Tail docking

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by friscomom

Props to you alison, and dustmop, and others, for voicing chided opinions wherever and however you did, and speaking up for those unable to speak for themselves.

Poking around the internet, it seems to me the more people know about these questionable practices, the more people discuss and question them, and once the answers are in, the more people oppose them.

It also does appear that this tide has already turned and the AKC, whoever they are, is probably not far behind. I'm surprised we haven't heard here from more forward-thinking breeders here. As Brooklynn pointed out - it's really just all about market demand and bottom lines. Those profiting from animal industries who hold to these archaic 17th century-type belief systems will soon be giving way to modern consciousness, which will not tolerate atrocities, just to stay in business. One suggestion might be to start breeding yorkies with proper tails; purportedly a genetic weakness was left unchecked, some rainy day in England way back when.

Here is a GREAT news article - when folks care a little bit more about animal welfare than about their jobs and mortgages, that is love, and that's a world I feel good about, where all dogs can wag their tails proudly. Many might be familiar with the saying, 'As goes California...' By ANNA SCHECTER Jan. 26, 2010
WATCH: Hidden Camera Video of Tail Docking - ABC News

I hope the 'standards' camp will also think it over, because I wouldn't buy a dog whose tail was indiscriminately chopped off, and neither will anybody whose decision I am able to influence. Given a CHOICE in the market, I know where I'll lay my money.

Thats just it, I'm willing to give you a CHOICE! Please allow the rest of us the same consideration.

By the way, the video is about docking a cows tail, lets not compare this to a dog.

[QuickSilver]

friscomom, if you remain here on YT (and I hope you do), I think you'll see that with a few notable exceptions, breeders here are not in it for the money. Most of us are pretty nice, even if we don't agree on everything.

Nancy1999, I think you understand that for people who are really against docking, it's not a legitimate choice. I'm reminded of that weird poster a while back who kept making jokes about removing his/her yorkie's rear legs, because they thought those little dog carts were so cute. Obviously no one thought that was a matter of personal preference!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

friscomom, if you remain here on YT (and I hope you do), I think you'll see that with a few notable exceptions, breeders here are not in it for the money. Most of us are pretty nice, even if we don't agree on everything.

Nancy1999, I think you understand that for people who are really against docking, it's not a legitimate choice. I'm reminded of that weird poster a while back who kept making jokes about removing his/her yorkie's rear legs, because they thought those little dog carts were so cute. Obviously no one thought that was a matter of personal preference!

Honestly, I really don't get it, I do not understand how they can use the word "cruel" in this situation. I think it's a lot of propaganda being passed by people who want to control others. All you have to do is use a few buzzwords and people will jump on the bandwagon. These people who are so against it, have they really studied it? Have they talked to breeders or vets who know how to do it correctly? Or have they talked to only those who are against it? The OP didn't even know about it until last night, yet she's vehemently opposed, how can she even decide on an issue in such a short time unless she's thinking with her emotions in a knee-jerk response? Like I said earlier I wish that there were restrictions, on who could do it, and what age, but no one's trying to pass those laws, they just want to outlaw it. I guess I'm choosing to believe the word of those people who have studied it as well as those who have experience doing it.

[QuickSilver]

You really can't understand why people are opposed?

I'm sure you know that many veterinarians oppose this procedure, presumably vets are people who have witnessed or performed tail dockings.

The simple fact is that practices change. "Culling" used to mean the breeder killed any puppies that were clearly not going to make standard. There was a highly controversial documentary that aired in the UK (you probably know which one I'm talking about) which showed a breeder complaining about the fact that vets would no longer "cull" for her - she was forced to kill her sub-standard pups herself. I imagine most of us would be horrified by this know (at least, I hope people are), but fifty years ago, it was taken for granted.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying people MUST agree with me, but surely you can see where the opposing side is coming from.

[Wylie's Mom]

I just have to say, I think this thread is one of the most interesting and thought provoking I've ever read here, honestly .

These kinds of discussions are so important and it's such a privilege to hear all of these different opinions, from all sides.

I've been thinking about this thread all day. It does bother me to think of a painful medical procedure being done if it's purely cosmetic (vs. therapeutic/clinically necessary). However, I feel like I need to learn/understand a lot more because my opinion is not informed or well-rounded on this issue...which is why I appreciate those who are sharing their knowledge here .

[TwoforFun]

Some vets here in Houston will deny the procedure. If I had a choice my baby would have a tail but she doesn't. I just hope it was a professional person who did it.

[QuickSilver]

Oh, I meant to make a suggestion for the breeders here who either dock their pups tails, or have the vet do it - why not make a video for uTube showing how it's done? If the pups show mild distress, you can also film them getting their nails cut or something else, and demonstrate that they don't seem bothered.

The only vids I've seen show the pups acting *very* distressed, and that weighed against assurances that it's not really painful, well, seeing is believing.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I just have to say, I think this thread is one of the most interesting and thought provoking I've ever read here, honestly .

These kinds of discussions are so important and it's such a privilege to hear all of these different opinions, from all sides.

I've been thinking about this thread all day. It does bother me to think of a painful medical procedure being done if it's purely cosmetic (vs. therapeutic/clinically necessary). However, I feel like I need to learn/understand a lot more because my opinion is not informed or well-rounded on this issue...which is why I appreciate those who are sharing their knowledge here .

THank you for allowing the thread to continue It's been rather an interesting and an adult debate.
Like I've stated before if it's done correctly its not harmful to the dog. I would never as a breeder put my yorkies at risk if I knew it was going to be determental to their health.
I look at this way...docking a tail hurts a minute and the dog forgets about it almost as soon as it's over with vs. a dog that is not bred for the right reasons and has to live with MVD or Liver shunt and go through major surgery and still not sure whether or not it will survive or having to live with LP and I know LP can be developed from an injury more so than being genetic in my opinion. I just think there are more serious things to be taking on than whether someone thinks docking is something that is cruel. What I think is cruel is not breeding for the right reasons and someone being a puppymill or byb or doing this strictly for the money. Those are things I think are more important than something that is not hurting emotionally or physically in the long run. Of course this is my opinion.
I feel more sorry for all those poor breeding bitches and sires in small cages in a puppymill sitting in their own feces and urine and cranking out puppies just because it supplies their bank accounts. That is something I would worry more about than tail docking.
That sickens me because those are the dogs that suffer :*(

Donna

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

THank you for allowing the thread to continue It's been rather an interesting and an adult debate.
Like I've stated before if it's done correctly its not harmful to the dog. I would never as a breeder put my yorkies at risk if I knew it was going to be determental to their health.
I look at this way...docking a tail hurts a minute and the dog forgets about it almost as soon as it's over with vs. a dog that is not bred for the right reasons and has to live with MVD or Liver shunt and go through major surgery and still not sure whether or not it will survive or having to live with LP and I know LP can be developed from an injury more so than being genetic in my opinion. I just think there are more serious things to be taking on than whether someone thinks docking is something that is cruel. What I think is cruel is not breeding for the right reasons and someone being a puppymill or byb or doing this strictly for the money. Those are things I think are more important than something that is not hurting emotionally or physically in the long run. Of course this is my opinion.
I feel more sorry for all those poor breeding bitches and sires in small cages in a puppymill sitting in their own feces and urine and cranking out puppies just because it supplies their bank accounts. That is something I would worry more about than tail docking.
That sickens me because those are the dogs that suffer :*(

Donna

Well said Donna.

[ellaYORKIE]

I really have no business saying anything, but the moment i saw this thread and read what the poster was saying i knew it was going to cause some controversy between people. I respect everyone's opinions and am open to hearing what others have to say. For the record, i really do not feel that voicing your own opinion is being close minded at all. Anyway, i have had a yorkie w/ a long tail and sadly she passed away and now i have Ella and her tail is docked. I think it is okay to dock the tail is your trying to follow the standard. Ultimately it's up to the breeder or the person your buy your pup off of. Unless you are the breeder and in that case it's your choice. I suppose if maybe you tell the breeder you want the taill left then maybe they can, but IDK. I don't love Ella less b/c she has no tail and i didn't love my other yorkie any more b/c she had a tail. =]

[MaddiesMommie]

I have to say, this is an issue I have never really thought a lot about. I actually don't know what to say other than I do like Oreo's. haha

I have been reading pages of information about tail docking. I found everything from when done correctly, sleeping puppies will not wake up to this is the cruel practice of cutting off an animal's body part.

One site even gave a description comparing banding a tail to clamping an umbilical cord.

I have come to the conclusion I am not convinced that when done correctly, and not with kitchen scissors, it is painful to the puppy.

There certainly are 'bigger fish to fry' but this also an issue I think is worth discussing. I have no personal preference. When searching for Maddie, I didn't even ask about her tail. IF she had a tail, it would just be more to love I guess.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Oh, I meant to make a suggestion for the breeders here who either dock their pups tails, or have the vet do it - why not make a video for uTube showing how it's done? If the pups show mild distress, you can also film them getting their nails cut or something else, and demonstrate that they don't seem bothered.

The only vids I've seen show the pups acting *very* distressed, and that weighed against assurances that it's not really painful, well, seeing is believing.

I dont do my own tails as I leave that up to the vet who is very qualified...but I dont think my vet would allow a video camera in the room. But if and when I learn how I think I might video tape it so you can see how it's done. Of course there will be some pain and discomfort just like it is when an infant child receives vacc for diseases. Some babies scream when that needle is put into their little legs but soon it's over with and with love and attention the pain disappears with a mother's comfort and love just like the momma yorkie would do for her babies. Everytime I've had puppies tails docked by the time I get home they have been loved and comforted by momma and nursing eagerlly and soon sound to sleep with full bellies. I've never experienced any lasting affects once they are back with mom in their crate on the ride home. How can that be construed as being harmful to their health. Again, I want to stress my yorkies are my life, my sanity and if I really felt it was harming them it wouldn't be done as I would do for my own children. I had my infant daughter years ago get her ears pierced yes it hurt but within minutes of my comforting her it was like less than 5 minutes she was laughing and wanting to play. All forgotten

I still personally feel there are far more worse things to worry about than docking a tail. I am not against a yorkie having a tail as I love all dogs and animals.
I will say this...I think the cropping of ears are far worse than tail docking but I do prefer a dobie with cropped ears as that is what makes the dobie! I also prefer a boxer with cropped ears but they are just as cute with floppy ears. Dobies and Danes just look more beautiful and regal and more alert with cropped ears....but wouldn't be against not cropping the ears. I feel that is more painful than docking as they don't crop until the pups are older vs. a yorkie having tails docked at a much younger age. I hjope that made some sense.

Donna

[Brooklynn]

I've had yorkies cry more when giving shots and clipping toe tails and I've never even cut into the quick when clipping nails more than I have with docking the tails.

[nsyorkies]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

THank you for allowing the thread to continue It's been rather an interesting and an adult debate.
Like I've stated before if it's done correctly its not harmful to the dog. I would never as a breeder put my yorkies at risk if I knew it was going to be determental to their health.
I look at this way...docking a tail hurts a minute and the dog forgets about it almost as soon as it's over with vs. a dog that is not bred for the right reasons and has to live with MVD or Liver shunt and go through major surgery and still not sure whether or not it will survive or having to live with LP and I know LP can be developed from an injury more so than being genetic in my opinion. I just think there are more serious things to be taking on than whether someone thinks docking is something that is cruel. What I think is cruel is not breeding for the right reasons and someone being a puppymill or byb or doing this strictly for the money. Those are things I think are more important than something that is not hurting emotionally or physically in the long run. Of course this is my opinion.
I feel more sorry for all those poor breeding bitches and sires in small cages in a puppymill sitting in their own feces and urine and cranking out puppies just because it supplies their bank accounts. That is something I would worry more about than tail docking.
That sickens me because those are the dogs that suffer :*(

Donna

I strongly agree with everything you have said except for '' docking a tail hurts a minute and the dogs forgets about it almost as soon as it's over with" from my experience it is tender for about a week. I don't know if everyone( I know some of you have) has read the posts to "dock or not" where I posted a youtube video of a tail docking, I posted a couple of days ago. I think it is worth watching!

I also loved the quote (in someones signature) "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. Immanuel Kant " Very appropriate for this post I must say.

I also love Yorkitalk, the discussion has been very intelligent and thought provoking! I think I might just leave my next litters tail un docked and see how it goes!!!!

[MyPann]

Originally Posted by Britster

You shouldn't take offense, it's really not that serious. I'm not calling you dumb. I did read through the rest of your posts and I just can't find any of those reasons good enough to cut off their tails. Everyone has their own opinions, obviously and there's no right or wrong.

I have known A LOT of dogs throughout my life, all of whom had tails, and they have never had ANY of the issues you posted with tails. I just don't think it's big enough of issues to dock a tail or every breed would've ended up having a docked tail throughout the years. Sure, my aunt's Pit Bull has a strong tail when he wags it, but I don't think it's good enough reason to not HAVE it.

I would probably think that 99% or 100% of our yorkies on this website are NOT official rat hunters or working dogs. So I just don't see that to validate docking tails.

I mean, it is done purely for cosmetic reasons to appease to a human standard. I don't see how anyone can argue that? And that's the reason I don't agree with it.

I don't see docking as cruel necessarily. I don't think it's ever traumatized a dog for life or anything and yeah, they forget it right after. My issue with it is that it's simply to appease the human eye.

I'm sorry if you took my posts offensively, it's just something I feel strongly about, just as you feel strongly that we should dock tails.

Don't tell Pann that lol he thinks it's wabbit season!


...on another note I'm not in favor of tail docking, I tried to get to Pann before his was done but by the time we fell in love it was to late BUT I am not against it either. I think they look beautiful both ways and at one point there was a reason for it maybe there's no reason now and it's time to think about a change and maybe not; but if someone is truly against it and decides to get their pup from a reputable breeder I bet that a simple request to the breeder and they would prob be willing to leave your future love unaltered. Just a thought tho