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Old 06-20-2013, 07:35 AM   #1
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Default ICKC Showing Biewers and Parti-Yorkies

Can anyone who shows their dogs with ICKC (NAKC) explain how this venue differenciates showing a Biewer and a Parti-Yorkie as seperate breeds when Parti breeders say Biewers and Partis are one in the same? I would like to show my Biewer Terrier.
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:21 AM   #2
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ICKC recognizes Biewers, Yorkies, Golddust and Biros to be shown as separate breeds yet I see on some peoples websites that these dogs are coming out of the same litter! How is that possible, litter mates but different breeds??? Very credible I see. HA!
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:32 AM   #3
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Bumping so this gets seen. You might post this in the breeders section, or the showing section.

Welcome to YT! Hope you can find the answers you need!
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:52 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by BWRTerrierFan View Post
ICKC recognizes Biewers, Yorkies, Golddust and Biros to be shown as separate breeds yet I see on some peoples websites that these dogs are coming out of the same litter! How is that possible, litter mates but different breeds??? Very credible I see. HA!
These ARE all Yorkies....Bottom line is Mr.Biewer had to have his Yorkies with their new color pattern (Biewers) registered in a separate registery as a different breed, so they COULD be registered, and shown, and not considered a fault by the AKC. He wanted his beautiful Yorkies to be accepted by AKC as a color variation, and given the blessings of the AKC, and since that was not going to be done, he had to go/have another registery to register his dogs. He had to register them as a separate breed so they woulkd not be considered "faults" of inferior. They were called Beiwers, but they are Yorkies with a color gene "fault"....(I use the word fault just because that was the reason they could not be registered, AND THEN SHOWN, in the AKC registery/sanctioned events.) Many people want to call these dogs two different breeds, but they are NOT! I personally spoke with Mr.Biewer back in the '90s when I was thinking about purchasing a breeding pair from him and bringing them to Texas....I just was not sure there was a "market" for these Yorkies, and it was going to be VERY expensive to do this, so I did not follow through....they were developed from two traditional Yorkies and because of the "color fault", they could not be registered or shown. But he stressed to me "they ARE purebred Yorkies, out of purebred Yorkies, with a color deviation".

Last edited by Yorkiemom1; 06-20-2013 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:36 AM   #5
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Thank you for your opinion of the history. I have read and heard this as one of the theories among other theories as well since there really is no way to completely fact check this theory. Many believe Mr. Biewer either intentionally bred something else in or his dogs had something else bred in before he got that line. Also some say along the way other breeds were introduced to yorkies and then bred into the Biewer offspring. And these new colors? These Biro's and Golddust coming from the same litter but registered and shown as a separate breed, what about these??
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:37 AM   #6
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These ARE all Yorkies....Bottom line is Mr.Biewer had to have his Yorkies with their new color pattern (Biewers) registered in a separate registery as a different breed, so they COULD be registered, and shown, and not considered a fault by the AKC. He wanted his beautiful Yorkies to be accepted by AKC as a color variation, and given the blessings of the AKC, and since that was not going to be done, he had to go/have another registery to register his dogs. He had to register them as a separate breed so they woulkd not be considered "faults" of inferior. They were called Beiwers, but they are Yorkies with a color gene "fault"....(I use the word fault just because that was the reason they could not be registered, AND THEN SHOWN, in the AKC registery/sanctioned events.) Many people want to call these dogs two different breeds, but they are NOT! I personally spoke with Mr.Biewer back in the '90s when I was thinking about purchasing a breeding pair from him and bringing them to Texas....I just was not sure there was a "market" for these Yorkies, and it was going to be VERY expensive to do this, so I did not follow through....they were developed from two traditional Yorkies and because of the "color fault", they could not be registered or shown. But he stressed to me "they ARE purebred Yorkies, out of purebred Yorkies, with a color deviation".
Thank you for your opinion of the history. I have read and heard this as one of the theories among other theories as well since there really is no way to completely fact check this theory. Many believe Mr. Biewer either intentionally bred something else in or his dogs had something else bred in before he got that line. Also some say along the way other breeds were introduced to yorkies and then bred into the Biewer offspring. And these new colors? These Biro's and Golddust coming from the same litter but registered and shown as a separate breed, what about these??
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:50 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by BWRTerrierFan View Post
Thank you for your opinion of the history. I have read and heard this as one of the theories among other theories as well since there really is no way to completely fact check this theory. Many believe Mr. Biewer either intentionally bred something else in or his dogs had something else bred in before he got that line. Also some say along the way other breeds were introduced to yorkies and then bred into the Biewer offspring. And these new colors? These Biro's and Golddust coming from the same litter but registered and shown as a separate breed, what about these??
Not "theory"....unless Mr.Biewer actually lied about his breeding program to me, I got this straight from the "horse's mouth"...not supposition, or theory, but fact! Now if he was lying, which I can not believe he would be doing back in the 90's, as far as I am concerned, this is gospel, straight from the breeder that originated the breed!
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:57 AM   #8
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I needed to add a couple of words and ran out of time...so I reposted here....
Not "opinion" or "theory"....unless Mr.Biewer actually lied about his breeding program to me, I got this straight from the "horse's mouth"...not supposition, not my opinion, my theory, my hypothesis, but fact, as told to me by Mr Biewer! Now if he was lying, which I can not believe he would be doing back in the 90's, as far as I am concerned, this is gospel, straight from the breeder that registered his "color faulted" Yorkies, and why he did it like he did! He was not ashamed of his beautiful colored Yorkies and he did not want them to be known as "faulted" Yorkies.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:05 AM   #9
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I needed to add a couple of words and ran out of time...so I reposted here....
Not "opinion" or "theory"....unless Mr.Biewer actually lied about his breeding program to me, I got this straight from the "horse's mouth"...not supposition, not my opinion, my theory, my hypothesis, but fact, as told to me by Mr Biewer! Now if he was lying, which I can not believe he would be doing back in the 90's, as far as I am concerned, this is gospel, straight from the breeder that registered his "color faulted" Yorkies, and why he did it like he did! He was not ashamed of his beautiful colored Yorkies and he did not want them to be known as "faulted" Yorkies.

Hearing it from a breeder does NOT make fact, as many breeders are guilty of falsifying paperwork and pedigrees. AKC has suspended people for this very reason, read their minutes. Mr. Biewer could have done the same but assuming Mr. Biewer was honest there is still the theory that his dogs had "oops" behind them. The FACT is that there is no proof that these are pure yorkies but there IS PROOF that the Biewers have DNA in them that came from other breeds, the MARS study.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:11 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by BWRTerrierFan View Post
Hearing it from a breeder does NOT make fact, as many breeders are guilty of falsifying paperwork and pedigrees. AKC has suspended people for this very reason, read their minutes. Mr. Biewer could have done the same but assuming Mr. Biewer was honest there is still the theory that his dogs had "oops" behind them. The FACT is that there is no proof that these are pure yorkies but there IS PROOF that the Biewers have DNA in them that came from other breeds, the MARS study.
Agreed. For the benefit of others who have not seen the other thread, there is an ongoing discussion of the DNA testing of Biewers here:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...vs-biewer.html
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:31 AM   #11
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Since I have no dog in this fight, and could really be less concerned what everyone wants to say how these dogs originated, and since I was concerned about the controversy about this breed from the very get go, which is why I steered way clear, I will leave the debate to all those that are concerned for whatever reason, to carry on like it has for the last 15+ years! One little question....was it the MARS test that said that YT poster's little dog was a purebred Yorkie, you remember, the one that no one thought looked like a Yorkie at all? As adorable as that baby was, a lot of people were stunned and amazed with those results.......I couldnt agree more...we all know breeders will lie about what they are producing....but I still will go with Mr.Biewer and his explanation.....I feel it is just as valid as anything anyone else that comes up with their own theory or opinion. Until the data base for DNA testing has improved and enlarged and the testing is obviously more accurate, I will take Mr.Biewer at his word.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:37 PM   #12
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Since I have no dog in this fight, and could really be less concerned what everyone wants to say how these dogs originated, and since I was concerned about the controversy about this breed from the very get go, which is why I steered way clear, I will leave the debate to all those that are concerned for whatever reason, to carry on like it has for the last 15+ years! One little question....was it the MARS test that said that YT poster's little dog was a purebred Yorkie, you remember, the one that no one thought looked like a Yorkie at all? As adorable as that baby was, a lot of people were stunned and amazed with those results.......I couldnt agree more...we all know breeders will lie about what they are producing....but I still will go with Mr.Biewer and his explanation.....I feel it is just as valid as anything anyone else that comes up with their own theory or opinion. Until the data base for DNA testing has improved and enlarged and the testing is obviously more accurate, I will take Mr.Biewer at his word.
Yes, it was the MARS test that said that Minnie was a purebred Yorkshire Terrier. But to be fair, the PCA part of the analysis showed her to be on the "edge" of the Yorkie group, and she is clearly off-type in appearance.

There is room for improvement in the MARS test, but some of the Biewer results are so different from Yorkie results that there is no other logical explanation than them being the result of crossbreeding to another dog breed early in the development of the Biewer, whether accidental or intentional. And there is no other likely explanation for the origin of the piebald color gene in the Biewer.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:59 PM   #13
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Thank You Yorkiemom1 .. I too choose to go along with you, someone who has actually spoken directly to Mr. Biewer. How fortunate we are to have you as a reference. You have nothing to prove, nothing to gain. Your story has not deviated one bit since you first told it and I don't believe Mr Biewers did either .

Thanks for your input.

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Old 06-21-2013, 01:05 PM   #14
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as far as showing goes.. I show my Parti's as Parti yorkies, my Biewers as Biewers with ICKC.. IABCA does not accept the AKC Part so I just show my Biewers with them.

The Gold Dust I believe can show with Both venues but I am not certain as I do not show or breed them.

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Old 06-21-2013, 01:11 PM   #15
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Yeah, but while there is always a chance of human error, intentional or not, I can't dispute the SCIENCE.

The pie-bald gene did not originate in Mr. Biewer's yorkies. See the recent thread on Partis v. Biewer.

That thread was enlightening.

Tracey
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