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-   -   Spay and Neuter: When and If ever? (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/234713-spay-neuter-when-if-ever.html)

gemy 09-28-2011 11:59 AM

Spay and Neuter: When and If ever?
 
Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete

I've attached one link that talks about this issue, but there are many, many more sites, that incorporate recent (let's say past 5-7 yrs of research), by unbiased evaluators of the multiplicity of research available on this subject.

For many pet owners, it is almost an automatic decision to spay and neuter their pet. After all the vet recommends it, rescue does it as a matter of policy, your breeder wants it, and everywhere you turn you are advised to spay and or neuter your pet.

You are told categorically that it is overwhelming better for the health of your pet: well that is not "categorically so". Research throws some clear light onto this matter.

What I believe you need to separate out from all this is a couple of things; one: there is a pet overpopulation problem (and if you spay and neuter obviously you can't contribute to this), and the vested interests of both vets and breeders and rescues to spay and neuter.

Vets have an economic interest in the spay and neuter process. Breeders want to protect their lines, and make sure their lines are not deliberately or inadvertenly bred.

So as a concerned pet owner and a Responsible one, what do you do?

In my opinion first you want to make sure that the growth plates are closed before any spay and or neutering is considered. It is different for each breed of dog, and also within each line of that breed. But not for almost all breeds before 12 months of age, and in some 18 to 24 months ( eg:large breed dogs). I say this because early and especially very early neutering and spaying prior to 5 mths old, result in structural abnormalities and their resultant cocommittant osteopaedic problems that a pet owner should not have to deal with. Not to mention the increased risk of cancer, ligament tears, and dysplasia.

What does this mean to you as a dog owner?. For females they will go through at least one heat and maybe two, and must be safeguarded from breeding. Safeguarding does NOT mean belly bands and panties, but crates and separate feeding and exercise times for 5 wks or maybe 6wks, starting from as early as 6mths old for toy breeds, or 9 mths old for larger breeds, once heat has commenced.
For the male puppy, you make sure they don't roam free, and if they mark their territory so be it. You can with effort (akin to housebreaking) train your male not to mark in the house.

The research is clear at least for males, and somewhat less clear for females, that only looking at "health" and not other issues, that for the majority of male dogs, neutering Does Not provide significantly increased health over the long term, in fact the opposite.

Some fallacies that seem to be negated when studies are examined:

Neutering makes behavioural (beneficial changes in the males), specifically aggression..... Not so, In fact more aggression is observed in neutered males.
Neutering makes marking less....... Not clear or proven


Spay incontinence is so common; a term which was developed to describe what can happen after spay/neuter. This means your dog female or male. can't hold their bladder, and you as the pet owner must constantly over the life of your pet be prepared to clean up after urine discharge.

Believe you me, I don't want irresposnible breeding, but I don't want others to be sold a bill of goods either. That bill being, spaying/neutering is categorically good for the health of your pet.

jencar98 09-28-2011 02:22 PM

I've been aware of some of the problems of altering and early s/n for some time now. Working with rescue though, I tend to see only the irresponsible pet owners and greeders and still think the advantages of s/n outweigh the disadvantages.

I'm sure the average member on yt could most likely raise their pets intact and manage to still be responsible about avoiding any accidents. However, we are but a small percentage of the pet owners across the world. Still yet we do see quite a few "oops" litters posted about here.

As far as vets having a vested economic interest in s/n, I think the same argument could be made for over-breeding and vets. After all, vet care to bring a litter to market is not cheap, and then there is the continued benefit of those puppies needing future vet care with annual check-ups, dentals, senior care, etc. Seems to me, if a vet was worried only about his vested interest, it would be much more lucrative, to promote breeding, rather than s/n.

Until all pet owners become truly responsible and our shelters/rescues are near empty, I'll have to continue to favor spay and neuter, even if it is early s/n in some cases.

mom of 3 dogs 09-28-2011 02:53 PM

Peyton was spayed before i got her, but my 2 chihuahuas i had as puppies and they are 3 years old now and i have been so afraid to get them spayed. there is no chance that they will get pregnant. i do not have a male and they are inside most of the time and when they go out , i am right there with them.
i have been afraid because the last dog i had, was a boston terrier and he was an adult dog when i neutered him and after i picked him up from the surgery , he would drip urine uncontrollably. i just have a fear that something like this might happen or something worse. but i know neutering is so routine and most always goes just right.
i do have an appt. with my biggest Chihuahua for an exam before booking a spay. i decided i will go ahead with it for her because her last heat cycle she went into a false pregnancy, and also she has allergies and the vet thought it possibly could be hormonal. So i'm going to have Tootsie spayed but i'm not having Minnie spayed. just too scared and her times in heat go perfect.

Wylie's Mom 09-28-2011 07:11 PM

Great discussion. There was another article a couple years back about this too...think it was in the Whole Dog Journal....? Really good. At the end of the day, we (creatures in general) all do much better w/ our hormones intact - hormones are so important to our bodies. Overpopulation is a tragic reality w/ devastating consequences - so from that angle, s/n can be viewed as necessary. It *is* sad (to me) to deprive our kiddos from their natural hormones though.

gemy 09-29-2011 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 3678679)
Great discussion. There was another article a couple years back about this too...think it was in the Whole Dog Journal....? Really good. At the end of the day, we (creatures in general) all do much better w/ our hormones intact - hormones are so important to our bodies. Overpopulation is a tragic reality w/ devastating consequences - so from that angle, s/n can be viewed as necessary. It *is* sad (to me) to deprive our kiddos from their natural hormones though.

There are some alternatives, vasectomies and tubal ligation, that some vets apparently are skilled enough to perform. Leaves the organs intact to produce the hormones.

angieNchloe 09-29-2011 05:53 AM

very interesting, as I'm trying to decide the best time to spay my Chloe because she turns 6 months next month.

Ellie May 09-29-2011 06:04 AM

This is something I've thought a lot about for my own pups. I've come to the conclusion that for my family, the benefits of spaying (medically) outweigh the risks. ..that is if it's done before the second heat. After that, I think it's up to each owner if they want to chance pyometra. It is very common and you'l need to spay if it happens anyway.

For the boys, I'm still unsure. There are strong medical arguments either way. At this time, because some medical issues are prevented and because marking can potentially be eliminated, I would decide to neuter.

I don't base my decisions on what is best for the dog population in the US anymore than I base my own medical decisions on what is best for the majority. However, I also never let my dogs out alone. Now there could always be an accident, but in general they are very protected. I base my decisions on what is best for the dogs and our family as a whole with a ton of input from their vet.

I think s/n is happening too early now. Pediatric s/n is not my thing. I would not buy from a breeder who did this if they insisted on it before pup came to me. I also think there is some truth to the ortho issues from early sn/n and spay incontinence (happens more if they are spayed too young). The larger the breed, the more inclined I am to hold off awhile.

But all that said, I don't think it's an economic decision by most vets.Some even do it close to their cost because they believe it's the right thing to do. They would get just as much money from taking care of puppies or doing emergency spays over pyometra and mammary cancer.

angieNchloe 09-29-2011 06:09 AM

I've just always thought as a pet owner that this was a procedure done ONLY for the sake of preventing unwanted pregnancy. Am I wrong? My heart BREAKS for all the unwanted animals out there!!!! For this reason, I'm all for it. Is there another reason I should consider in my own household? I'm a very responsible pet owner, so I really need some enlightenment on this subject.

jencar98 09-29-2011 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angieNchloe (Post 3678949)
I've just always thought as a pet owner that this was a procedure done ONLY for the sake of preventing unwanted pregnancy. Am I wrong? My heart BREAKS for all the unwanted animals out there!!!! For this reason, I'm all for it. Is there another reason I should consider in my own household? I'm a very responsible pet owner, so I really need some enlightenment on this subject.

While the initial primary reason for s/n is to prevent unwanted pregnancy, there are also some health considerations, both pro and con.

gemy 09-29-2011 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angieNchloe (Post 3678949)
I've just always thought as a pet owner that this was a procedure done ONLY for the sake of preventing unwanted pregnancy. Am I wrong? My heart BREAKS for all the unwanted animals out there!!!! For this reason, I'm all for it. Is there another reason I should consider in my own household? I'm a very responsible pet owner, so I really need some enlightenment on this subject.

Research the subject. One link was provided. There are many more links, information out there on the subject.

A female accordingly to one researcher is a bit different from the male. The pros/cons are unclear or at most 50/50 for the females, the males are a much different and clearer story.

If you are truly a responsible pet owner, don't let your male dogs roam, keep them on leash when outside,etc then you won't be contributing to the pet over population problem. For males marking is a behaviour, that yes can be trained out of most dogs. My male BRT does not mark in the house, nor does my male Yorkie. It took a lot more training for my male Yorkie than for my BRT. Neither fully intact male is dog aggressive, or for that matter people aggressive.

IsabelleOllie 09-30-2011 03:05 AM

I honestly wanted to wait until Belle was over 1 yr to have her spayed because I do not let her outside alone and my shih tzu is already neutered so there was no chance of any "oops" litter. She went into her first heat right at 6 months and unfortunately she had an issue that caused her to stay in heat for almost 2 months and the easiest way to treat it was to spay her since I didn't intend to ever breed her.

I had a female schipperke and she was 2 years old when I spayed her (again No puppies for her either) I wouldn't leave a female intact for any longer than 2 or 3 years because I'd be afraid of pyo (had a cat with that issue - $1000 spay surgery and I was so scared she was going to die)

I had a beautiful male shep/rottie/lab mix, adopted as a puppy when I worked at the local animal shelter. I was pro early spay/neuter then and he was exactly 5 months old when he was neutered. He ended up just as the link Gemy provided described : narrow skull, very long legs, narrow but deep ribcage, and SEVERE hip dysplasia. He did live to be 14 years old, but I wonder what his life would have been like if I'd waited until he was at least a year old to have him neutered.

Oh, wanted to add that Oliver was neutered at just under 6 months and he never lifted his leg until he was about a year old. Now he marks outside when on walks and during the 2 months that Belle was in heat he marked my dining room table legs.

gemy 10-15-2011 01:06 PM

Another link on this question: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongT...uterInDogs.pdf

MikaTallulah 10-17-2011 08:03 PM

Spayed Cozy after her 2nd litter. The puppies were huge 6-9 oz. 4 females and 1 male (runt). Her first litter 3 males and 2 females-2 to 3 oz. She had morning sickness her entire 1st pregnancy. No sickness the 2nd time. If she had more pups she may have had to be sectioned. Fist litter took less than 3 hrs start to finish with an 1 1/2 break btw the males and the females. 2nd time is was 16 hrs from 1st runt male puppy to the last female.

Cozy was spayed when I spayed Roxy and Zoey at 2. Roxy is too small and Zoey has the wrong personality. She have no maternal instincts. She hid til Cozy's second litter puppies were 6 wks old while Roxy was in the basket with her mother from the first puppies birth on. Roxy is very maternal just too small.

I neutered my Golden, Lucky, at 10 because he was miserable when Cozy went through her 1 st heat. He elected to be outside from 7a to 11 p. Cozy slept in my room behind a puppy gate from 11 p to 7 am. She would not leave him alone and he was not interested in her so he hid outside.

Lucky never marked, never wondered, and never fathered a litter. He was a perfect gentlemen.

lisaly 10-23-2011 04:52 PM

These articles gave me a lot to question and think about. The general population of pet owners is, for the most part, not as in tune with the health and well-being of their pups like your typical person on this forum, and that is a consideration on this topic. However, as a responsible pet owner who was very aware of my girls' health, you brought to my attention things I will greatly consider in the future. You have always contributed a wealth of knowledge and invaluable advice to Yorkie Talk, and I have always greatly appreciated all that you do for this forum and for me.

KazzyK810 10-23-2011 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gemy (Post 3678859)
There are some alternatives, vasectomies and tubal ligation, that some vets apparently are skilled enough to perform. Leaves the organs intact to produce the hormones.

I wish this was offered as an option. While obviously I'm aware of it for humans, I never even thought about it for pets. But if we could prevent pregnancy, yet allow them to maintainn their natural hormones levels, that would be wonderful! I'd even be willing to pay substantially more for this procedure if this was better for my pup.


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