Tail docking

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Kayceeh http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/ima...s/viewpost.gif
If you keep 2 pups out of two litters a year then you're certainly a rare breed yourself Good on you but I seriously doubt many breeders do the same.

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Most of the exhibitor/breeders that I know operate the way I do. We breed for ourselves, with no intention of fulfilling a pet market. Those that breed to sell puppies more than likely will make money. However, those that do it correctly, breeding the best representation of the breed, performing all the necessary tests, prior to breeding and putting all the money back into their dogs will never make money and will operate in the red. And then there is the cost of Championing those dogs we keep......traveling, grooming and entry fees can be very expensive.

I can attest to this. That is the way my dogs' exhibitor/breeder operates -- keeps a lot of her pups and puts all her money back into her dogs.

What are the chances that I, knowing nothing about finding a good breeder, would stumble onto a person like this if they were a rarity? Not likely.

[topknot]

Originally Posted by Maximo

[/I]

I can attest to this. That is the way my dogs' exhibitor/breeder operates -- keeps a lot of her pups and puts all her money back into her dogs.

What are the chances that I, knowing nothing about finding a good breeder, would stumble onto a person like this if they were a rarity? Not likely.

You are so lucky to find a great breeder. Most of the breeder/exhibitors I know of do put everyting back into our dogs, since we want the best for them. We are serious about what we do and want to make sure our dogs have the best. We use good food, good care - (my vet is not the best on prices, but is knowledge and care it the best around and worth every penny), good grooming supplies, and we put a lot of work and time into our dogs. Why, because we love them and really do care about them.

[Kayceeh]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Regarding the comparison of why it's acceptable for an owner/vet to make assessments on pain and suffering in the case of having an animal put down, but the same principle doesn't apply to docking tails.

That was the "point" I was referring to, in case you truly are interested. However, like I said in my previous post, it is clear that our lines of logic are on opposite ends of the spectrum, and I doubt anything would be achieved from any further discussion on this matter...so don't feel obligated.

Oh it's absolutely no trouble at all. I have plenty of time, so again if you'd like to point out where I stated "All breeders" I'll be more than happy to correct that.


Let's see.

why it's acceptable for an owner/vet to make assessments on pain and suffering in the case of having an animal put down, but the same principle doesn't apply to docking tails.

When an animal is suffering to the point of having no quality of life and no chance of getting any better. In other words they're basically going to vegitate and maybe even starve to death and the vet through his experience, training and the ability to do all the necessary tests, advises , then it's for the good of the animal itself, not the owner but the animal.
IF and I repeat IF a vet were to advise docking, why?
Would it be for the good of the animal? Is it because the animal needs it's tail chopped to be able to balance correctly? maybe it needs it's tail chopped to be able to run faster? I think not. There are no benefits to docking for the animal itself. The only benefits are for the breeder. That's the difference, there is no comparisson if you are looking at the benefits of the animal itself.

[red98vett]

Well this thread could be published as a book ! Very interesting - all sides.

I had some replies but with my senility these days forgot to who after reading this all

I'm a peon but throw in my 2 cents - I have 2 with docked tails. I love the 'look' personally but also love full tails.

Chanel has a perfect docked tail while my youngest Cheri was done too short but man can it go like a little buzzsaw.....I always wondered how much it hurts and have heard when done properly and within days of birth the pain is minimal (I could NOT watch any of the videos) - but then again - I've never witnessed it so can't be sure.

I do know this - NO ONE who loves dogs would intentionally hurt them. If it caused unbelievable pain - I would think the practice would have ended a long time ago....

'altering' body parts has been practiced by humans for centuries....I think it was Japapese women who would have their feet 'docked' so they'd look 'dainty' .....and after having my own foot surgery - I know for a fact that had to be VERY painful - yet it was done by their own mothers.....look at african tribes and their practices - YIKES - some of the lip rings etc are almost too painful to even look at - yet it's been done for ages...

We all know dogs can't speak for themselves - that's a given - but I've always felt that breeding / labor must be one of the more painful things a female dog will ever experience yet this is accepted all over the world and for good reasons - we love dogs. I know it isn't the same thing - but it IS painful

Docking tails may be banned in parts of the world and it may be un-necessary but it's done ....I would never fault those who are against it just as much as I would never fault those who are for it.

I DO agree that I wish as much passion was put towards stopping Puppy Mills and all the other things that I consider abusive (dogs tied up in yards - living in cages 24/7 or worse..... living OUTDOORS in cages)....Sorry - off the subject but it was brought up a few times) ----- There is so much animal cruelty in the world that seems to never end - and in my opinion only - docking tails docking tails doesn't come close to the cruelty some inflict on animals (I include ALL animals in this statement)

I'm NOT including the jerks who try to do it and really do hurt the puppies -to me that's just wrong and it should only be done by someone who knows exactly what they're doing....but - it's something that's been done over the years. IF it stopped and was totally banned - great - if continued - in my opinion only - I still can't look at it as 'abuse'.

ps Ann - I missed that Mill Raid - IF I had seen it when you posted you KNOW you would have seen all my clapping hand smilies ! That's awesome to read they stepped in again (the aspca)

and ps to some of the newer people - We HAVE had some pretty long puppy mill discussions in the past - This year it does seem the passion is missing on this board but believe me - some of us still have big mouths and DO speak up.

ok - I just wrote a mini-book and didn't mean too ! But the discussion was very interesting - I didn't know about the topknot stuff either ! I thought it was just because they have such long hair and long ago someone decided it was beautiful to keep that long hair on their heads

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Kayceeh

again if you'd like to point out where I stated "All breeders" I'll be more than happy to correct that.

Originally Posted by jencar98

for show breeders and a few others here, it's not really about selling puppies. So, I don't think they are apprehensive about not being able to sell puppies with full tails.

Your response to that:

Originally Posted by Kayceeh

Sorry but I disagree wholeheartedly as to it not being about selling and at the end of the day dollar signs. If breeders were told tommorow that Yorkies with tails are now selling for big bucks, bigger than Yorkies with docked tails, then I'd bet my bottom dollar that just about all would stop the practice.

jencar98, as well as several others tried to explain that is not the case for ALL breeders. You responded by stating that you disagreed. Not all breeders..."just about all breeders."

Originally Posted by Kayceeh

I believe breeders base their decisions on docking because of supply and demand and as I stated earlier I would bet my bottom dollar that if full tail pups sold for higher bucks than docked tailed pups, then the situation would rapidly change

Again, if you believed their were exceptions to the rule, you didn't indicate it in your posts. So naturally, people are going to interpret your comments to encompass ALL breeders.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Well, if you mean "naturally shorter" then yes, but it can't be "naturally docked" because docking means cutting the tip. That's what good breeders do, they pick traits and breed for them. If docking is ever banned, I imagine breeders would take the tail more into account when breeding, I'm sure some yorkies have naturally longer tails than others, just as some have naturally larger ears. I have seen pictures of yorkies whos tails were longer than their bodies. I'm curious to know the average length of an undocked tail in relation to body length.

There could be problems breeding dogs with extremely short tails from what I've read, some of these dogs have a condition related to spinal bifida. So again you would want to proceed with caution and do studies and research before you decide to breed for this.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Well, Jackson's body is around 10-11" from neck to the base of tail. His tail is probably around 8-9" long, I would imagine. But the tail is a guesstimate.

I didn't know anything about the short tail thing, wow!

[Kayceeh]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Your response to that:


jencar98, as well as several others tried to explain that is not the case for ALL breeders. You responded by stating that you disagreed. Not all breeders..."just about all breeders."



Again, if you believed their were exceptions to the rule, you didn't indicate it in your posts. So naturally, people are going to interpret your comments to encompass ALL breeders.

One really shouldn't assume. I did not say "All breeders" so interpret as you may, you are assuming. It was not said and I don't appreciate you stating that I had said it.
I stand by my statement. I really do believe that if they sold for more with full tails, then the practice would stop. I also believe there are many good breeders out there but again I honestly believe that there is no reason to dock, only that it's considered more acceptable to buyers, which is humanly selfish. If you can give me one good reason for the animal itself I will reconsider but for now all I'm reading is very selfish "human" reasons to continue it. It hasn't been banned in other countries for "no reason". I think the USA is way behind the times here.

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by Kayceeh

One really shouldn't assume. I did not say "All breeders" so interpret as you may, you are assuming. It was not said and I don't appreciate you stating that I had said it.
I stand by my statement. I really do believe that if they sold for more with full tails, then the practice would stop. I also believe there are many good breeders out there but again I honestly believe that there is no reason to dock, only that it's considered more acceptable to buyers, which is humanly selfish. If you can give me one good reason for the animal itself I will reconsider but for now all I'm reading is very selfish "human" reasons to continue it. It hasn't been banned in other countries for "no reason". I think the USA is way behind the times here.

I always thought some animals had long tails to swat flys with (like cows) and we all know we'd never let a fly land on our yorkies butts

(KIDDING and shutting up right now !)

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Kayceeh

One really shouldn't assume. I did not say "All breeders" so interpret as you may, you are assuming. It was not said and I don't appreciate you stating that I had said it.

If I said "Yorkie owners are stupid"...I believe everyone would 'assume' I meant ALL Yorkie owners unless I made a effort to point out exceptions.

You're right, you said "breeders" without any indication that you thought there were exceptions to the rule. You asked for clarification, I answered. I don't appear to be the only one that felt that way. Everyone can read what EXACTLY you said for themselves.

[Kayceeh]

Originally Posted by red98vett

I always thought some animals had long tails to swat flys with (like cows) and we all know we'd never let a fly land on our yorkies butts

(KIDDING and shutting up right now !)

Well there you go, an excellent reason to leave the tails as nature intended

[Kayceeh]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

. Everyone can read what EXACTLY you said for themselves.

They surely can

[topknot]

Okay - from what I have read in some places the history of yorkies were used as ratters. Reason for the tails to be docked was so that the tails would not get nibbled on. I am not sure how true this is, but only what I have read. I have also read they were used in coal mines as a sort of canary - to show the lowering amount of oxygen in the mines over the day. Not sure which one is truth or they both could be - just what I learned from reading. But does explain the beginng of docking the yorkies' tail. Then I read on the site, Council for Docking Tails, that many breeds that have docked tails were also continued to be docked for reasons of safety while going through the brush to prevent injuries and another reason for hygiene - since feces seem to get hung up on the long tail hair and plug this area, thus could clog anal glands and cause further problems.
I personally like both: long and docked tails, just use to the docked look. But would not mind a long tail. I had a maltese back in the 80s - malteses have long tails. But the standard guidelines would need to be changed and I just do not think at this time or in the near future they will change it.

[Wylie's Mom]

You people are fascinating !

Thank you all for contributing so much to this thread ...I'm learning so much, and it's making me think about so much more than just this topic, it's really thought provoking. Thanks too for remaining cool .

Bama, I'm contacting Websters about adding "confudling" to the dictionary, bc I'm quite confudled, fairly often .

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Bama, I'm contacting Websters about adding "confudling" to the dictionary, bc I'm quite confudled, fairly often .

LOL...me too!

[mommadog1]

QUOTE=red98vett

I do know this - NO ONE who loves dogs would intentionally hurt them. If it caused unbelievable pain - I would think the practice would have ended a long time ago....
I couldn't agree more!!

'altering' body parts has been practiced by humans for centuries....I think it was Japapese women who would have their feet 'docked' so they'd look 'dainty' .....and after having my own foot surgery - I know for a fact that had to be VERY painful - yet it was done by their own mothers.....look at african tribes and their practices - YIKES - some of the lip rings etc are almost too painful to even look at - yet it's been done for ages...

It's actually called footbinding and was practiced up until the early 20th century..about 1911..and is a very interesting subject. I did some studies on it awhile back. It was the Chinese who did this and it was horribly painful.The reason it was done would floor you, but it is very interesting to read about. I watched a documentary on it first then I read all I could because it fascinated me.. Check out these links.
Kinu No Michi :: Footbinding
Painful Memories for China's Footbinding Survivors : NPR
Chinese Foot Binding - Lotus Shoes


We all know dogs can't speak for themselves - that's a given - but I've always felt that breeding / labor must be one of the more painful things a female dog will ever experience yet this is accepted all over the world and for good reasons - we love dogs. I know it isn't the same thing - but it IS painful

Docking tails may be banned in parts of the world and it may be un-necessary but it's done ....I would never fault those who are against it just as much as I would never fault those who are for it.

I DO agree that I wish as much passion was put towards stopping Puppy Mills and all the other things that I consider abusive (dogs tied up in yards - living in cages 24/7 or worse..... living OUTDOORS in cages)....Sorry - off the subject but it was brought up a few times) ----- There is so much animal cruelty in the world that seems to never end - and in my opinion only - docking tails docking tails doesn't come close to the cruelty some inflict on animals (I include ALL animals in this statement)

I think that people are discouraged because no matter how hard we all try to get mills closed it continues. One will be shut down and 5 more started up. Only way to even begin to stop it is to close commercial kennels and limit the amount the dogs you can have, like here it is 50 dogs of breeding age.