Yorkshire Terrier and the Parti/Tricolor

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I just use Coat Handlers shampoo, put him in oil and wraps. I don't use a wrapping jacket at all. Radar isn't out in the sun for very long...he suns some when it's just like in the 70's or low 80's but for the most part he's in and out the doggie door LOL...he goes out when he wants and comes in when he wants along with the others LOL...

Yes I get that but when we go on vacation we are outdoors almost 12 or more hours per day.

Now hopefully we will find a house to rent, and not do the camping, but we like to hike for about 5hrs per day, and then we relax by the water, where we all swim, and do some training n stuff, then bbq outdoors, and then finally bedtime when the sun goes down.

The pups just adore that lifestyle, everyone is exhausted by the time we get home from the hikes, then we all perk up in the water, and they the dogs go crazy running in and out, and fetching n retreiving. Last summer I would use a biodegrable shampoo for Razz and he would get rinsed off in the lake water, then blowdried on the picnic table. He would almost fall asleep as I was blowdrying and rewrapping him. Of course a 15 minute nap and the pups are ready to go again. Unfortunatley we old timers are not. We usually end the day after dinner with a short walk, then pups are put to bed, and we end up reading/cough umm napping until we hit the hay.

I'd love to be able to do this everyday. but unless I win the lottery that is not going to happen anytime soon.

[Teegy]

All I know is they came from the Clydesdale Terrier being mixed with the Waterside Terrier hundreds of years ago and voila Yorkies.

Does it truly matter where they came from or how they got here.
Do we love them all the same, are they as cute as buttons and as sweet as pie.
I love my Teegy

[Rhetts_mama]

Where a breed comes from matters because it determines it's future.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

The Yorkshire Terrier is in no danger of dying out without changing the standard, so the Morgan horse analogy isn't very useful. Plus, I'm not sure why a horse that had been around for 200 years needed a standard change (rescinding the high white rule) in 1996 to keep it from dying out. Or are there other changes you are referring to?.

I'm sorry if you can't see the point I was making regarding how recessive genes and genes in general, can hide for years and then show up. This seems to be a big question in many of the naysayers minds here, "How could the parti gene just show up after so many years?" It just does!!! I tried to give an example of how it did in the Morgan breed after 50 years of trying to control the pinto genes either by enacting the 30+ year high white rule and requiring 25 years of parental verification through blood typing and DNA.

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I will say that you got me to looking around, though. Apparently, there is no separate breed club that sets the standard for the Morgans (such as the YTCA) and no overall registry (as in AKC). The Morgan horse has its own registry that sets its own standard, if I'm reading it right..

That is correct, the morgan horse has it's own registry through the American Morgan Horse Assoc., I believe most horse breed registries are run by their breed club.

The club is also open to all who want to become a member, unlike many of the dog breed clubs. All of the equine breed registries/associations I've belonged to were open to anyone who wanted to join.

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

A couple of things I did notice. If you go to the AMHA site Morgan Ideal - AMHA, right at first you'll see 2 horses that are described as 'ideal'. Neither has the large areas of white. I did see some sites that has breeders advertising 'classic' Morgans, so there are those sticking with the old standard, whether the registry does or not.

Yes, the photos of the Ideal Morgan stallion and mare are the same illustrations that have been around for years as an example of the Morgan. The Classic Morgan Admirers club tries to adhere to that old type morgan look and classic morgan foundation bloodlines.

The Western Working Morgan club focuses in on the Morgan bloodlines that were used for ranch work in the early years of the breed.

The Rainbow Morgan Club ... well, I guess you can figure that was the club that I was involved in, promotes and educates people about colorful morgans.

An "A" rated Morgan show, has classes for basically every riding division, sport horse, hunter, western, park, english pleasure, driving, in hand (conformation) and they also have a "Justin Morgan" class.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

.
Some of us parti breeders strive for color placement just as much some traditional breeders.

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

The majority of parti yorkies have either the piebald gene or extreme white piebald gene. These genes have a random and unpredictable spotting pattern, so it would be nearly impossible to set a standard indicating placement of or quantity of spotting

I'm having trouble reconciling these two posts. I'm trying to understand how you can strive for color placement in a parti when the majority of the parti yorkies have a gene that is responsible for a random and unpredictable spotting pattern that makes placement of of color impossible.

[shodanusmc]

Parti Breeders should have their dogs fixed, place the pups remaining in great homes, and strive to breed to the Standard. Why are we watering down the breed? Soon, Parti;s will start popping up more and more.....what a shame.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

Parti Breeders should have their dogs fixed, place the pups remaining in great homes, and strive to breed to the Standard. Why are we watering down the breed? Soon, Parti;s will start popping up more and more.....what a shame.

There already are more and more partis. Theyf are not goping to go away. This will have absolutley NO effect on the traditional yorkies. There are plenty of breeders that breed ONLY the traditionals.

Many other breeds allow for color variances and it has not had any adverse effect on those breeds.

There have always been and there always will be breeders who breed outside the box. If not there would only be one breed of dog.

On a side note
This thread is not about anyones personal opinions, its purpose is to post and discuss referrences on the subject.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I'm having trouble reconciling these two posts. I'm trying to understand how you can strive for color placement in a parti when the majority of the parti yorkies have a gene that is responsible for a random and unpredictable spotting pattern that makes placement of of color impossible.

As far as color goes,I do not speak for anyone else, but I breed for a colored head, I personally do not care for the all white face or half white face. I want evenly marked dogs. If I have one born all white face, those dogs are not bred again and the pup is petted out. The parents may/ or may not be bred to another dog and if it happens again they are spayed or neutered. I wait on my pups to see the results of the breeding before I breed the parents again.

[QuickSilver]

When I started on YT a few years back, Woogie Man pointed out that piebald animals are often deaf/blind if born with all white heads (I think that was it). Is this true in partis?

Breezeaway, what is your theory about the spotting if you don't think it's random? Are you saying partis aren't piebald, or that piebald coloring isn't random?

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

As far as color goes,I do not speak for anyone else, but I breed for a colored head, I personally do not care for the all white face or half white face. I want evenly marked dogs. If I have one born all white face, those dogs are not bred again and the pup is petted out. The parents may/ or may not be bred to another dog and if it happens again they are spayed or neutered. I wait on my pups to see the results of the breeding before I breed the parents again.

I'm not a breeder so maybe I am not understanding completely. I'm trying to understand this debate.

So if you are wanting evenly colored/marked dogs, are the genes of your dogs different than the genes of Pine Haven's dogs that are spotty and unpredictable which she states are impossible to standardize?

I'm not a breeder, again, but it seems to me that most of the time a blue and gold is bred to a blue and gold you get a blue and gold. The head is gold and the saddle is blue. Your blue might be off or your gold washed out too light or too red but generally speaking the head is gold and the saddle is blue. Those seem like genes that are predictable in terms of placement on the dog whereas the parti colors are not, as Pinehaven said, and I'm just wondering how you can make the colors even when the gene you are working with by its very definition is spotty/unpredictable/random.

Random means random and that is the opposite of predictable which is why I am confused.

[Breezeaway]

Breeding spotted partis, usually one piebald breed to another piebald will produce piebald. It is very hard to say though how heavy of markings you will get in a breeding as of yet. I have seen very heavily marked piebalds that have been bred together and have produced piebalds will very little spotting at all. Since each and every piebald has a unique pattern and no two are alike its very hard to guess at how the genes will come together.
There is a specific color pattern which is a little heavier than your normal piebald color of 50% white(some call Irish spotting) They are heavier on the dark color than the white.
I have not heard of any of the white faces yorkies being deaf or blind, because they do have some color on the ears or a small mark on the head somewhere.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

When I started on YT a few years back, Woogie Man pointed out that piebald animals are often deaf/blind if born with all white heads (I think that was it). Is this true in partis?

Breezeaway, what is your theory about the spotting if you don't think it's random? Are you saying partis aren't piebald, or that piebald coloring isn't random?

Deafness associated with the piebald gene was discussed in a parti thread a long time ago. It occurs most often with the extreme piebald effect or with white heads. There is no specific info on the parti Yorkshire, but the effect is well documented in other breeds. A pup may be born or become deaf in either one or both ears. A BAER test is used to determine deafness, especially in dogs with unilateral deafness. Either the piebald or double merle gene can cause this.

I suppose it should be mentioned in this thread since all things parti are being discussed. I don't think it's inherent in parti Yorkshires, but the risk is certainly there.

I don't have all my links from before, but here are a few that discuss the piebald and double merle gene in other breeds.

health issues

WHITES: IS IT WORTH THE RISKS

Health Issues Boston Terrier Dogs AKC Shows Natural Rearing

[Breezeaway]

If the Parti yorkie were to be accepted into AKC conformation shows, then a standard would have to be written for it. That would be determined by the parent club. It "could" say for instance, body no more than 70% white. Solid white faces or heads or mismarked face shall be penalized.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Deafness associated with the piebald gene was discussed in a parti thread a long time ago. It occurs most often with the extreme piebald effect or with white heads. There is no specific info on the parti Yorkshire, but the effect is well documented in other breeds. A pup may be born or become deaf in either one or both ears. A BAER test is used to determine deafness, especially in dogs with unilateral deafness. Either the piebald or double merle gene can cause this.

I suppose it should be mentioned in this thread since all things parti are being discussed. I don't think it's inherent in parti Yorkshires, but the risk is certainly there.

I don't have all my links from before, but here are a few that discuss the piebald and double merle gene in other breeds.

health issues

WHITES: IS IT WORTH THE RISKS

Health Issues Boston Terrier Dogs AKC Shows Natural Rearing

I agree the risk is there, that is why I want colored heads. I believe they should have a symmetrical colored head.

[QuickSilver]

I guess I'm still confused as to how you could avoid a fully white head if the piebald pattern is totally random. Wouldn't it just be a coin toss on every breeding?