Yorkshire Terrier and the Parti/Tricolor

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

This is a Biewer in the first picture, does he look like the dogs in the 2nd photo of Mr Biewer with his dogs.
The 3rd photo is a Biewer and the last photo is Parti yorkies.
Wonder which ones look more like Mr Biewers dogs.

Love the pics, the 2nd and 4th pic remind me so much of Pfeiffer ! Actually, in the 4th pic, the little puppy in the very back - looks SO much like P when I got her at the very beginning!

[TammyJM]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Love the pics, the 2nd and 4th pic remind me so much of Pfeiffer ! Actually, in the 4th pic, the little puppy in the very back - looks SO much like P when I got her at the very beginning!

Good reason for this Ann (good eye, by the way). The dog in the front right is Livi's half brother ("Toot") and that is Livi's nephew (Toot's son) to the left of him. Livi looks a lot like both of them and Pfeiffer looks like her momma. Beautiful, huh?!

Tam

[lisaly]

I honestly don't know enough about Biewers or Partis to make enough of an educated decision on them, even though I've read quite a bit. I know this is a hugely controversial topic, and I don't want to cause any hurtful feelings. There is so much conflicting information about the Biewers because of the fighting between the clubs and also there's much misunderstandings with the Partis too. I think the Biewers are beautiful, and I most definitely think they are Yorkies. I also thinkthe Partis are too, my only hesitancy is not being sure with the way things are now with them not being accepted for showing, is whether it will affect the gene pool of traditional yorkies if carriers are shown and bred to traditional yorkies. There does seem to be at least more of a standard with the Biewers about the placement of colors than the Partis. I would hate to think that people could be breeding for color over more important traits like temperament, health, movement, etc. The last photo has beautiful dogs who seem to represent the Yorkie standard other than the color variance. There are going to be Biewers who are far from standard, and the same is true for Partis, but when I look at photos of Yorkies, I see more that are not to standard than the ones that I see that are. I don't think we can use those photos to prove anything. What's most important to me is a breeder who cares about her dogs, does health testing, breeds close to standard as much as possible, and puts their heart and soul into breeding to better the breed. I wish that Parti breeders who are trying to go about breeding correctly (other than the color issue) could be given a venue to show their dogs in AKC perhaps like the Beagles being shown in two separate categories for size so that those worrying about the standard Yorkshire Terrier being changed wouldn't have to do so. I know that's not going to happen anytime soon, but dreams are nice and change can happen if people stand up and play fairly. So many people at Yorkie Talk who I respect have Biewers and Partis, and there are breeders who I respect, as well. I think sometimes it's best to leave things to agreeing to disagree about things like this. I am very interested in the history of the Yorkshire Terrier and have enjoyed reading all of this. I have an old copy of Joan Gordon's book that I will try to locate. Thanks for the inspiration.

[lisaly]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

Good reason for this Ann (good eye, by the way). The dog in the front right is Livi's half brother ("Toot") and that is Livi's nephew (Toot's son) to the left of him. Livi looks a lot like both of them and Pfeiffer looks like her momma. Beautiful, huh?!

Tam

I must have been writing my reply when this was posted. They are beautiful, just like Livi and all of her babies.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by lisaly

I honestly don't know enough about Biewers or Partis to make enough of an educated decision on them, even though I've read quite a bit. I know this is a hugely controversial topic, and I don't want to cause any hurtful feelings. There is so much conflicting information about the Biewers because of the fighting between the clubs and also there's much misunderstandings with the Partis too. I think the Biewers are beautiful, and I most definitely think they are Yorkies. I also thinkthe Partis are too, my only hesitancy is not being sure with the way things are now with them not being accepted for showing, is whether it will affect the gene pool of traditional yorkies if carriers are shown and bred to traditional yorkies. There does seem to be at least more of a standard with the Biewers about the placement of colors than the Partis. I would hate to think that people could be breeding for color over more important traits like temperament, health, movement, etc. The last photo has beautiful dogs who seem to represent the Yorkie standard other than the color variance. There are going to be Biewers who are far from standard, and the same is true for Partis, but when I look at photos of Yorkies, I see more that are not to standard than the ones that I see that are. I don't think we can use those photos to prove anything. What's most important to me is a breeder who cares about her dogs, does health testing, breeds close to standard as much as possible, and puts their heart and soul into breeding to better the breed. I wish that Parti breeders who are trying to go about breeding correctly (other than the color issue) could be given a venue to show their dogs in AKC perhaps like the Beagles being shown in two separate categories for size so that those worrying about the standard Yorkshire Terrier being changed wouldn't have to do so. I know that's not going to happen anytime soon, but dreams are nice and change can happen if people stand up and play fairly. So many people at Yorkie Talk who I respect have Biewers and Partis, and there are breeders who I respect, as well. I think sometimes it's best to leave things to agreeing to disagree about things like this. I am very interested in the history of the Yorkshire Terrier and have enjoyed reading all of this. I have an old copy of Joan Gordon's book that I will try to locate. Thanks for the inspiration.

I used the photos show that the drastic differences FlDebra was talking about is not just between the partis and the biewers, There are drastic differences in the biewers and partis alone. The spotting gene is very unpredictable.
It starts with the breeder, A breeder must be knowledgeable and research, have their dogs health tested and be very selective about what dogs they breed to produce top quality dogs.
It is not just about putting 2 tri color dogs together to get puppies which unfortunately is what alot of people do.

[Breezeaway]

I want to add a correction to my earlier post about the 3 color standard. I meant to say it isn't the 3 color standard that Mr Biewer originally had, His said white/blue/gold, it didn't include black.

[lisaly]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

I used the photos show that the drastic differences FlDebra was talking about is not just between the partis and the biewers, There are drastic differences in the biewers and partis alone. The spotting gene is very unpredictable.
It starts with the breeder, A breeder must be knowledgeable and research, have their dogs health tested and be very selective about what dogs they breed to produce top quality dogs.
It is not just about putting 2 tri color dogs together to get puppies which unfortunately is what alot of people do.

I apologize that I made it seem that you were trying to use these photos to prove the differences between the two. I didn't clarify my statement enough, and I know it seems that I meant that. I couldn't agree with you more about the breeder being selective about breeding, and I was trying to say what you just wrote. On paper, the Biewer standard is more stringent, but that doesn't make it so. It always comes down to the breeder being selective and producing healthy quality dogs, whether it be traditional yorkies, partis, or Biewers.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

First off the original Biewer standard has been changed several times. Once the Biewers hit the United States is when all the changing of the names and standards took place. The 3 color standard was not Mr. Biewers standard. He named them Biewer Yorkshire A LA Pom Pon.
Isnt it funny how in the Biewers, that in the same litter of puppies they can be registered differently. The tri color pups are registered as a biewer and the traditional colors are registered as yorkshire terriers. They both have the same parents and were born in the same litter, so now tell me how they can be separate breeds???
The parti and the biewer are yorkies, the color on their head turns tan/ gold as they get older just as the yorkie does. Now as to how light or dark the tan/gold is, well thats breeding. Alot of show people dye their yorkies in order to have that perfect color.
There are bad breeders in every breed of dog.
There are yorkies that don't look like yorkies posted all over puppy find, actually its the same in any breed.
This is a Biewer in the first picture, does he look like the dogs in the 2nd photo of Mr Biewer with his dogs.
The 3rd photo is a Biewer and the last photo is Parti yorkies.
Wonder which ones look more like Mr Biewers dogs.

I have to admit, it is difficult researching EITHER Biewer or Partis as there is such disagreement among those breeding them. For Parti's it seems that "anything goes" as long as the dog has white on it. That does not seem like very selective. Your examples are better than the ones I came up with on using the first 3 Partis to come up on search, but they still emphasize what is happening! Too far from Yorkie look & no consistency. You are right that many of those breeding yorkies, should not be breeding the ones they are either -- more selectivity is needed all the way around.

I appreciate the links, information and opinions you have provided in a most professional manner. Hope your Christmas was full of love, laughter & family! We thoroughly enjoyed ourselves here and I am a bit on the exhausted side but a good exhausted.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

Good reason for this Ann (good eye, by the way). The dog in the front right is Livi's half brother ("Toot") and that is Livi's nephew (Toot's son) to the left of him. Livi looks a lot like both of them and Pfeiffer looks like her momma. Beautiful, huh?!

Tam

Hah! That is so awesome!! No wonder I saw Sweet P's face when I looked at those piccies. Pfeiffer poses *just* like Livi's nephew, and I see Livi's/Pfeiffer's coloring so much in those pics.

[concretegurl]

[QUOTE=Jaxx;3368086]The picture of the second Yorkie you posted is not a parti. It is a parti gene carrier.[/QUOTE
1. Ugh no. She's a Parti-if she were a carrier she'd be standard colors, look at her broken coat-she's not the dramatic representation but ask any Standard Yorkie breeder to identify her-they'd flip on anyone calling her a standard- or just a Parti carrier, a Parti carrier is scary to Standard Yorkie Breeders...which just means that a predominance of the recessive gene was brought out in that specific dog...I think they are all Yorkies the color standard just needs to be opened more, (excluding mutation-?)...just my opinion there.
2. Here's why Parti carriers scare Standard breeders (even though technically any Standard is a Parti carrier its just the term Parti Carrier is used for dog with a heavier part linage or they produce more Partis in their litters, expected litters) If she was just a carrier-she'd appear standard in coloration and then when bred to another standard, you'd see Parti's of all representations show up in the resulting pups, in a frequency indeterminable. Another misconception of Partis (that doesn't look Parti enough..but it's definitely not standard must be a carrier...uhg no.) is that they must appear dramatic as Biewers...but I'm now hearing Biewers and Partis are the same...just of different projected breeding results in the name of them having been change!
3. So glad for this thread, cleaning up simple misconceptions, learning tons, researching tons, and well this may not change any minds, present anything concrete (LOL) but it has definitely aided in many of the little things and WOW so nice everyone thus far has kept the attitude with the conversation minimal! Thanks Deb for the thread! I'm still trying to hear back from a breeder who has some old records posted on their site as to the actual text they came from so I can post a link here for reference!

[Rhetts_mama]

[quote=concretegurl;3369660]

Originally Posted by Jaxx

The picture of the second Yorkie you posted is not a parti. It is a parti gene carrier.[/QUOTE
1. Ugh no. She's a Parti-if she were a carrier she'd be standard colors, look at her broken coat-she's not the dramatic representation but ask any Standard Yorkie breeder to identify her-they'd flip on anyone calling her a standard- or just a Parti carrier, a Parti carrier is scary to Standard Yorkie Breeders...which just means that a predominance of the recessive gene was brought out in that specific dog...I think they are all Yorkies the color standard just needs to be opened more, (excluding mutation-?)...just my opinion there.
2. Here's why Parti carriers scare Standard breeders (even though technically any Standard is a Parti carrier its just the term Parti Carrier is used for dog with a heavier part linage or they produce more Partis in their litters, expected litters) If she was just a carrier-she'd appear standard in coloration and then when bred to another standard, you'd see Parti's of all representations show up in the resulting pups, in a frequency indeterminable. Another misconception of Partis (that doesn't look Parti enough..but it's definitely not standard must be a carrier...uhg no.) is that they must appear dramatic as Biewers...but I'm now hearing Biewers and Partis are the same...just of different projected breeding results in the name of them having been change!
3. So glad for this thread, cleaning up simple misconceptions, learning tons, researching tons, and well this may not change any minds, present anything concrete (LOL) but it has definitely aided in many of the little things and WOW so nice everyone thus far has kept the attitude with the conversation minimal! Thanks Deb for the thread! I'm still trying to hear back from a breeder who has some old records posted on their site as to the actual text they came from so I can post a link here for reference!

Not completely correct. In order to be a parti-carrier, the dog would have to carry the recessive gene. Not all standards carry this gene, but any dog from a line that has thrown a parti has the potential to be a carrier. That's one of the reasons more accurate and honest AKC records would be helpful to those who wish to breed only standards.

Refusing to acknowledge they exist and refusing to register them does a disservice to all breeders.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I have to admit, it is difficult researching EITHER Biewer or Partis as there is such disagreement among those breeding them. For Parti's it seems that "anything goes" as long as the dog has white on it. That does not seem like very selective. Your examples are better than the ones I came up with on using the first 3 Partis to come up on search, but they still emphasize what is happening! Too far from Yorkie look & no consistency. You are right that many of those breeding yorkies, should not be breeding the ones they are either -- more selectivity is needed all the way around.

I appreciate the links, information and opinions you have provided in a most professional manner. Hope your Christmas was full of love, laughter & family! We thoroughly enjoyed ourselves here and I am a bit on the exhausted side but a good exhausted.

1. I've seen that too and thus I saw Parti's and Biewers as different types of Yorkies...from what I have heard directly from many Parti breeders enthusiasts etc. that's the basic idea, anything goes-Parti simply means naturally occurring fault, partially colored in some or any way-yes, even if the color difference from the standard is just the appearance of some white.

**Sayign that isn't very selective-well that seems so open in determining "selective" did you mean in breeding standards period, or just the color result and basing that as selective? If you meant just in the resulting coloration-well I think many (I don't dare say most as I can't speak for them) Part breeders celebrate whatever coloration occurs so they do not exercise "selectiveness" there., thus I assume Biewers were created directly from Partis-they were the result (I though they were crossed out to another breed) of selective Parti breeding-apparently I was wrong there-?-unless you talk to some Biewer breeders whom swear they were crossed out...making them 'not Yorkie' so confusing. Glad Breezaway is here...

Isn't Breezaway great!? She really seems to know and have actually spent a lot of time researchign her Biewer history and concerning herself with where the breed is going-I've seen many other Biewer breeders with very high accreditation (championships notoriety n Biewer breeding) that couldn't repeat what she says correctly. Especially her honesty is talking about the genetic decline of Biewers because of their over inbreeding and Biewer to Biewer only practices, (thus my comments of the 'esteemed' Biewer breeder noted above specifically) many other Biewer breeders stress Biewer to Biewer breeding only.

2. Well, then again I only talk to those with selective responsible breeding practices 9that I'm aware of) but they do NOT discriminate by color selection as it seems many Biewer breeders do so. I mean responsible breeding practices like they only focus on pairing dogs appropriately, health, temperament, age, time between litters. minimum litters, many in fact are getting into certifications more and more-I think that certified (such as OFA) should be a requirement prerequisite to breeding period. If not you get dogs like my Elvis-again sorry Deb, I'd post links but you don't want stuff just directly from breeders-I'll post the links and references when I get 'em.

[concretegurl]

[quote=Rhetts_mama;3369683]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Not completely correct. In order to be a parti-carrier, the dog would have to carry the recessive gene. Not all standards carry this gene, but any dog from a line that has thrown a parti has the potential to be a carrier. That's one of the reasons more accurate and honest AKC records would be helpful to those who wish to breed only standards.

Refusing to acknowledge they exist and refusing to register them does a disservice to all breeders.

I did leave that out I'm sorry when I said Parti carrier then bred to Standard I meant to add Standard, a standard with 'no history' of carrying the recessive gene in the line.

...but then again my oh my...

...that's a genetics debate too...those whom carry the gene and have had it presented in their linage and those whom carry the gene and it has and always will remain dormant-which do you label as a carrier? Technically speaking all humans carry the recessive gene to have a tail-it is simply blocked by more dominant genes-yet on super rare occasions babies around the world are born with a slight abnormal protrusion similar to an appendage (a "tail"). No, I am not speaking of the similar occurrence of chromosomal anomaly that result in extra appendages- I am talking specifically about the "tail" gene and it presence.

Ye a HUGE debate in genetic science itself is whom to and to not label a "carrier"....but for this purpose I should have added that-sorry!

[Breezeaway]

[quote=concretegurl;3369660]

Originally Posted by Jaxx

The picture of the second Yorkie you posted is not a parti. It is a parti gene carrier.[/QUOTE
1. Ugh no. She's a Parti-if she were a carrier she'd be standard colors, look at her broken coat-she's not the dramatic representation but ask any Standard Yorkie breeder to identify her-they'd flip on anyone calling her a standard- or just a Parti carrier, a Parti carrier is scary to Standard Yorkie Breeders...which just means that a predominance of the recessive gene was brought out in that specific dog...I think they are all Yorkies the color standard just needs to be opened more, (excluding mutation-?)...just my opinion there.
2. Here's why Parti carriers scare Standard breeders (even though technically any Standard is a Parti carrier its just the term Parti Carrier is used for dog with a heavier part linage or they produce more Partis in their litters, expected litters) If she was just a carrier-she'd appear standard in coloration and then when bred to another standard, you'd see Parti's of all representations show up in the resulting pups, in a frequency indeterminable. Another misconception of Partis (that doesn't look Parti enough..but it's definitely not standard must be a carrier...uhg no.) is that they must appear dramatic as Biewers...but I'm now hearing Biewers and Partis are the same...just of different projected breeding results in the name of them having been change!
3. So glad for this thread, cleaning up simple misconceptions, learning tons, researching tons, and well this may not change any minds, present anything concrete (LOL) but it has definitely aided in many of the little things and WOW so nice everyone thus far has kept the attitude with the conversation minimal! Thanks Deb for the thread! I'm still trying to hear back from a breeder who has some old records posted on their site as to the actual text they came from so I can post a link here for reference!

The dog in the picture IS a parti carrier, I know because I own her.
That pic is Gracie when she was about 6 months old I think.
2nd is another pic of her and then a picture of her puppies she has now. She has 2 parti color and 2 carriers.

[dinkyweil]

I've looked at the pictures and tried to figure out what I can from the thread, but I guess I just need "Yorkie colors for Dummies."

Dinky is black and turning brownish more and more, and he has splash of white on his chest. So as far as I can figure out some say would say he is a Parti? some would say he is not a Parti? some would even argue that he is not a Yorkie? some would say sure he is Yorkie, he just has a white area on his chest?


I'm just curious. My feelings won't be hurt. I love him just the way he is.

and also...He has been neutered. No Dinky DNA on the loose!