Shipping a new puppy? Please Help!

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

You seemed to be confused about a few things, a dog does not win his championship by wining one show. If he's the only dog in a show, he doesn't win ANY points that go towards a championship. Also according to your next post, you seem to think we are saying that we think a puppy buyer should buy a dog that comes from champion stock, this is incorrect, I've been trying to say that a puppy buyer should look at the breeder and their breeding program, and what their goals are in breeding. If a breeder doesn't know what they are doing, breeding two champions won't even produce a good of an example of the breed, it takes more than champions to produce good examples, you also have to understand genetics and how to correct problems. Breeders who use lots of marketing terms are in the business of selling dogs. Good breeders could care less if you buy one their dogs, they aren't in the business of selling dogs.

I don't want to partake in saying anything negative toward kjcmsw, Nancy I really like what you said here (I bolded it). I think such a comment can go both ways for those who breed from champion lines or from non-champion lines (does anyone advertise "our pups genetics come from lines where every parent took second, seriously second isn't bad!)...I'm confused why people just looking for a pet would really concern themselves with champion lines, conversation I suppose (okay my Princess is from champion lines I wasn't seeking that, she's not "for show" she's just a descendant of petted out...I was more pleased both her parents had OFA certified heart, hips and knees honestly).

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

I don't want to partake in saying anything negative toward kjcmsw, Nancy I really like what you said here (I bolded it). I think such a comment can go both ways for those who breed from champion lines or from non-champion lines (does anyone advertise "our pups genetics come from lines where every parent took second, seriously second isn't bad!)...I'm confused why people just looking for a pet would really concern themselves with champion lines, conversation I suppose (okay my Princess is from champion lines I wasn't seeking that, she's not "for show" she's just a descendant of petted out...I was more pleased both her parents had OFA certified heart, hips and knees honestly).

YOU GET IT.........Healthy, happy, good representation of the breed.
OFA and CERF certified with CHIC #; Great. It is what is now required of dog before they can be counted in the top ranking dogs. We're on our way to having breeders be accountable for their breeding dogs.

And you're right, pet buyers aren't really interested in Champion Lines. What they are interested in is the time and devotion a breeder puts into breeding, healthy dogs and preserving the breed.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

I guess it's semantics. "champion bloodlines" or "champion-sired"/"champion grand sire" Just seems a little unreasonable for someone to state that someone who uses the term "champion bloodlines" can't be the real deal. ... So what's the term for champion grand-mothered? My pups are from grandsired champions; great; great, great; great, great, great-grand sired champions as well as on the maternal side Just would seem much easier to say "champion bloodlines" if I was so inclined I would think .... Semantics: While I agree with the poor breeding practices of those that breed exceptionally tiny Yorkies, but it's also just semantics when people say "teacup" Yorkies --- "teacup" "small" Kendra

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

I will add "champion" doesn't always mean that much either. Someone recently posted their dog/puppy won some championship but noted their dog was the only one in that category...thus a pot-bellied pig may have gave it a run for their money. ...Kendra

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

My whole point is new buyers should look at the pup they intend to buy and speak with the breeder, not concern themselves so much with all the "marketing wording" because it's really a "toe-may-toe"/ "tah-ma-toe" thing. Depending on one's locale.
Like I said, if someone asks about bloodlines, it just seems "easier" to say "champion bloodlines" and IF they want more details, then one can specify whether the pups are "champion-sired", etc ...
No one can (intelligently) say that a puppy from a breeder is not quality based strictly on a website's brief introductory wording, it's wrong to do so, it is not education, it's misleading...it's just ignorant to make statements about a particular breeder without first hand knowledge.

The other person's post about the price determines the quality is also wrong. I seriously do want my pups to go to a good and loving home first. I've made the decision to sell them for less to help assure they will be sold while young and will more readily bond to their new owner. ...
I guess I just want true and accurate "education" out there, not picking other breeders apart when someone doesn't 'personally' know anything about them or their dogs. It's wrong, it's petty, it's so junior-high school.Kendra

Well -- now I understand. I actually had the feeling you must be a breeder and were taking some of the things so personally. Now you are getting pretty insulting with your comments. I do not think anyone you are responding to is being "junior high-school" or petty and definately NOT ignorant. They are honestly saying things that can help a novice pup buyer in researching more, asking more questions and not being misled with meaningless words. You may call it just a case of semantics but I call it red flags for further research. If you are calling champion great, great, great, great, great, great grand-sired pups "champion bloodlines," then this is just what I am talking about. That far back in the family tree really is not a sales plus, saying they are champion bloodlines just makes it appear so to unexperienced buyers.

I haven't seen any of the really good breeders actually advertise at all so the terms you are now questioning don't really come up, until contact has been made with a quality breeder. I still believe if you see an ad saying "champion bloodlines" it would make me ask more questions to see if that is any valid plus or not. As to your comments about prices -- I told you the TRUTH about MY experience in MY area. If you can do everything that SHOULD be done and still sell pups for less than $1000 more power to you. Tell me -- what pre-mating testing did you do on sire and dam? Have they had full body xrays? Are they OFA-certified? What about their eyes? CERF? What were the numbers on their BATs pre & post prandial? Who did you have look at them for conformation verification? Where did you get your dam and sire? At what age do you let the pups go to new homes? What vacines have they had? What does your guarantee say? Do you agree to pay vet fees or only exchange for another pet? I feel like guarantees that make you give up a pet you have bonded with are worthless. What do you feed your pups? Where are your adults and pups housed? How much time do you interact with the puppies? All of these questions go into what I consider the quality of a pup. I NEVER said the price has anything to do with the quality of the puppy. I did say that if a breeder is doing everything right, they can't afford to sell their pups for $600! And that is a fact -- unless they are having litters of a dozen or more! I can tell you also that I went in the hole a bundle with my litter that I sold for $900 each (sold 3 and 2 went to family) -- I sold them for less, not because they were lower in quality than the $1500 parents, but because of my own lack of experience. My breeder/mentor thought I should have been asking $1200-$1500. But I figured I would work up to it and breeder experience and knowlege base was a factor in pricing.

I tell you what though -- I challenge you to show me ONE -- just one -- website where they are using the sells ploys we've discussed in this thread and selling the dogs for $600 or less that is truly a quality breeder. I would love to see one. Because I have not seen it yet and I read on here a LOT. We have to have some identifiers that cautions people against poor breeders. The red flags do not mean for sure that the person does not care -- maybe they are just uneducated or new, or misunderstand what is the right way to breed and sell yorkies. But red flags should alert people to be very careful! People are giving the truth -- true things to be vigilant about!

I do believe some make champion that have not really deserved it -- but that is true of anything in life. Some will always slip through. But if you see a breeder is breeding from a line of champions (current line not umpteen years ago) then you know she is showing. Showing allows for the verification of conformation. It is saying -- yes, this dog is worthy of breeding. One thing I would have done differently in my very brief foray into breeding, would have been to show them first. I could not travel at that time, but I plan to before and if I ever breed again. I did have two experienced breeders take a look and give me their opinions on standard before I decided to breed them. But that was not really the same. Showing also shows a dedication to the breed that often correlates to attention to details and quality care and breeding. There are exceptions to every rule -- but still you need guidelines to help make wise decisions.

Try not to be so argumentative and insulting -- it might help get your point across more effectively. Do not twist what is said. No one has spoke in such absolutes as you accuse. I have read many of your posts where it seems you have fought the ones who want to warn of unscrupulous breeders. If those warnings are hitting too close to home, maybe it is time to do a little re-evaluating of the way you breed.

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

You seemed to be confused about a few things, a dog does not win his championship by wining one show. If he's the only dog in a show, he doesn't win ANY points that go towards a championship. Also according to your next post, you seem to think we are saying that we think a puppy buyer should buy a dog that comes from champion stock, this is incorrect, I've been trying to say that a puppy buyer should look at the breeder and their breeding program, and what their goals are in breeding. If a breeder doesn't know what they are doing, breeding two champions won't even produce a good of an example of the breed, it takes more than champions to produce good examples, you also have to understand genetics and how to correct problems. Breeders who use lots of marketing terms are in the business of selling dogs. Good breeders could care less if you buy one their dogs, they aren't in the business of selling dogs.

This I am not confused about: anyone, good breeder or bad is in the business of selling dogs if they sell the dogs. Maybe they do hope to improve the breed, but at what cost? They are not keeping all their puppies, they are selling them...even if it's to support their endeavor to continue to breed/show/improve the breed/whatever, they are in the business of selling dogs to support that or whatever their reasons are. The only people NOT in the business of selling dogs are those that choose to give away their dogs. Yes, breeders do want to sell their dogs, if nothing else they'd be overrun with dogs, if they weren't they would give them away, all of them, each and everyone they chose not to keep for themselves. It's expensive to use dogs for shows, etc...breeders needs to try to recoup some of their investment...that's a fact of life/of breeding. Again, you are generalizing...speaking for all breeders.
Some people are interested in "champion stock" for their "pets" as ---- the breeders themselves are saying (essentially) "look my dog has won this or that, etc...so they are high quality" It's implied here over and over again, that the dogs that win champions are of higher quality/closer to standard...if that's true...is it???....then why wouldn't someone looking to buy a puppy be interested in it's lines, in addition to health, etc. Generally, speaking it is my belief that dogs coming from good stock generally produce puppies of good stock (though we all know not all the pups may be "good"), but according to people here if good stock doesn't matter, then it really doesn't where one purchases their puppy...can't have it both ways. either breeding/showing/etc matters or it does not.
And then it really doesn't matter how their dogs are marketed.

As far as my reference to someone's previous post about their dog being the only one in a particular category...I'm just saying that's what some people lead others/unsuspecting buyers to think a "champion" is, not that I believe their dog is a champion.

My whole point is no one should state that someone is a bad breeder for using words they might not choose to use. They might be a bad breeder for a lot of other reasons, but listing their pups coming from "championship bloodlines" is NOT one of the reasons. Don't assume a breeder isn't up to snuff unless you know them personally, have seen their puppies, spoke with them about their breeding practices, etc., etc., etc., etc.

[chachi]

Breeders that use champion lines to describe a dog with champion lines beyond the sire or the dam are just doing it for a marketing ploy and it is very common and doesnt mean a thing and hopefully knowledabe buyers know that.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by chachi

Breeders that use champion lines to describe a dog with champion lines beyond the sire or the dam are just doing it for a marketing ploy and it is very common and doesnt mean a thing and hopefully knowledabe buyers know that.

Only the first 3 generations account to the physical makeup of a pup, that is unless a single dog is used throughout the pedigree, then that dog can contribute to the genetics of pups too.

If one doesn't know how to breed correctly, a breeder can destroy the years it took in perfecting the line.

[FlDebra]

Getting back to the original posters question of shipping, I looked at some stats on shipping mishaps/mortalities Aviation Consumer Protection Division

Just looking at the last 4 monthsin the US.....11 deaths have been reported, 6 injuries and 3 losses. In the last 2 months, Delta airlines has had 6 deaths themselves! So, transporting pets as cargo is not without risks! I did not find stats on just how msny pets are being flown each month to try and figure a percentage of problems. But the numbers still looked significant to me.

Some airlines do use the regular cargo bays for pets. Some have separate areas for "live cargo." Some airlines offer 3 modes of pet transportation, in cabin, checked as baggage and checked as cargo. Most are outside during loading and unloading. A yorkie pup is not meant to take any extreme in temps. I just would not consider it at this time of year, especially to CT.

I also read a little about the professional Pet Transportation folks. Maybe this is an option if you cannot fly to meet the little one and bring her/him back with you.

[QuickSilver]

Please do not get a puppy shipped to you. There are a ton of horror stories out there, as some people here have personally experienced. The problem is that once you get the puppy, you really have no recourse if something is wrong (puppy is sick, not the one you selected, etc). Technically you can sue, but the hassle and cost of a lawsuit is not worth the time, and in the meantime, the poor puppy is in the middle of it all.

I know $1500 - $2000 is a lot of money, but you if you consider that you are getting a friend for the next ~15 years, it's not so much. Think about how much you are really paying per year, or per day for the peace of mind of having a healthy, well bred dog.

Please also consider rescue. The dogs there are usually much cheaper, and you will be giving a dog a second chance, which is priceless.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Please do not get a puppy shipped to you. There are a ton of horror stories out there, as some people here have personally experienced. The problem is that once you get the puppy, you really have no recourse if something is wrong (puppy is sick, not the one you selected, etc). Technically you can sue, but the hassle and cost of a lawsuit is not worth the time, and in the meantime, the poor puppy is in the middle of it all.

I know $1500 - $2000 is a lot of money, but you if you consider that you are getting a friend for the next ~15 years, it's not so much. Think about how much you are really paying per year, or per day for the peace of mind of having a healthy, well bred dog.

Please also consider rescue. The dogs there are usually much cheaper, and you will be giving a dog a second chance, which is priceless.

Exactly! As I said before I had a great experience getting my Princess from a referred breeder across the country, and I recommend them every chance I get-but they have turned out to be a rarity in the puppy business (they actually breed for health and temperament above all else). But it only takes one mistake and one bad experience to get an idea of how bad things can go-although I paid out the wazoo for extra airline services-ensuring my dog was never outdoors, temperature controlled "live animal cargo area" (still not sure what live animal cargo area means) paying for an airline contracting kennel to care for my dogs during the flight and a separate kennel to care for my dog during the flight stop to ensure they weren't lost-were fed, pottied, walked, kennels cleaned etc-but my Elvis came to me in poor health and later had health issues-he also showed up without the agreed upon papers, and his full vet records (he was 2 yrs when I adopted him) he has epilepsy cluster seizures-I'd have to sue the breeder I got him from and she is out of state, not to mention because our contracts were agreed on via online contract my only recourse is to send him back for a replacement puppy...how can I just send him back to someone who wasn't giving him the care she said she was and furthermore I believe she knew he had a seizure disorder (thus her never sending his complete medical records) and figured that shipping him to someone far away would be a way of unloading an ill dog, with me having little recourse other than to send him back at my cost and later taking expensive out of state legal action. I just can't recommend people get a dog from a breeder they don't know personally and haven't met and inspected the person actually does "business" as they state they do. I thought I had done it right (boy was I wrong) despite multiple phone calls and correspondence, questions and getting what I thought were honest and "good" answers: I really had no clue or way to verify anything other than what she told me herself. I wouldn't do it that way again, no matter the situation (for me it was because he was what I had been looking for and thought I had finally found-a "teapot" Parti boy at an age any health issues would be already known). One bad experience like mine cost thousands, trust me, I mean thousands beyond the just the purchase cost of your pup...veterinary bills are no joke when they start piling up...and they do very quickly.

[kjcmsw]

Good to know my pups are probably more valuable than I originally thought. I still don't think one can -- or should --- say negative things "as a fact" or even "imply" by underhanded little comments that someone couldn't produce an exceptional dog per the way they have chosen to describe that dog, or that their pups may not be of high quality because they don't support non-factual statements being thrown out willy-nilly.

And yeah, back to the original post, shipping cargo seems very risky to me also.

[Micah my love]

I believe that this time of year would have to be the very worse time for shipping and some airlines have a cutoff date due to the cold. is anyone familiar
with pet-air some of my Biewers were sent pet-air out of Germany and it was a nonstop flight to Cinncinati and we picked them up there.

I have shipped and recieved in the US & Canada with out any problems but i have learned a lot since being here at YT for sometime now and would be a bit more picky about how, where & when they would be flying

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Micah my love

I believe that this time of year would have to be the very worse time for shipping and some airlines have a cutoff date due to the cold. is anyone familiar
with pet-air some of my Biewers were sent pet-air out of Germany and it was a nonstop flight to Cinncinati and we picked them up there.

I have shipped and recieved in the US & Canada with out any problems but i have learned a lot since being here at YT for sometime now and would be a bit more picky about how, where & when they would be flying

There are a couple of people that work for the airlines that are very experienced in transporting dogs in cabin. They are a bit pricey though, but well worth it as they hand deliver the pups.

[2Morkies]

If the breeder uses "Pet Air" which is climate controled and totally designed for pets then I think it's just fine. Just ask which method the breeder uses.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by 2Morkies

If the breeder uses "Pet Air" which is climate controled and totally designed for pets then I think it's just fine. Just ask which method the breeder uses.

Pet Air would be ideal, but it only has a few locations on where they'll fly into.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

This I am not confused about: anyone, good breeder or bad is in the business of selling dogs if they sell the dogs. Maybe they do hope to improve the breed, but at what cost? They are not keeping all their puppies, they are selling them...even if it's to support their endeavor to continue to breed/show/improve the breed/whatever, they are in the business of selling dogs to support that or whatever their reasons are. The only people NOT in the business of selling dogs are those that choose to give away their dogs. Yes, breeders do want to sell their dogs, if nothing else they'd be overrun with dogs, if they weren't they would give them away, all of them, each and everyone they chose not to keep for themselves. It's expensive to use dogs for shows, etc...breeders needs to try to recoup some of their investment...that's a fact of life/of breeding. Again, you are generalizing...speaking for all breeders.
Some people are interested in "champion stock" for their "pets" as ---- the breeders themselves are saying (essentially) "look my dog has won this or that, etc...so they are high quality" It's implied here over and over again, that the dogs that win champions are of higher quality/closer to standard...if that's true...is it???....then why wouldn't someone looking to buy a puppy be interested in it's lines, in addition to health, etc. Generally, speaking it is my belief that dogs coming from good stock generally produce puppies of good stock (though we all know not all the pups may be "good"), but according to people here if good stock doesn't matter, then it really doesn't where one purchases their puppy...can't have it both ways. either breeding/showing/etc matters or it does not.
And then it really doesn't matter how their dogs are marketed.

As far as my reference to someone's previous post about their dog being the only one in a particular category...I'm just saying that's what some people lead others/unsuspecting buyers to think a "champion" is, not that I believe their dog is a champion.

My whole point is no one should state that someone is a bad breeder for using words they might not choose to use. They might be a bad breeder for a lot of other reasons, but listing their pups coming from "championship bloodlines" is NOT one of the reasons. Don't assume a breeder isn't up to snuff unless you know them personally, have seen their puppies, spoke with them about their breeding practices, etc., etc., etc., etc.

I'm not sure I said someone was a bad breeder for using those words, I usually advise puppy buyers to avoid such breeders though. I personally do not think you need to speak to a breeder, know them "personally" or see their puppies to believe that they are a bad breeder, perhaps you need to do all of this and more, to know if someone is a "good" breeder, but in my opinion, someone can qualify as a bad breeder if they only have one strike against them. For example, breeders who sell directly from the website, this is such a gross vialotion of what I believe is in the best interest of the pups, that nothing else they could do, would make me think they were a good breeder. A dog being sold, without intensive interviews of the puppy buyer, is never in the best interest of the dog. Again, not saying anyone here does this, my point is that it takes much more information to know if someone is a good breeder than it does to know that they are a bad breeder. To many bad breeders have learned to "talk the talk."