Spay and Neuter: When and If ever?

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by gemy

From the studies posted here on this thread, the highest risk for all males is not testicular cancer or even prostate cancer very very low incidence rates, but Benign Prostate Hypertrophy. Which if it is symptomatic can be cured through Prostate surgery.


And from my vet - no need to worry about Prostate cancer in either of my intact males but BPH - which by the way with my 9yr intact male and my 6 yr old intact male have no evidence of. And as evidenced by examination under sedation when I had dentals done....


It is what all males human or canine can suffer from as they age.




Again the above Swedish study only looked at 2 cancers and not a whole lot else in terms of health concerns. And was a very limited study.

So, just because humans get it, that means it does not matter if a dog does....that if you can prevent it, no need to because you don't think it is a big deal? I guess...if you and your vet think thats fine. It would not be fine for me. There are many things we can prevent in dogs but many people don't care to that and the only ones who suffer are the dogs...oh and I suppose the owners' pockets.

Something else while not cancer is not fun for a pup:

https://www.acvs.org/small-animal/perineal-hernias

from the link:

Perineal hernias result from weakening or complete failure of the muscular diaphragm of the pelvis. Normally, the pelvic diaphragm allows for rectal support and keeps the abdominal contents from encroaching on the rectum. Pets with perineal hernias will demonstrate a swelling adjacent to the rectum on one or both sides coupled with signs of constipation, difficulty defacating, lethargy, difficulty urinating, and altered tail carriage.

The underlying cause for weakening or failure of the pelvic diaphragm is unclear at this time. However, many theories are proposed, all of which may be working separately or in unison to allow for pelvic diaphragm weakening or failure. The disease primarily affects older pets, usually between the ages of 7 to 9 years. Non-castrated male dogs and cats are also over-represented.

Again, I spay/neuter all of mine and will continue to do so. I have seen no convincing evidence to tell me that they will suffer a worse fate/condition than the things we know can happen if not altered.

I don't need to be a researcher or even read all of the studies. There are valid sources that provide all of the information I need. I consider ACVS to ba a valid source.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

So, just because humans get it, that means it does not matter if a dog does....that if you can prevent it, no need to because you don't think it is a big deal? I guess...if you and your vet think thats fine. It would not be fine for me. There are many things we can prevent in dogs but many people don't care to that and the only ones who suffer are the dogs...oh and I suppose the owners' pockets.

Something else while not cancer is not fun for a pup:

https://www.acvs.org/small-animal/perineal-hernias

from the link:

Perineal hernias result from weakening or complete failure of the muscular diaphragm of the pelvis. Normally, the pelvic diaphragm allows for rectal support and keeps the abdominal contents from encroaching on the rectum. Pets with perineal hernias will demonstrate a swelling adjacent to the rectum on one or both sides coupled with signs of constipation, difficulty defacating, lethargy, difficulty urinating, and altered tail carriage.

The underlying cause for weakening or failure of the pelvic diaphragm is unclear at this time. However, many theories are proposed, all of which may be working separately or in unison to allow for pelvic diaphragm weakening or failure. The disease primarily affects older pets, usually between the ages of 7 to 9 years. Non-castrated male dogs and cats are also over-represented.

Again, I spay/neuter all of mine and will continue to do so. I have seen no convincing evidence to tell me that they will suffer a worse fate/condition than the things we know can happen if not altered.

I don't need to be a researcher or even read all of the studies. There are valid sources that provide all of the information I need. I consider ACVS to ba a valid source.

ACVS is a professional veterinary organization, so they are a highly reputable source of information. Here is what they have to say about mammary tumors (from http://www.acvs.org/small-animal/mammary-tumors):

Mammary tumors are more common in female dogs that are either not spayed or were spayed after 2 years of age. The risk of a dog developing a mammary tumor is 0.5% if spayed before their first heat (approximately 6 months of age), 8% after their first heat, and 26% after their second heat. Cats spayed before 6 months of age have a 7-times reduced risk of developing mammary cancer and spaying at any age reduces the risk of mammary tumors by 40% to 60% in cats.


More than a quarter of unspayed female dogs will develop a mammary tumor during their lifetime. The risk is much lower for spayed female dogs, male dogs, and cats of either gender. In female dogs, 50% of mammary tumors are benign and 50% are malignant. However, few of the malignant mammary tumors are fatal. In contrast, over 85% of mammary tumors in cats are malignant and most of these have an aggressive biologic behavior (i.e., mammary tumors in cats tend to be locally invasive and spread elsewhere in the body).

Here is what ACVS has to say about pyometra (from http://www.acvs.org/small-animal/pyometra):

Pyometra is an infection of the uterus that may occur in dogs and cats making the pet very ill. The uterus is generally filled with pus. Although the disease has been recognized for decades, the true disease process has still not been completely understood. It is generally recognized that progesterone and estrogen and their receptors have a role in the development of pyometra; however, the infection is triggered by bacterial involvement.

...

Most dogs and cats that are spayed early in life will not develop pyometra. However, a uterine stump pyometra may occur after incomplete ovariohysterectomy which allows a segment of the uterine body or horn to become infected. Typically, either a portion of the ovarian tissue is still present or the animal has been subjected to progestational hormones to allow this situation to develop.


The ACVS on spaying (from http://www.acvs.org/small-animal/ovariohysterectomy):

Due to recent advances in veterinary medicine, more options are now available when it is time to have your pet “spayed.” The surgery may be done in a traditional “open” manner or through minimally invasive means using laparoscopy. Procedures that may be performed include ovariohysterectomy, the surgical removal of the uterus and ovaries, or ovariectomy, when only the ovaries are removed. All of these procedures are performed under general anesthesia. Most primary care veterinarians recommend performing these procedures at approximately six months of age, but they can be performed on dogs of any age. They may be elective, or a treatment for a disease process.


The following are reasons to consider having your pet spayed:
Vastly decreased chance for development of mammary (breast) cancer
200 times less likely if ovariohysterectomy performed before the first estrus (heat cycle)
Eliminates chance of developing a pyometra or uterine infection
Eradicates unwanted estrous behavior and associated bleeding
Eliminates unwanted pregnancies and risks of dystocia (difficult birth)

[pstinard]

BTW, the ACVS is the American College of Veterinary Surgeons, the organization that certifies the Board-Certified veterinary surgeons in the US.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by lisaly

With all due respect, I don't believe this is happening here. I have read that the timing of spaying (early spay) has been questioned and discussed, but I haven't read anyone advocating against spaying females.

I realize some people will use any excuse if they really don't want to spay their dog, but having science based evidence to make informed decisions about our loved ones in our care is very important to me. I really love and trust my vet, but I also value open minded discussions, and I have learned a great deal from fellow YT members. Although there are limitations tothese studies, but there is also much to be learned from them.

With all due respect, I disagree with you.

I am open to learning. This study has been passed around forever and has not taught me anything. I have yet to see any issues with growth plates in any of the yorkies I have dealt with. Much ado if you ask me. It has nothing to do with not wanting to learn....I am weighing and saying that I feel the risks of mammary tumors and pyometra outweigh those concerns. THAT is why I gave Pstinard's post a thumb's up...and commented. That is what you just referred to.

Not only is what I am saying proven scientific fact, I have seen it in years of rescuing this breed. People who failed to alter them and the health issues that ensued, people who failed to provide protection against heartworms and the horrid treatments we put them through and people who failed to do yearly exams and blood work and the problems that creeped up to where it was too late to help them. And let's not forget all the bad breeders out there and the horrible congenital issues. I can tell you that I have learned more about this breed than I wish I knew. Very, very sad.

Excuse me if it makes me sick to my stomach when every time someone asks about spaying, someone comes along and starts spitting this study out about some so called growth issue. They don't bother to mention that the mammary cancer and pyometra could be an issue. They act like it is not important....well just have a yorkie with one of them and then come back after that poor thing has suffered surgery and maybe even died and tell me it is not an issue.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by pstinard

BTW, the ACVS is the American College of Veterinary Surgeons, the organization that certifies the Board-Certified veterinary surgeons in the US.

Great info! Love having a scientist here to help us with the "studies" and research!

[gemy]

[QUOTE=ladyjane;4536991]So, just because humans get it, that means it does not matter if a dog does....that if you can prevent it, no need to because you don't think it is a big deal? I guess...if you and your vet think thats fine. It would not be fine for me. There are many things we can prevent in dogs but many people don't care to that and the only ones who suffer are the dogs...oh and I suppose the owners' pockets.




That is not what I said at all. Actually I don't think anything that is Benign is a huge deal at all. As we age both dogs and humans experience certain changes in our bodies and health. Vision changes, hearing might weaken, heart weakens etc.


For BPH if and only if it becomes a problem in dogs or for that matter humans then you deal with it.

[megansmomma]

[quote=gemy;4537068]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

So, just because humans get it, that means it does not matter if a dog does....that if you can prevent it, no need to because you don't think it is a big deal? I guess...if you and your vet think thats fine. It would not be fine for me. There are many things we can prevent in dogs but many people don't care to that and the only ones who suffer are the dogs...oh and I suppose the owners' pockets.




That is not what I said at all. Actually I don't think anything that is Benign is a huge deal at all. As we age both dogs and humans experience certain changes in our bodies and health. Vision changes, hearing might weaken, heart weakens etc.


For BPH if and only if it becomes a problem in dogs or for that matter humans then you deal with it.

Here's the thing about your argument.......people just do not take care of their animals on a basic level so to say the above is just delusional. Basic vetting are things like yearly exams, Heartworm prevention, vaccines, basic grooming and baths. These same people are not going to "deal with it" as you say. Why not be responsible when the dog is a cute puppy going for their puppy shots and get that spay/neuter done before they are adults in their reproductive years, running about unattended, adding to the pet population or worse DEAD at a shelter. I literally cannot wrap my brain around your rational that you are hanging on to this study and the "more needs to be studied" blah blah blah. Take a look at local shelters, all over FB, look at rescues and pictures of piles of DEAD DOGS and CATS in shelters. Don't you understand the reason that there are so many euthanized animals every years? Don't you realize that they KILL PUPPIES in shelters? They stuff them into gas chambers and KILL THEM. They stick a needle in their vein and KILL THEM. People so horrific things to animals every single day......do you REALLY REALLY THINK these same people are going to "deal with it" when their animals are sick?

This is reality

Spay & Neuter Addressing a Pet Overpopulation Tragedy | Animals Abused & Abandoned, Inc.



Skinned, Dead Dog Found in Pile of Animal Carcasses | NBC4 Washington

Oogy's Story | Animals Abused & Abandoned, Inc.

https://www.youtube.com/v/IaXMQS70jfM

[megansmomma]

This IS REALLY what happens when people do not Spay their pets. Every single day! The dog get's pregnant and they drop her off and her entire litter. This is reality.

[megansmomma]

People are not responsible when it comes to ownership.


Addressing a Pet Overpopulation Tragedy

Each day 10,000 humans are born in the US and each day 70,000 puppies and kittens are born. That represents one human to 15 dogs/45 cats. As long as these birth rates exist, there will never be enough homes for all these animals.

One cat has five kittens three times a year – these kittens reach maturity, have kittens of their own. From one pairing, 420,000 cats can be born in seven years. One dog and her descendants can produce more than 60,000 dogs in six years.

The number of animals entering shelters each year is 8-12 million (HSUS estimate).
The number of cats and dogs euthanized in shelters across the US is between 5-9 million – 60% dogs, 70% cats (ASPCA estimate).


Five out of ten dogs and seven out ten cats in shelters are destroyed simply because there is no one to adopt them (ASPCA estimate).

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by gemy

That is not what I said at all. Actually I don't think anything that is Benign is a huge deal at all. As we age both dogs and humans experience certain changes in our bodies and health. Vision changes, hearing might weaken, heart weakens etc.


For BPH if and only if it becomes a problem in dogs or for that matter humans then you deal with it.

My guess is you have never dealt with mammary tumors in dogs. It is not something I would intentionally expose a dog to. About 50% of them are benign...so does that mean it is ok ? The bottom line is that a simple spay before the first heat puts the risk at almost nothing.
Hard for me to grasp your thinking on this. If it were your body, would you want someone to put you at that risk? I know that may sound stupid to some, but I really do think that more people should think about whether they would put themselves in the same position as they would a dog.
We are not talking about vision and hearing changes here.

[ladyjane]

WARNING: Video is bloody. BUT, is informative. For anyone who thinks it is ok to put a dog at risk of mammary tumors....take a look at this. I honestly have not heard what the vet is saying, but the video shows the surgery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aio2EKzJ3nI

[dottiesyrky]

Having had a dog with cataracts, I would not say that was a minor issue. Over two months of recovery from the surgery, post op effects, and many medications were very unpleasant for the dog.
Honestly, in your opinion would surgery for removal of a benign mammary tumor be worse? Thank you for your opinion. I really want to know.
I posted before you posted the video, perhaps my answer is there.

[dottiesyrky]

Bloody yes. But would the tumors usually get this big before surgery?

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by dottiesyrky

Bloody yes. But would the tumors usually get this big before surgery?

Often! What Jodi mentioned above is so true. People don't deal with it...they get rid of the older pup ... it goes to a shelter or is surrendered to rescue....IF it is lucky that is. Many are found wandering the streets. It is usually after it gets out of control. Not when just one happens to be enlarged.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

My guess is you have never dealt with mammary tumors in dogs. It is not something I would intentionally expose a dog to. About 50% of them are benign...so does that mean it is ok ? The bottom line is that a simple spay before the first heat puts the risk at almost nothing.
Hard for me to grasp your thinking on this. If it were your body, would you want someone to put you at that risk? I know that may sound stupid to some, but I really do think that more people should think about whether they would put themselves in the same position as they would a dog.
We are not talking about vision and hearing changes here.

The more I think would people and I think the answer is definitely no there are women out there who get tested for the breast cancer gene now and if they have it they have a mastectomy even though there is a chance they might not get cancer. Since we can't do that with our dogs per say we should spay them before there first heat if possible because then the mammarys are not developed.