poorly effected by them but reputable breeders have to breed to standard that's just how it is. I think your comment that only puppy mills, or snobs or showers worry about the standard is very off and show not a lot of knowledge on this. Puppy mills don't care if the dogs are bred to standard or if the dogs are healthy and taken care of, I'm thinking you do not know what a puppy mill is so please do some googling. People who care about this breed and love this breed care about the standard. That whole snob statement is very rude. As I sit here with my 17 pound floppy eared could not be further from the standard yorkie on my lap who came from a puppy mill I wounder what the heck is going on where people call someone who loves the breed and cares for the breed a snob! Breeders who do not breed to standard are the reason we get many many posts asking if there dog looks like a pure yorkie and they are also the reason we have so many yorkies that look nothing like yorkies. But you did not answer my questions and that's the real best and less controversial way to know if it's a good breeder or not. What is the health guarantee like? How far back does she know the lines? Is there a spay and neuter contract? It's not the snobs looking for these tiny little yorkies but uneducated buyers.

I'm not a breeder and I like both the full and docked tails, but a tail or lack thereof does not make a yorkie or signify one's breeder is reputable. *I know breeders dock tails around 3 days old since I was told the nerves/pain receptors arent fully functioning. But not all breeders follow the American standard for docking and are otherwise considered reputable.

[ColesMommy01]

Originally Posted by gemy

Also once again I'd like to correct the misunderstanding about buying a puppy from a show breeder. You don't do this to get a SHOW Dog - you a non breeder would be highly unlikely to be allowed to purchase a show dog, but to support the breeders who are charged with and have the passion and courage and discipline to support the Standard of the Breed.
As a show breeder you have excellent breed knowledge, puppy rearing, whelping and care of your breeding dogs/ You know your lines, and just as importantly do the health testing, you are familiar with at least the top 10 most common Yorkie conditions.


We make a silent pledge to do our darndest to leave this breed better than we found it.

[DBlain]

Kay you sound very knowledgeable about dogs and what you are looking for in pup, so I am sure you will make the right choice when selecting a puppy.

Please keep in mind that YT is comprised of a large pool of people from all walks of life, different ages and most surely different experiences. Some experience life first hand, some from behind a computer, I hope you stick around during and after your puppy search because I can tell you have the makings of a valuable member, and in a short time you will be able to sort through the members that you want advice from and those you don't.

[ColesMommy01]

Originally Posted by DBlain

Kay you sound very knowledgeable about dogs and what you are looking for in pup, so I am sure you will make the right choice when selecting a puppy.

Please keep in mind that YT is comprised of a large pool of people from all walks of life, different ages and most surely different experiences. Some experience life first hand, some from behind a computer, I hope you stick around during and after your puppy search because I can tell you have the makings of a valuable member, and in a short time you will be able to sort through the members that you want advice from and those you don't.

This, all day. So have you decided which pup you'll be getting Kay? We want pics!

[Lovetodream88]

Ok you all win I'm just a snobby mean nasty terrible yorkie owner who obviously knows nothing. My opinion does not matter and never should. Sorry for the inconvence. Sorry again.

[matese]

Originally Posted by DBlain

Kay you sound very knowledgeable about dogs and what you are looking for in pup, so I am sure you will make the right choice when selecting a puppy.

Please keep in mind that YT is comprised of a large pool of people from all walks of life, different ages and most surely different experiences. Some experience life first hand, some from behind a computer, I hope you stick around during and after your puppy search because I can tell you have the makings of a valuable member, and in a short time you will be able to sort through the members that you want advice from and those you don't.