Why 12 Weeks?

[lovespandp]

Originally Posted by Britster

Well, you are in the minority then, because I find that most people who pad train have dogs that are never 100%. lol. I don't think I'd ever pad train a dog unless I was working super long hours and could not get a dog out in some way or the dog had a medical problem. I don't like pee and poop in the house at all (even on a pad). So I commend you!

Not sure how true it is, but I heard potty training with pads leads to dogs peeing on rugs, bathroom mats and etc. I heard Pad trained dogs do not know the difference ( or it is harder for them) to tell the difference from a pad and a rug or bathroom mat. Not sure what is true but thats what I heard!

[Belle Noir]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

My Jilly was 4 1/2 mos. when I got her and Tibbe was 9 mos. and I could not have been closer to either than I was with Jilly during her life and am with Tibbe. Neither of them turned out to be nippers or anything like that because they both had behavioral modification training and both became dream dogs as to their conduct and attitudes.

Personally, I would be scared to death to bring a 6 or 8 week old puppy home with all the risks plus knowing what it could be missing as to good old Mother Nature training by mom and littermates in the setting the pup was born into. I believe in giving the more natural way of letting the canine family structure educate and nurture a pup along with the input of the breeder until the baby has matured a bit into its own sense of self. That's when I can better tell what kind of a dog I am probably looking at as to temperament, plus, of course, conformity. Let momma dog keep her babies in her nest a while and let the pups grow and flourish under her care is my preference. I'll still have years and years to enjoy him.

I can understand and respect that. I guess having hand raised puppies, and done my research, I felt ready for anything Pixie could throw at me.
I admit, I wasn't prepared for how tiny she was, and I wasn't prepared for her not believing that Cesar's Puppy or Science Diet Dry Puppy was real food. I shouldn't have been surprised, though, when she started "stealing" my mother's cats' dry food about 3 days after I got her, when she was 9 weeks.
It was also about then....
Hmmmm.. I think I am having an epiphany. Pixie THINKS she's a cat because of the couple days at my mother's house with her cats!
She started eating dry food, stealing the cats food. She started eating wet food when Sweetie showed her it was really something GOOD (but not Cesar's I think it was Nutro puppy). When I'm on the floor and she jumps up on my back and perches on my shoulder, she is just emulating Cleo (or Chloe, I can't tell them apart).
Maybe she would have learned to use the litter box if she'd had more than 2 days with them, lol.
I'm only teasing a little. But Sweetie DID stick his nose in Pixie's canned food the second I opened it. But then the Nupro smelled like people food, and more appealing than the Cesar's puppy, so at the same time, while she could have started eating it, because Sweetie was trying to eat it, she could have wanted to eat it because it smelled so much better than what she was being offered.

So maybe at least another week with her mother would have helped with the food situation. I am willing to admit that. I am also going to go on record as saying that had her litter been offered food earlier then by 8 weeks she would have been if not fully weaned, at least capable of recognizing food on her own.

Originally Posted by Teresa Ford

Why 12 Weeks ? I follow the YTCA recommendations and guide lines. I have never seen any adverse effects because a puppy wasn't adopted until they were at least 12 weeks old. Do I believe that all puppies should be placed at 12 weeks ? No. I think some could be placed earlier and be fine and I think some benefit more by staying with the breeder an extra two or three weeks beyond the 12 week age. I feel strongly that every breeder should pay attention to their breed club's recommendations which are based on years and years of combined experience. I know I do not always have an answer. More often than not, I can find someone who has more experience, or can suggest research I can study. If I am in the minority about something, concerning Yorkies I would much rather be safe than sorry. If everyone is telling me the same thing, I pay attention.

I think we believe the same thing. I am not discounting the YTCA's vast experience and knowledge. But I am also not one to accept on say so. I want facts. Anecdotal information works as well. I am sure there has been no study done on puppies sent at 8 weeks vrs 9 weeks, vrs 10, 11, 12, and so on up to 16 weeks. Just as I am sure that breeders believe that for the most part Yorkie puppies do best when 12 weeks.
Now I am asking WHY, and explaining how the reasons given that I have seen, make no sense to me based on MY experience.

I am, once again, trying hard to differentiate MY personal experience with the experience of those with Yorkies.

You mean to tell me NO ONE has lost a mother, and had only a singleton puppy to hand raise? Obviously this has happened. And I am sure that in the end that puppy had no adverse reactions to being hand reared.
So no momma and no littermates.
What if this was an only dog? It's possible.
Granted the puppy in this case likely wouldn't leave the breeders possession, but where then is the beneficial presence of the mother and littermates? This puppy isn't broken or irreparably impaired by the lack of sibs and momma.
I can even see where this puppy may have to leave the breeders, if there was a puppy pick stud fee contact of live birth.
It's situations like this, that I KNOW have happened and unfortunately will happen again that make be question the REASONS given, OTHER than the HEALTH of the puppy.
But then as I have said, if someone is a professional yorkie person, then they know how to handle a younger than 12 week old puppy, and I don't see that it's wrong to let a puppy go before 12 weeks to that someone. They have the knowledge and ability to handle it.

I believe you said what I am thinking, but haven't yet put into words. This..
"Do I believe that all puppies should be placed at 12 weeks ? No. I think some could be placed earlier and be fine and I think some benefit more by staying with the breeder an extra two or three weeks beyond the 12 week age."
And also this..
"I know I do not always have an answer."

And that's why I ask the questions I ask. I am willing to listen, even if I don't come to agree with what's being said, especially when it is outside my experience, I respect what is being said.

Originally Posted by 1Ieisha

Well I think Belle Noir asked some good questions, and defended herself very well! I nean I don't see how she was stirring th pot, but if that's the way you see it then so be it. And I laughed because I could just imagine some of you getting all offended in front of your computer screens lol!! Like "how dare sge ask a question about something she doesn't understand!!" Haha!

But I agree with some of you, its recommended, the part about the shots, and teeth..
This really could be a good thread.

Thank you kindly. Sadly, I feel I have to walk a fine line between asking for information I haven't been able to find, and chance offending some people because I dared to ask a question about something I don't understand.
Gladly, as I have said, I have a thick skin, so I chose to possibly offend by asking a question, and thereby increase my own knowledge and edification at the risk of some ruffled feathers.

Making sure the teeth were in wasn't something I had thought of, so I LOVED that answer. As well as for shots. I guess I'm used to shots at 6 and 8 weeks, so it didn't occur to me that others may start the shots later, or use a longer spaced schedule.
Which actually makes sense with the little tinies (which includes ALL Yorkies).
Health should be the priority of every breeder and owner. Mental, emotional, and physical. And I guess because I have not seen with my own litters any difference between puppies that went to their new homes at 8 weeks, and ones that left at 10, or even 6 months, or 2 years... Because I would happily keep any puppy I had whose sale fell through, that didn't match anyone on my waiting list temperamentally.. I just didn't understand the socialization, bite inhibition thing that is the given reason.
Which is why I asked.

Not about the physical health, I agree with that 100% and that is reason enough for me... though some people don't seem to understand that I am agreeing that is a valid reason.
I am questioning the OTHER reasons given. And I think this is about the fourth time I have said that, lol.

[Belle Noir]

Originally Posted by Deuce

I git Rizzo older, he was 14 weeks and I never had an issue with him nipping, he potty trained pretty quick but we have an accident once in a blue moon. While yorkie puppies are freakin cute, honestly I'm glad I got Rizzo older because I got to avoid a lot of the bad behavior that I've read about here from people that got their pup too early.

I probably would have been happier with Pixie older. That first month was half me freaking out because I couldn't find the puppy because she was so tiny and I was terrified I was going to sit on her, or squish her by rolling on her, as she slept with me, and half me freaking out because she was so tiny, and I was afraid that she was going to get stepped on, or rolled on by the computer chair.
OK, it was ALL me freaking out because she was so tiny. I honestly didn't expect her to be as small as she was.
She was so tiny, I didn't believe she was the age I was told, I firmly believed that she was younger.. like 5 weeks. Even my brother who has as much breeding experience as I do, thought she was 5-6 weeks. But the vet, and my COE mentor both agreed she was 9 weeks. Just super tiny.
I'm not going to comment on the bad behavior.. I have avoided most of the threads about bad behavior. I expect a certain degree of respectability from my dogs, and I have always gotten it. Especially when I have raised them. Rehabbing a former fighting dog is a bit more difficult, but puppies, in my experience, follow where you lead. Even with the vagrities of individual personalities.

Originally Posted by Britster

I will say that I got Jackson at 9 weeks old but by that point, he was already almost 6lbs. He never had a biting problem, ever. He also was very easy to house break. I was glad that he did not have another three weeks in the house he was at and that I got him to MY house sooner. Not that it was a "bad" house per day... but she was not a good breeder, and never did any type of socializing, or any of that, and I think he would have been even more shy had he been left there until 12 weeks old. I think he was better off being with me.

However, I think a pup should be with it's mother until 12 weeks in most situations, no matter what the breed. I think it would be very beneficial to any pup, honestly.

On the other side of things, my dad got his JRT/Shihtzu mix at the age of 7 weeks and she was a terrible biter. You could not even play with her for the first few months because she'd constantly just bite you. She still is not potty trained properly and goes in the house practically every day at 4 years old. She's very growly and will still bite if she is annoyed. However, I don't really think this was necessarily a matter of being taken too young, but a training issue.

So who knows, really.

I am not denying that there can be benefits to a puppy staying with it's littermates and mother longer. I am saying I have not personally seen any, and that is why I question that reason.
Not that it isn't valid for some, just I can't see it. Not those reasons.. but YES for the health reasons given.

Originally Posted by McheleM

My main reason is the shots. I had a 8 wk old parvo puppy, and will never again bring home a puppy that hasn't had at least 2 sets of shots.


Allie was 16 wks when I got her (btw, she was "discounted" because of her age) Noah was 7 wks ( I got them the same time from the same breeder) and Westley was 12 weeks exactly. I have never had any problems with Allie or Westley. Noah's parvo treatment was an emotional and monetary roller coaster, it's stunted his growth, and his tummy is still not 100%. All because he was too young to be taken out of his environment and introduced to another.

I have never agreed with taking a pup away from mom before 10 weeks for any breed-and honestly, I think people who do are only doing it for the money.

Yes, I can agree with the health reasons. But I can disagree with the motives you assigned, as I never made much money off my dogs between the health checks, DNA tests, and the showing, and rarely breeding.. But I have sold puppies at 8 weeks that went on to be just fine.
And many reputable COE breeders have sold puppies and will continue to sell puppies at 8 weeks. I highly doubt they're doing it for money. But you're welcomed to feel that way.

I'm sorry if that sounded snotty, or rude, I don't mean it that way, I have rewritten the above a half dozen times trying to get my point across without sounding rude, but no matter what I do, it just comes across that way, and that's not the tone I'm trying to portray.
With most of our language being nonverbal, the written word doesn't accurately present to you how I am saying, and I'm really sorry for that.

Being as it's going on 1 in the morning, and I am losing my ability to accurately express my meaning and tone, I think it's time for me to step out of this until I have gotten some sleep.

Again, thank you everyone for your responses. I am enjoying this. If I am repetitious, please believe, it isn't because I am trying to convince anyone of anything, but restating my position and why I belief what I do.

Each time I respond, I'm talking to the person I'm quoting, which is why I am saying the same things over and over again. It's not that I think that if I keep on saying it, people will listen and be swayed to my train of thought. It's just I'm reiterating my position, my experience, my opinion.

Good night all, and I shall resume reading and replying to the posts on this thread in the morning.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by lovespandp

Not sure how true it is, but I heard potty training with pads leads to dogs peeing on rugs, bathroom mats and etc. I heard Pad trained dogs do not know the difference ( or it is harder for them) to tell the difference from a pad and a rug or bathroom mat. Not sure what is true but thats what I heard!

That's entirely untrue.
In fact it's the opposite-the potty pads (most) have a scent on them, news paper, lawn etc does not...

[roseylovestosho]

Originally Posted by lovespandp

Not sure how true it is, but I heard potty training with pads leads to dogs peeing on rugs, bathroom mats and etc. I heard Pad trained dogs do not know the difference ( or it is harder for them) to tell the difference from a pad and a rug or bathroom mat. Not sure what is true but thats what I heard!

LOL my entire apartment is wall-to-wall carpeting and Teddy never misses his pee pad! What a good boy

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by roseylovestosho

LOL my entire apartment is wall-to-wall carpeting and Teddy never misses his pee pad! What a good boy

We just moved from a place with all hard floors to wall to wall carpeting, and we've had a few accidents but were getting better.

[Deuce]

OP...it seems like you're being difficult on purpose, you are aware of all the reasons breeders of small dogs don't release their pups until 12 weeks (reputable ones anyway). So what do you hope to accomplish here? Has there been studies officially published in dog magazines proving that a pup is less prone to diseases, and are better socialized, probably not. Why not attend dog shows and talk to breeders who can explain it better than us, since you're just going to have a "smart" comeback for everyone who responds here.

[lovespandp]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

That's entirely untrue.
In fact it's the opposite-the potty pads (most) have a scent on them, news paper, lawn etc does not...

Good point!

[lovespandp]

Originally Posted by roseylovestosho

LOL my entire apartment is wall-to-wall carpeting and Teddy never misses his pee pad! What a good boy

Yes that is a very good boy! I admire you!! I don't even have carpet and Peanut has a handful of accidents!!

[IsabelleOllie]

OP- In response to your comment that other toy breeds code of ethics don't require that their member breeders keep their puppies until 12 weeks, that isn't correct. I looked up the COE for both the American Maltese Association and the Shih Tzu Club of America. They both state that members not release puppies until they are at least 12 weeks of age.

[Princess10]

Princess is my first/only yorkie & I got her at 9.5 weeks. I didn't learn otherwise until later.

She had problems going potty-the 'breeder' said she was already using a pad-she never used a pad for me for about a year, though she did go outside. Apparently the 'breeder' was worried about hypoglycemia as she sent a tube of Forti-Cal home & said to give it twice a day, no matter what. I had a lot of problems with Princess nipping/mouthing us. She still does the suckling motion when we're playing & she's tired-I've never seen other dogs do that...is that because she misses the comfort as she wasn't old enough to leave it? All of these issues & she was the biggest pup at 3# I believe. If this could've been avoided by the breeder keeping her longer & I'd known better I would've insisted.

IMO I don't think it's right to put my emotional needs.."oooh, a puppy, a puppy!" before her needs. It could've made many months easier than they were. Please don't get the wrong idea that I don't love her to death, but realizing that love another three weeks later wouldn't have made me love her any less.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Deuce

We just moved from a place with all hard floors to wall to wall carpeting, and we've had a few accidents but were getting better.

How clean were the carpets when you got there?
You should consider there is a scent on them your dog is marking over...
steam clean and then use an anti urine cleaner not the other way around and notice the difference or lack of potty "accidents"

[QuickSilver]

I always thought Thor knew potty pads by smell, and have gone out of my way to always buy the same brand, but since spending time in NY, I've discovered that Thor has a pretty flimsy grasp on potty pad identifiers. I'm pretty sure he goes by (a) location, and (b) small and rectangular.

Thor has never pottied on my bath mat in SF. The first week I was in NY, I found a small yellow stain on the bath mat. I thought, okay, it is white like a potty pad, so maybe it's a little confusing. I purchased a blue mat. Several days later, that one also got marked. I thought fine, it is still kind one uniform color and size. I got a mat with a highly defined pattern and also had a lot of texture to it, so that it did not in any way look or feel like a potty pad. Needless to say, I found poop on it within hours. Soon after that, I found poop on a larger area rug, which Thor hasn't done in years.

Each of these mats was used in a different apartment, so it definitely was not a trace scent, or confusion because he'd gone there before. I think he was just in a new place and decided he was going to experiment with some different surfaces.

[Ringo1]

Originally Posted by KazzyK810

Yes! I want that puppy time and don't want to miss out on a week that I don't absolutely have to! Just like if I was adopting a baby I'd want it as a newborn rather than a toddler.

I don't believe a puppy is "healthier" at 12 weeks than it is at 8 weeks. The puppy is healthy or it is not. It may be bigger, stronger, but not healthier.

And yes again... I want to be the one to train my puppy, not the breeder. I'd rather not have to correct other's training to suit me. I'd prefer to start the pup out as we mean to go on in my home. By the time you'd expect to get your puppy, I'd expect mine to be completely house broken.

I have to say, I'm the polar opposite on this one. The newborn stage was my absolute least favorite of being a Mom.

Colic, spitting up, sleepless nights . . . you can have it!

About 4 months - my son started smiling, grinning, actually interacting with me and that was when the real fun began.

But, back on topic, a lot of health issues do not rear their ugly head until after 8 weeks. So the breeder can be saving someone lots of heartache by holding on to the puppy until they are ready to leave their Mom

Plus, all the threads I've seen on here - newbie owners with 1 and 2 lb babies less than 12 weeks old . . . heartbreak is often just around the corner. The dog is too small and young; the owner has no idea about how to handle such a young and fragile being . . .

Painting with a broad brush, 12 weeks just seems reasonable to me.

[KazzyK810]

Originally Posted by Ringo1

Plus, all the threads I've seen on here - newbie owners with 1 and 2 lb babies less than 12 weeks old . . . heartbreak is often just around the corner. The dog is too small and young; the owner has no idea about how to handle such a young and fragile being . . .

Painting with a broad brush, 12 weeks just seems reasonable to me.

Isn't that why a breeder interviews prospective owners...to ensure that the pup is going to a good home where it will receive competent care? If a person can't handle caring for a young puppy, how do they handle a sick or injured dog should that arise in the future? I'd suggest that if the breeder lacks confidence in the prospective owner's ability to adequately care for a young puppy, they should either educate & provide support to the future owner, or withold the pup until they find a better qualified prospective owner.