Why 12 Weeks?

[Rhetts_mama]

I've seen a couple of comments here along the lines of puppies and children being cuter and more desirable at younger ages than slightly older. I would have to say that if that is a criteria in why you are bringing one home when you do, then perhaps a stuffed animal would be a better idea. That way it will stay little and cute forever. If you can't "bond" with an older child or dog, then the problem lies more with you than them.

As to whether one "believes" a pup is healthier at 12 weeks versus 8, one only has to look at basic biology. Specifically, the age at which the natural immunity passed from dam to pup starts to vanish. At 8 weeks, the immunity conferred during gestation and nursing has all but vanished and the pups are still too young to be immunized safely or effectively- that leaves them vulnerable to a whole host of potentially deadly diseases. Lets face it, MOST pet owners don't take the advice of keeping the pups away from public access until they are full immunized. At 12 weeks, their immune system is at least minimally responsive to vaccines.

In addition, the incidence of hypoglycemia decreases with the maturation of the body's ability to maintain glucose homeostasis. Part of that process is the availability of body fat to convert to glucose. The larger the pup, the better the process (baring any other underlying diseases).

Liver shunts are another problem with this breed. The minimum age for getting base line testing is 16 weeks. An experienced breeder is cognizant of the signs and symptoms of liver shunts and MVD that can appear in younger pups.

The socialization issues have already been well covered here.

Can a pup be brought home safely before 12 weeks? Yes. But just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done if it's not in the best interest of the dog to do it.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

I've seen a couple of comments here along the lines of puppies and children being cuter and more desirable at younger ages than slightly older. I would have to say that if that is a criteria in why you are bringing one home when you do, then perhaps a stuffed animal would be a better idea. That way it will stay little and cute forever. If you can't "bond" with an older child or dog, then the problem lies more with you than them.

As to whether one "believes" a pup is healthier at 12 weeks versus 8, one only has to look at basic biology. Specifically, the age at which the natural immunity passed from dam to pup starts to vanish. At 8 weeks, the immunity conferred during gestation and nursing has all but vanished and the pups are still too young to be immunized safely or effectively- that leaves them vulnerable to a whole host of potentially deadly diseases. Lets face it, MOST pet owners don't take the advice of keeping the pups away from public access until they are full immunized. At 12 weeks, their immune system is at least minimally responsive to vaccines.

In addition, the incidence of hypoglycemia decreases with the maturation of the body's ability to maintain glucose homeostasis. Part of that process is the availability of body fat to convert to glucose. The larger the pup, the better the process (baring any other underlying diseases).

Liver shunts are another problem with this breed. The minimum age for getting base line testing is 16 weeks. An experienced breeder is cognizant of the signs and symptoms of liver shunts and MVD that can appear in younger pups.

The socialization issues have already been well covered here.

Can a pup be brought home safely before 12 weeks? Yes. But just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done if it's not in the best interest of the dog to do it.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

I've seen a couple of comments here along the lines of puppies and children being cuter and more desirable at younger ages than slightly older. I would have to say that if that is a criteria in why you are bringing one home when you do, then perhaps a stuffed animal would be a better idea. That way it will stay little and cute forever. If you can't "bond" with an older child or dog, then the problem lies more with you than them.

As a mother myself thank you for your comment!
I find the correlation here undeniably relevant

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by KazzyK810

Isn't that why a breeder interviews prospective owners...to ensure that the pup is going to a good home where it will receive competent care? If a person can't handle caring for a young puppy, how do they handle a sick or injured dog should that arise in the future? I'd suggest that if the breeder lacks confidence in the prospective owner's ability to adequately care for a young puppy, they should either educate & provide support to the future owner, or withold the pup until they find a better qualified prospective owner.

Well now, that's really subjection as to the quality of the breeder now isn't it?

[Taryn0405]

Alright, I can't sit on my hands any longer...

Ladies, this is nonsense. I honestly don't think this is a serious question, nor poster for that matter. For someone to claim they are an experienced breeder, and then to ask questions like this regarding age, and previous ones like genetics is bogus to me. The mere fact that this is causing us to argue I think is the real objective.

We all have our experience with dogs, and have offered multiple breeder findings, personal experiences, etc as proof, yet we get this text book length excuse from the OP as to why it isn't good enough. Anyone else bull*hit alarm going off? Don't fall into the trap of appeasing the OP further and fueling the fire. If you look at previous posts, this same type of drama seemed to happen over I believe it was something as petty as Parti Genetics.

To the OP, you seem to have an answer to all of our suggestions. If you know it all, and that's what it seems from the eye gouging length of your responses, then what's the point of asking the question in the first place? You seem to have another agenda besides just asking these simple easily googled answered questions. Maybe that agenda is making us all get our eyes test after being subjected to an overly repetitive, and subjective and condescending explanation to everything we post.

Like I said fellow YT'ers. Don't appease this OP and thread any longer by arguing. It, like this thread, seems to be pointless.

[Belle Noir]

Originally Posted by Deuce

OP...it seems like you're being difficult on purpose, you are aware of all the reasons breeders of small dogs don't release their pups until 12 weeks (reputable ones anyway). So what do you hope to accomplish here? Has there been studies officially published in dog magazines proving that a pup is less prone to diseases, and are better socialized, probably not. Why not attend dog shows and talk to breeders who can explain it better than us, since you're just going to have a "smart" comeback for everyone who responds here.

I am breaking my own train of replies to respond to you.
I HAVE asked breeders, and I am asking again. You don't like it, bully on you. How am I being difficult? Because I don't accept what is spoon fed to me when I have, and I will say it again, twenty years of breeding and showing experience under my collar and a wall of ribbons and trophies to reminisce on.
Just because YOU don't know me, doesn't mean I am NOT known in my breed.

I like how having a rational explanation as to my experience in this matter is a "smart" come back.

I am sure MANY people here have puppies that were brought home before 12 weeks with no issues, and though I only got to page 3 trying to see where I ended, NO ONE, answered the question of the tragic orphaned singleton pup.
Please, I KNOW it has happened. So what was the disposition of said pup? I'll even go for singleton pup. QUITE common in a toy breed.

I am having a nice discussion with a few people and sure as sun, there is always going to be one or few of you that either don't care how rude you sound, or have no idea.
I'm going for don't care.

Guess what, I don't care if your feathers are ruffled by my questions. I am going to ask them, because this isn't your sandbox. You think I'm being difficult and you don't like what I have to say, do us both a favor and ignore me, and this goes for everyone else that has difficulties with me asking the questions that I ask, because frankly I'm a bit tired of seeing the same names that time and time again attacking me and others who DARE break with status quo and question things we either don't know, aren't sure of, or that makes no sense to us.

If you don't get that I am trying to understand how Yorkies are different from the dogs I raised and showed, that's not my problem, it's yours.

You go on and follow the because we say so routine, I have not, and I never will, I want more than just that, I want to know WHY it's being said so.
I have already said I understand and agree with the HEALTH reasons, but I guess that's not good enough for you, because I won't bow down to the hierarchy that gives the OTHER reasons that makes no sense to me.

I asked this question without looking for OTHER information than MY OWN experience, but you know what SCIENCE says?

The scientific tests at Hamilton Station have show that it is advantageous for a puppy to remain with the litter long enough to acquire a little competitive spirit, but that too much is detrimental to the puppy's emotional growth. The pups that remain in the litter after the seventh week will begin to develop bullish or cowed tendencies - which will remain with them into adulthood. The longer a puppy remains with the litter after completing the seventh week of its life, the more deteriorated the emotional growth of that puppy will be.

Wow, so much for it being good for the puppy. By the way, the Hamilton Station mentioned is the one in Bar Harbor, Maine, at the Jackson Laboratory.

The trainability of a puppy is ripe and operating to capacity as the puppy enters the eight week of life. Thus, the puppy enters the fourth critical period of emotional growth (50 to 84 days). What the puppy learns during the fourth critical period will be retained and become part of the dog's personality. If a puppy is left with its mother during the fourth critical period, its emotional development will be crippled. The puppy will remain dependent upon her, but in her will find very little - if any - security.

When a puppy remains with the litter beyond this time - and without adequate human contact - its social adjustment to human society will be crippled, and what it learns will be learned from the litter mates. The optimum time for taking a puppy into a new household is at the conclusion of the puppy's seventh week.

Because a pup's trainability and learning facilities are operating at full capacity during the fourth critical period, it is better that a puppy do his learning from his new owner. And learn he will! The fourth critical period marks a time when a new puppy will learn at a fast and furious pace. And much of what he learns will stay with him a long, long time. What the puppy learns during the fourth critical period will help to shape him into the kind of dog he will be forevermore!

AlsoThe fifth critical period is the 13th, through the 16th week of a puppy's life. A highly significant thing will happen during the fifth critical period, and puppy owners should be prepared for it. A puppy will make its first attempt to establish itself as the dominant being in the pack (family). It is during the fifth period that a puppy will learn whether he can physically strike out at his owner - and get away with it!

If a puppy is allowed to get away with it, he will lose the confidence and the respect for the owner that developed during the fourth critical period. The tolerance level toward the owner will be narrowed. The puppy will learn that by rebelling he'll get things his own way. It is during this fifth critical period that authority will be challenged. It is here that the challenge must be met head on by the pup's owner.
Hmmmm... I wonder about that.. How many dominate type dogs were sent home at 12 weeks, and because they were soooo adorable and cute, got away with being nippy, and turned into nasty buggers.
This falls inline with what I said before about people who spoil their dogs, and it is so hard not to spoil an adorable puppy, but once you've had them for a bit, the shine wears, and it's easier to discipline them, sweet face or not.

These excepts were taken in part from Complete Dog training Manual by Bruce Session.

Also interesting to point out that Guide Dog puppies are sent to their homes at 8 weeks, and guide dogs are among if not THE most highly socialized and trained dogs there are.

So in my opinion, ASIDE from the HEALTH benefits that have been pointed out regarding tooth eruption, shots, and the dangers of hypoglycemia, the reasons given do not make sense with regards to socialization, house training, bite inhibition and so forth.
And my opinion is based, NOW, not just on my personal experience, but also on proven scientific FACT.

Thank you got getting me angry enough to look for this information to debunk the reasons given. I prefered to come to this question as open minded as my experience in dogs allowed, and not look for anything to back my opinion, but I'm glad I did.

Point of fact, IF I should ever get another Yorkie, I will actually most likely, get an OLDER puppy based on the HEALTH reasons, but I won't be worried about any socialization aspect given, since behaviorally, a puppy is a puppy is a puppy, no matter what the breed. And that has been scientifically proven.

How is that for a smart come back?


To those who were polite in your replies, I thank you, and I would apologize for stooping to the level of rudeness shown me if it didn't feel so good getting it out after holding my tongue as much as I have.
But I am sorry that I had to even go there.
It's sad that a place that is supposed to be friendly and welcoming is ONLY friendly and welcoming to those who don't question answers given by those who feel threatened by that questioning.
It's sad that there are many people that quietly thank me for my questions and my replies privately... Because they're AFRAID of how some other members will act towards them.

I'm going to take a couple days off, I'm afraid that my temper is not at it's best. And when I return, I'll gladly reply to the rest of the posts here, but privately, since I am tired of being attacked by a small but vocal group who likes to make pointed veiled barbs aimed at putting me in my place.

Those of you that see my questioning, not as pot stirring, trouble making, pushing an agenda, or being difficult, but see it for what it is, someone that is looking for a REAL answer to my questions. Thank you.

[concretegurl]

Consider the subjects: Can you post links for your research please I believe I have read one of them and it was specific to a few large breeds only...
obviously a study specified to large breeds and specific large breeds with specific needs would NOT apply to Yorkies.

Consider the time: I read a study last night that said it was better to marry at the age of 15 it increases happiness...it was from 1944...then in the 50's the government started releasing wait to get married propaganda films

Dailymotion - 1950 - Are You Ready for Marriage Government Propaganda - a Funny video

I LOVE this video below!
Check this out duck and cover when there's drama, if you duck and cover an atomic bomb won't kill you...
Dailymotion - Duck And Cover 1951 Government Propaganda - a News & Politics video

Consider the sponsor:I read another study just discussed on the 700 club stating women who consume vitamin on a daily basis die earlier than woman who do not-it was a sponsored by a well known pharmaceutical company. The study that compare women with heart desire taking vitamins to women who are other wise health and whom do not take vitamins daily

Consider the source: I read a study stating breast milk was the most toxic substance on the plant and that formula being purified is therefore less toxic for infants. The study was not independent an was done by a go figure infant formula company.


QUOTE from Belle Noir: "So in my opinion, ASIDE from the HEALTH benefits that have been pointed out regarding tooth eruption, shots, and the dangers of hypoglycemia, the reasons given do not make sense with regards to socialization, house training, bite inhibition and so forth."
Why do you need anything beyond health reasoning?
If you don't understand the behavioral impact in socialization well no one can create the ability of another to critically understand things.

[concretegurl]

Oh and there are those studies by Dr's and even by to attorney generals stating smoking cigarettes are good for your health...I'm done.

[Ringo1]

Originally Posted by KazzyK810

Isn't that why a breeder interviews prospective owners...to ensure that the pup is going to a good home where it will receive competent care? If a person can't handle caring for a young puppy, how do they handle a sick or injured dog should that arise in the future? I'd suggest that if the breeder lacks confidence in the prospective owner's ability to adequately care for a young puppy, they should either educate & provide support to the future owner, or withold the pup until they find a better qualified prospective owner.

Kazzy,

Perhaps they should ~ but many don't.

Spend a little time in the Sick and Injured forum. Many little pups in the wrong hands just do not make it. Whose fault is it? The buyer or the breeder?

I would love to NOT read so many of these threads ~ but they are there and they are heartbreaking.

If it's such a novel idea ~ why do so many reputable breeders suscribe to it? Guess they must just not know what they are doing.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Belle Noir

I am breaking my own train of replies to respond to you.
I HAVE asked breeders, and I am asking again. You don't like it, bully on you. How am I being difficult? Because I don't accept what is spoon fed to me when I have, and I will say it again, twenty years of breeding and showing experience under my collar and a wall of ribbons and trophies to reminisce on.
Just because YOU don't know me, doesn't mean I am NOT known in my breed.

I like how having a rational explanation as to my experience in this matter is a "smart" come back.

I am sure MANY people here have puppies that were brought home before 12 weeks with no issues, and though I only got to page 3 trying to see where I ended, NO ONE, answered the question of the tragic orphaned singleton pup.
Please, I KNOW it has happened. So what was the disposition of said pup? I'll even go for singleton pup. QUITE common in a toy breed.

I am having a nice discussion with a few people and sure as sun, there is always going to be one or few of you that either don't care how rude you sound, or have no idea.
I'm going for don't care.

Guess what, I don't care if your feathers are ruffled by my questions. I am going to ask them, because this isn't your sandbox. You think I'm being difficult and you don't like what I have to say, do us both a favor and ignore me, and this goes for everyone else that has difficulties with me asking the questions that I ask, because frankly I'm a bit tired of seeing the same names that time and time again attacking me and others who DARE break with status quo and question things we either don't know, aren't sure of, or that makes no sense to us.

If you don't get that I am trying to understand how Yorkies are different from the dogs I raised and showed, that's not my problem, it's yours.

You go on and follow the because we say so routine, I have not, and I never will, I want more than just that, I want to know WHY it's being said so.
I have already said I understand and agree with the HEALTH reasons, but I guess that's not good enough for you, because I won't bow down to the hierarchy that gives the OTHER reasons that makes no sense to me.

I asked this question without looking for OTHER information than MY OWN experience, but you know what SCIENCE says?

The scientific tests at Hamilton Station have show that it is advantageous for a puppy to remain with the litter long enough to acquire a little competitive spirit, but that too much is detrimental to the puppy's emotional growth. The pups that remain in the litter after the seventh week will begin to develop bullish or cowed tendencies - which will remain with them into adulthood. The longer a puppy remains with the litter after completing the seventh week of its life, the more deteriorated the emotional growth of that puppy will be.

Wow, so much for it being good for the puppy. By the way, the Hamilton Station mentioned is the one in Bar Harbor, Maine, at the Jackson Laboratory.

The trainability of a puppy is ripe and operating to capacity as the puppy enters the eight week of life. Thus, the puppy enters the fourth critical period of emotional growth (50 to 84 days). What the puppy learns during the fourth critical period will be retained and become part of the dog's personality. If a puppy is left with its mother during the fourth critical period, its emotional development will be crippled. The puppy will remain dependent upon her, but in her will find very little - if any - security.

When a puppy remains with the litter beyond this time - and without adequate human contact - its social adjustment to human society will be crippled, and what it learns will be learned from the litter mates. The optimum time for taking a puppy into a new household is at the conclusion of the puppy's seventh week.

Because a pup's trainability and learning facilities are operating at full capacity during the fourth critical period, it is better that a puppy do his learning from his new owner. And learn he will! The fourth critical period marks a time when a new puppy will learn at a fast and furious pace. And much of what he learns will stay with him a long, long time. What the puppy learns during the fourth critical period will help to shape him into the kind of dog he will be forevermore!

AlsoThe fifth critical period is the 13th, through the 16th week of a puppy's life. A highly significant thing will happen during the fifth critical period, and puppy owners should be prepared for it. A puppy will make its first attempt to establish itself as the dominant being in the pack (family). It is during the fifth period that a puppy will learn whether he can physically strike out at his owner - and get away with it!

If a puppy is allowed to get away with it, he will lose the confidence and the respect for the owner that developed during the fourth critical period. The tolerance level toward the owner will be narrowed. The puppy will learn that by rebelling he'll get things his own way. It is during this fifth critical period that authority will be challenged. It is here that the challenge must be met head on by the pup's owner.
Hmmmm... I wonder about that.. How many dominate type dogs were sent home at 12 weeks, and because they were soooo adorable and cute, got away with being nippy, and turned into nasty buggers.
This falls inline with what I said before about people who spoil their dogs, and it is so hard not to spoil an adorable puppy, but once you've had them for a bit, the shine wears, and it's easier to discipline them, sweet face or not.

These excepts were taken in part from Complete Dog training Manual by Bruce Session.

Also interesting to point out that Guide Dog puppies are sent to their homes at 8 weeks, and guide dogs are among if not THE most highly socialized and trained dogs there are.

So in my opinion, ASIDE from the HEALTH benefits that have been pointed out regarding tooth eruption, shots, and the dangers of hypoglycemia, the reasons given do not make sense with regards to socialization, house training, bite inhibition and so forth.
And my opinion is based, NOW, not just on my personal experience, but also on proven scientific FACT.

Thank you got getting me angry enough to look for this information to debunk the reasons given. I prefered to come to this question as open minded as my experience in dogs allowed, and not look for anything to back my opinion, but I'm glad I did.

Point of fact, IF I should ever get another Yorkie, I will actually most likely, get an OLDER puppy based on the HEALTH reasons, but I won't be worried about any socialization aspect given, since behaviorally, a puppy is a puppy is a puppy, no matter what the breed. And that has been scientifically proven.

How is that for a smart come back?


To those who were polite in your replies, I thank you, and I would apologize for stooping to the level of rudeness shown me if it didn't feel so good getting it out after holding my tongue as much as I have.
But I am sorry that I had to even go there.
It's sad that a place that is supposed to be friendly and welcoming is ONLY friendly and welcoming to those who don't question answers given by those who feel threatened by that questioning.
It's sad that there are many people that quietly thank me for my questions and my replies privately... Because they're AFRAID of how some other members will act towards them.

I'm going to take a couple days off, I'm afraid that my temper is not at it's best. And when I return, I'll gladly reply to the rest of the posts here, but privately, since I am tired of being attacked by a small but vocal group who likes to make pointed veiled barbs aimed at putting me in my place.

Those of you that see my questioning, not as pot stirring, trouble making, pushing an agenda, or being difficult, but see it for what it is, someone that is looking for a REAL answer to my questions. Thank you.

I didn't read that hole post above.......... It was not really your question that bothered me it was the fact that you called mother dogs greedy hags. The fact that you can look at a mother dog and say that after all the work they do and apparently have no connection with the mother dog and say you where a breeder really upsets me and makes me feel bad for any dogs you breed. Small breeds are different the large breeds and whether you chose to believe that or not it is a fact large breeds grow and mature faster then smaller breeds.

[chachi]

I dont read your novel sized posts. I read the first and the last paragragh, You really need to get to the point and not be so wordy. But I have read and saw enough that I know you just want to debate for debate sake. The problem with that is when we post something on here we are not just posting to the OP we are posting to everyone who is on this forum reading some members some guests. When they see you going against the logic of reputable breeders and the breed club they think well I really like to have my puppy at the earliest age possible, I like them when they are tiny and cute and I dont see anything wrong with it either. That kind of thinking is not in the pet owner or pets best interest and its been discussed on this thread many times why not. Its like I said in my earlier post if you had been on this forum any length of time and saw the problems members have because of bringing home a pup too young you would have a whole other outlook.

[roseylovestosho]

"So in my opinion, ASIDE from the HEALTH benefits that have been pointed out regarding tooth eruption, shots, and the dangers of hypoglycemia, the reasons given do not make sense with regards to socialization, house training, bite inhibition and so forth."

Okay, so only consider the health benefits. End of discussion.

[Belle Noir]

Originally Posted by Taryn0405

Alright, I can't sit on my hands any longer...

Ladies, this is nonsense. I honestly don't think this is a serious question, nor poster for that matter. For someone to claim they are an experienced breeder, and then to ask questions like this regarding age, and previous ones like genetics is bogus to me. The mere fact that this is causing us to argue I think is the real objective.

We all have our experience with dogs, and have offered multiple breeder findings, personal experiences, etc as proof, yet we get this text book length excuse from the OP as to why it isn't good enough. Anyone else bull*hit alarm going off? Don't fall into the trap of appeasing the OP further and fueling the fire. If you look at previous posts, this same type of drama seemed to happen over I believe it was something as petty as Parti Genetics.

To the OP, you seem to have an answer to all of our suggestions. If you know it all, and that's what it seems from the eye gouging length of your responses, then what's the point of asking the question in the first place? You seem to have another agenda besides just asking these simple easily googled answered questions. Maybe that agenda is making us all get our eyes test after being subjected to an overly repetitive, and subjective and condescending explanation to everything we post.

Like I said fellow YT'ers. Don't appease this OP and thread any longer by arguing. It, like this thread, seems to be pointless.

If you are going to malign me, get your facts straight.
And please, shall we be adults and keep the personal attacks to a minimum?
I NEVER asked ANYTHING about parti coats. I asked what the genetic make up of the "born gold" yorkies was, as, IF you know your genetics, there are several "yellow" genes.
I wanted to know where the born golds got their color, as opposed to the sables, and I was answered.. AFTER being attacked for DARING to ask a question that had NOT been answered. I say again,, I could be wrong, but NONE of the threads I read on this forum and NONE of the wensites I visited said ANYTHING about ee being the cause of the born gold Yorkie.
So if there was petty drama over me asking where did the born gold yorkies came from, it was NOT from me.

And again with the agenda nonsense?
You don't like the length of my posts, don't read them, simple as that. Why should I have to explain that it is considered proper netiquette where I typically roam to multi quote when answering several people, so as not to flood the forum.
And why is having a lot to say on a subject such a crime? Why are some of you so threatened by a well thought out response? Because I don't give pithy little jabs and stand back, but explain my position, and then... oh horrors, back what I say by FACTUAL proof, and not clouded opinion.
I am even willing to CHANGE my opinion, and at the same time, am not expecting anyont to change theirs, and I have the nerve to be respectful of others opinions even if I disagree. I am such the troll, aren't I?

The POINT of asking the question was there in my first post.. If you weren't so kindly refraining from attacking me because I posted something you didn't like again, perhaps you would have seen it.

I have heard reasons that people give for not sending the puppy home until 12 weeks, and to be really honest, the only one that makes sense is that toys have a greater chance of hypoglycemic episodes until about 16 weeks, give or take

I was looking for other health related reasons, because NONE of the posts I found said anything about the HEALTH related reasons EXCEPT for hypoglycemic episodes. All of them touted socialization and behavioral aspects that didn't make sense to me. And when I did further research still didn't make sense. Especially considering of the 48 COE chihuahua breeder sites I looked at.. only EIGHT mentioned anything about age, and only 3 or 5... I admit to not remembering, specifically said they would not release puppies before 12 weeks.
And as the chihuahua is the breed closest to the yorkie in size, and have many of the same health issues regarding size, they were the best comparison to me.

And no, the answers were NOT easily googled. NO WHERE did I see the gold gene was ee when I searched for that answer. Not even here, And no where did I see any other health reason given other than hypoglycemia. The truth is, if you DON'T have an answer, then don't answer. However, seveal people DID give answers that were health reasons. THEY were helpful. THEY answered the question, and they did it without being angry, abrasive, or attacking me.

Also, if you're going to call me condescending, perhaps you should see to the tone of your own post, and some posts by others. I have been sneered at, had my words twisted, talked down to, and personally attacked by members of this site. While I have done my best to remain polite, and ANSWER the accusations leveled at me.
And then I am being accused of being condescending?

[Nancy1999]

I think this site answers the question about the 12 week rule. Why do Maltese puppies need to be 12 weeks old before going to a new home??. It talks about Maltese puppies, but the same thing would be true for all toy breeds.

Why is there a 12-week-old rule about selling a Maltese puppy? Have you ever wondered why it is fine to place a large breed puppy at 8 weeks old as opposed to a small breed puppy? Why does the American Maltese Association code of ethics require a Maltese puppy be 12 weeks of age before they are placed in homes? There are many reasons!! I am going to compare lab puppies to Maltese puppies because I have had experience with both breeds in hopes of making it more easily understandable as to why this "12-week-old" rule exists for Maltese and many other "toy" breeds.
At birth there is not a lot of difference between Maltese puppies and lab puppies.......both litters depend on their moms for food, comfort, and heat. Shortly there after the differences start to become very apparent. A litter of three week old lab puppies are up playing and maneuvering around pretty well and are usually 3 pounds or more in weight. They are also getting their teeth and starting to eat gruel. A litter of Maltese puppies at three weeks of age have an average weight of 13.5 ounces and are just barely starting to get up on their legs and maneuver around readily....they have very little coordination at this point.

By four weeks old a lab litter is usually weaned from their mom. Maltese puppies at 4 weeks old are still very dependant on their mom's for nourishment although at this point I have moved the water bowl down for them to lap and they do lick at mom's food.

By eight weeks there is a drastic difference between a litter of lab puppies and a litter of Maltese puppies. Eight week old lab puppies usually have their teeth now and are eating puppy food. They are also much larger at this point with an average weight of between 11 to 17 pounds. They also seem to be mentally more mature at this point to me and are able to go to their new homes. In many cases, my Maltese puppies do not even have teeth and are still nursing their moms at eight weeks old.

At eight weeks old my Maltese puppies whose "average" weight is 1 pound 9 ounces usually start to get teeth and when those tiny needle sharp teeth start to come in is when Mom decides it is time to wean. This is a very important and scary time for Maltese puppies. They are used to having a milk bar provided for them and many do not really want to eat that nasty old gruel. Since a Maltese puppy is still very small, normally less than 2 pounds, they are also in danger of getting hypoglycemia which is caused by them not eating enough. This can be a very dangerous time for a Maltese puppy since hypoglycemia can result in seizures and even death if not taken care of immediately. This is also the normal time when a Maltese puppy starts to learn about puppy etiquette from it's mom and any other adults around and from playing with siblings, if there is more than one puppy in the litter. They learn about appropriate doggy behavior at this point. This is very important for the future well being and mental stability of this Maltese puppy. Maltese puppies learn some valuable lessons in the weeks after weaning, including how to get along with other dogs, and that biting hurts. These are lessons, all learned in puppy play, that no dog should be without. Some of the most important lessons in life, a puppy will learn from it's mom and siblings. They NEED this time with their mom and littermates!!

An eight week old Maltese puppy may or may not be ready for it's first puppy shot. Resent studies on vaccination have proven that vaccinations given to a nursing puppy are basically worthless. They need to be weaned for that vaccination to do what it is supposed to do. My Maltese puppies are usually just receiving their first puppy shot sometime between 8 and 10 weeks old.

Below are pictures of Rêve, Foxstone's Daydream Keeper, at 8 weeks old and at 12 weeks old. You will note that there is not a lot of difference between an eight week old Maltese puppy and a 12 week old Maltese puppy.




She is still a little fluff ball but at 12 weeks old she is better prepared both physically and mentally to go out and face the world.

So if you are looking for a well rounded Maltese puppy that is going to easily adapt into your life style and home with the least amount of problems, that Maltese puppy should be at least 12 weeks old when you bring it into your home....no exceptions!!!!

If a person/breeder is trying to sell you a Maltese puppy that is under 12 weeks old, or heaven forbid, a Maltese puppy that is 8 weeks old or younger, that person is either extremely unknowledgeable of the Maltese breed as a whole or that person does not have the best interests of their Maltese puppies at heart. Either way, in my opinion, you should steer clear of a person, such as this, since they are considered to be, in my opinion, unethical and/or disreputable Maltese breeders.

No "reputable" Maltese breeder is going to sell you a
Maltese puppy that is under 12 weeks old!!!!

If you read this, you will learn there are important health reasons as well as socialization reasons, including inhibition of the biting relax. In other words, mama teaches puppy not to bite with all its strength. Good breeders have told me that their bitches also begin the housebreaking process by pushing puppies to pee pads, and it's no accident that people who have bought puppies younger than 12 weeks seem to have more problems with housebreaking and biting.

[Belle Noir]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Consider the subjects: Can you post links for your research please I believe I have read one of them and it was specific to a few large breeds only...
obviously a study specified to large breeds and specific large breeds with specific needs would NOT apply to Yorkies.

Consider the time: I read a study last night that said it was better to marry at the age of 15 it increases happiness...it was from 1944...then in the 50's the government started releasing wait to get married propaganda films

Dailymotion - 1950 - Are You Ready for Marriage Government Propaganda - a Funny video

I LOVE this video below!
Check this out duck and cover when there's drama, if you duck and cover an atomic bomb won't kill you...
Dailymotion - Duck And Cover 1951 Government Propaganda - a News & Politics video

Consider the sponsor:I read another study just discussed on the 700 club stating women who consume vitamin on a daily basis die earlier than woman who do not-it was a sponsored by a well known pharmaceutical company. The study that compare women with heart desire taking vitamins to women who are other wise health and whom do not take vitamins daily

Consider the source: I read a study stating breast milk was the most toxic substance on the plant and that formula being purified is therefore less toxic for infants. The study was not independent an was done by a go figure infant formula company.


QUOTE from Belle Noir: "So in my opinion, ASIDE from the HEALTH benefits that have been pointed out regarding tooth eruption, shots, and the dangers of hypoglycemia, the reasons given do not make sense with regards to socialization, house training, bite inhibition and so forth."
Why do you need anything beyond health reasoning?
If you don't understand the behavioral impact in socialization well no one can create the ability of another to critically understand things.

Again with the snide comments? Was the last sentence REALLY necessary? Or did you just feel the need to get in another jab at me? And to clarify things, MY point was NEVER what you seem to be assuming I was making. I DO understand FAR GREATER than you know the behavioral impact of socialization. My questioning was on the behavioral impact of socialization on a puppy whose only socialization is within the natal pack.
In fact, some Yorkie breeders have touched on that, when they suggest not getting "siblings" because the pups bond too closely to each other, they get aggressive when they feel their pack structure is threatened, and there is also the exasperation of dominance and submission with the two sibs, that can lead to either one being hen pecked and hounded, or a terrible bloody injurious fight between evenly matched sibs, when one decides they want to be the boss dog.

I do believe I said several times in my "eye gouging" posts that the health reasons were good enough for me. I was looking at learning what OTHER health reasons other than hypoglycemia were the health reasons that mattered to breeders. Because if those health reasons mattered to breeders then they should matter to potential buyers as well.
I had not considered tooth eruption, for example. And I was glad to hear of it, and thanked the poster that gave that as one of her reasons.

So many are so quick to attack me because they aren't actually reading what I am saying. Perhaps it is because of the length of my posts, but I don't do small posts, I just never have. I'm the girl when asked to write a paragraph in school, wrote an essay. It's just one of my quirks, albeit, one that can be annoying to some. And I realize that some information gets lost because eyes glaze over, then quickly focus on what is perceived as the negative.

Since I have last been here, I have been trying to understand why, since I DO agree that the HEALTH reasons are valid, what does it matter if I can't agree about the behavioral ones? This is heightened by what some other chihuahua breeders say...

Hypoglycemia is seen most often in smaller specimens of Chihuahua puppy, but I caution all new owners to watch your puppy carefully until he is at least 16 weeks of age. If the puppy is a ‘tiny’, I won’t even sell a puppy until it is 12 weeks of age. This can cause bonding and socialization problems because the first 120 days of the puppy’s life are like "the formative years" in the life of a human child. What it comes down to is a judgment call by the breeder as to when the puppy is strong enough to leave.

I know Yorkies are not Chihuahuas, but I am looking at the size comparison, because, yes, you're right, large breeds are not small breeds.
BUT the truth is also that small breeds and large breeds also follow the same developmental path during the first months of their lives.
Why does it have to be all or nothing? Since I do agree with the health reasons, why must I also agree with the behavioral aspects, when either way, the results are the same? Why is it this place seems to be so threatened by someone with a difference of opinion?

And it's not just me. I have seen many people attacked over the years.. and I say years, because I do go back and read the old posts, for very much the reasons I am being attacked. Because I have a difference of opinion.

You are right. The health reasons are reason enough! I said that, I agree to that! I just wanted to know what OTHER heath reasons other than hypoglycemia. I am sorry I wasn't clear about that. I just did not want to hear about the behavioral aspects of it, because I had my opinion, which I have gone and backed.

As for my research on the subject. I gave you a starting place, the Jackson Laboratory, Hamilton Station, Bar Harbor Maine.. and I do recall in the mountain of information I was reading that Yorkies were in fact used in one of their studies, which is why I felt it particularly relevant. The only breeds that did not have the same developmental progress with specific stimuli, or lack thereof where the basinji and and cocker, though I forget if it was the American or English cocker.. Had I not have to contend with people telling me search the site, use google, stop asking us these questions you can find the answer for yourself, when I HAVE, and have not found answers for, I would be more willing to pull up my browsing history and find the links for you. But I'm sorry, I don't feel so inclined to do so.
However, I did use as one of my search string puppy behavioral development. I hope if you care to look, you will find it useful.

As for bogus studies, I get your point, but these were not studies for or against anything insofar as I can tell. When anyone has an agenda or you feel they do, you are right to be suspicious. That is why I can't be angry at those of you that feel as though I do. I KNOW I don't, but I understand that others feeling that I do makes me a target.
But if a study is not looking to prove anything one way or another, and if just looking to gain information, that study, in general is a pretty good guide. Dr. Whitney's genetic studies for example. He wasn't looking to prove anything, he just wanted to know what happens when you breed say a basset hound with a fox hound.

In closing, can you please stop with the snide comments. We're adults, we can disagree politely without personal attacks.
Yes, I type too much, I know this.
You are exactly right, the health reasons are reason enough, and I said that it was reason enough. So it doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with the other reasons given.
I am sorry if I didn't make it clear, I was looking for health reasons OTHER than hypoglycemia. I thought I had, and thankfully, several breeders were able to read between my somewhat convoluted lines and give their reasons, which I greatly appreciate them sharing.